Fat Shaming: Drawing the line.

MoreBean13

I really dislike Victoria's Secret. The only have one type of model - tall, very very thin with very long waists and little to no muscle tone. Some of them have surprisingly large busts considering breasts are mostly made of fat.

Their top models have said how they are always watching what they eat, working out for hours a day and living off liquid diets for weeks before they have shows/photos - and even then the photographs are photoshopped to death - which really irks me more than anything, as these women put so much hard work into their figures. But I guess the pay makes up for it.

The underwear is also far too expensive for stuff that looks so cheap.

Is silicone some kind of fat?

ETA: I actually disagree about them having no muscle tone, too. VS models are generally much more fit than high fashion models- they're actually kind of big in the modeling world. And, all professional photos are photoshopped.

yourenotmine

All the half nekkid touching is making me uncomfortable.

RonnieLodge

According to the World Health Organisation and National Health and Medical Research Council, for most people, no matter how tall they are, if the waist measurement is more than 80cm for women and 94cm for men they are at an increased risk of some lifestyle related chronic diseases e.g Type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease and some cancers.

toddis

It seems to me the more square footage on a body the more soap one would need and therefore Dove should be on board with large people. The larger the better.

RonnieLodge

That is why I find VS (and a lot of the fashion world) so weird, irritating and depressing - even with genetically blessed people dedicating hours every day to working out and watching what they eat, having breast implants put in and then a whole team of professionals doing their hair, lighting and makeup for a photo or a show - they STILL get photoshopped.

The untouched photos can't look that bad!

meshashesha2012

This is really a cultural thing, I would never dare call my American friends "fat" or even utter the word in their presence because everyone is so damn sensitive and it's ridiculous. I have no such problem with my Italian/Greek/Turkish/Chinese friends, in these cultures if you're fat it's a fact of life, not an insult meant to bring shame on you and your family. But yes if we're considering Americans I would just not weigh in (outside of MFP haha) on what I think someone ought to weight

it's a new american thing. basically some women are no longer being told via the media that they are the most beautiful and the most desirable so NOW unrealistic advertising is a problem. it's only a problem when they aren't being validated but they were totally fine with it when they were :laugh:

trust me, we're not all that sensitive

Acg67

That said, everyone has their own goals in mind. There are big-boned people out there who are going to be curvy no matter how much they try, their bodies can become healthy but not model-thin. There are a lot of people who don't even believe model-thin is the way to be, and a full-bodied (though not obese) shape is the way to go.

MoreBean13

It seems to me the more square footage on a body the more soap one would need and therefore Dove should be on board with large people. The larger the better.

Good logic. But, I have to shower 2x as much when I'm working out every day, so more soap for active people?

AntWrig

I will actually start caring, when I starting reaching my goals for everyone else. Who gives a **** what other think? Instead of complaining about "fat shaming", how about you lift something? One is only shamed if they allow to be shamed.

RhonndaJ

Some people try to discount the importance of the impact of advertising by saying 'they're just trying to sell a product'.

There's nothing wrong with that statement, both VS and Dove are trying to market their products. But comparatively I think Dove's marketing is hugely better that VS's.

VS markets on fantasy. Their models represent only a tiny percentage of women in the Western world. This type of advertising has been shown to impact how young girls perceive themselves and others.

Dove markets on 'real'. Their models represent a greater number of women in the Western world. I don't know if this type of advertising has been studied to see it's impact on the mindset of younger generations, but I'd certainly be interested to read anything that's been done.

What appeals to me about Dove's marketing, is exactly what they want to appeal. I can see myself as those models, where the VS models are an impossibility. They're selling to 'me' not some 'fantasy'.

Thing is, their marketing doesn't work on me. I can't buy VS products and I don't by Dove products, simply because I prefer other products.

I know there will be people who say that the VS models are fitter and healthier, just because they are visually thinner. But when it comes down it, I don't know if that's true, or not.

Not all models live a healthy, fit lifestyle. In fact, historically speaking, fashion models have been forced to live an extremely unhealthy lifestyle to fit into the extreme expectations of the media. At the same time, the models in the Dove ad probably do fall into the overweight/obese category, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't both healthy and fit.

When it comes to fat shaming... I don't see that in ads. I do see it in people's perception of the models in those ads. And I see it on these boards a great deal when people refer negatively to their present selves, or their former selves.

pullipgirl

Isn't dove owned by unilever that also owns axe that uses victoria's secret model type bodies to sell their product.

lorenzoinlr

sorry but how is someone expressing their opinions and preferences the same as fat shaming?


i think many people on here need to understand that just because someone says they find one type shape attractive doesnt mean they are denigrating any other shapes.

not everyone is going to like you, your personality, how you look, how you talk etc. that's called life and living on a planet with billions of other people.

i also think many of the people who feel they are being shamed need to take a step back and look into how much of their own issues they are projecting on to the issue and stop trying to make other people responsible for their own sensitivities. after all, if someone pushes your buttons, you have to remember that they are YOUR buttons, created by you...


PS by you i mean the general you, not the OP

Great post!!! Possibly the best I've seen here on MFP.

acogg

You think fat is bad? Just wait till you are old. Fat is better than old, worse is being fat AND old. My everyday plan is this: Get out of bed, look your best, be your best and try to improve the world.

_KATzMeow

How about we stop body shaming period. I've seen people bash on every body type. Fat, skinny, muscular, doesn't matter. I may not like looking at a specific body type, but I'm an adult and can keep my comments to myself.

ETA: We shouldn't be concerned with how our friends look either. We each do our own thing and one day maybe we can be a good example to our friends when it comes to general health, not body type.

well said

clarkeje1

I don't think its about how you look as much as its about your BMI, blood pressure, body fat % etc. You can be healthy and not look like a Victoria Secret model and that is perfectly fine. Its NOT ok to be "fat"/unhealthy/high risk for diabetes etc.

supplemama

I wonder, what's so wrong with 'fat-shaming'? I became obese due to shameful behaviors such as gluttony and sloth. I don't know how other people got fat, but that is how I got fat. Stuffing my face and laying about.

I love myself and I love my body. But I DO NOT love all that excess fat I had, and still have. It is disgusting and it needs to go. I wish I could make my fat feel ashamed of itself so it would shrivel up and die all on its own, but alas, my fat is indifferent to my dismay and is fighting for it's existence LOL. So I have to kill it off little by little, because I am also fighting for my existence! I deserve a healthy, high-quality life! If that's fat-shaming then eff it! I should be ashamed for settling for less than I deserved before.

EngineerPrincess

To each their own. Nothing wrong with being curvy, nothing wrong with wanting to lose your curves, nothing wrong with anything as long as it isn't extreme (and by extreme I mean it doesn't come with direct serious health conditions). Anyone engaging in fat and/or skinny shaming (it happens, when you're naturally extremely thin you get horrible comments too) clearly has body image issues of their own.

DebbieLyn63

So how many more of these same threads are we going to see today? Have we not beat this horse to death enough times in one day? I know, I know, I don't have to read them. But come on, let's get back to talking about overeating at Christmas, or raspberry ketones, or starvation mode at 1200 cals, ANYTHING besides the never-ending argument of whose body looks better.

Men just want to get laid. They don't care if you are skinny or curvy, as long as you put out.

spongekitty

That said, everyone has their own goals in mind. There are big-boned people out there who are going to be curvy no matter how much they try, their bodies can become healthy but not model-thin. There are a lot of people who don't even believe model-thin is the way to be, and a full-bodied (though not obese) shape is the way to go.

Differences in human anatomy and metabolism makes weight gain and loss significantly easier or more difficult on an individual basis. But saying big boned was faster.

I don't think I get it. Am I supposed to think that the models in the Dove ad are fat? Because I sure don't think that.
Personally, I think they look perfectly healthy to me. The Victoria's Secret models look a little anorexic. You can see the bones in the one models thigh.
BTW, the Dove models look happier, at least they are smiling.

This is part of the issue, actually. The image was made so that you would think the VS girls are "unhealthy skinny" rather than the dove girls "unhealthy fat"

The whole image is a commentary on one thing being good and one being bad. That's the root of the problem here: why do we look at this and say one thing has to be good, and one has to be bad? Because the people aren't just looking at it saying "I prefer the VS girls" or "I prefer the Dove girls", the image is very clearly meant to be condescending (I believe the intent was towards the VS girls) and people chime in saying that the dove body image is real, healthy, right, and by praising it, they condescend towards the skinny image.

Then on the flip side, the facebook commenter said she viewed it the other way, which was jarring to me, is all. She turned it from skinny-shame to fat-shame and as people have pointed out, we should avoid both.

EngineerPrincess

I wonder, what's so wrong with 'fat-shaming'? I became obese due to shameful behaviors such as gluttony and sloth. I don't know how other people got fat, but that is how I got fat. Stuffing my face and laying about.

I love myself and I love my body. But I DO NOT love all that excess fat I had, and still have. It is disgusting and it needs to go. I wish I could make my fat feel ashamed of itself so it would shrivel up and die all on its own, but alas, my fat is indifferent to my dismay and is fighting for it's existence LOL. So I have to kill it off little by little, because I am also fighting for my existence! I deserve a healthy, high-quality life! If that's fat-shaming then eff it! I should be ashamed for settling for less than I deserved before.

Good point as well, too many people decide to idolize obesity or emaciation for reasons like gluttony or mental illnesses, but that isn't healthy either way, it's kind of sick congratulating people for being physically ill, we shouldn't shame people who are ill but there's nothing to celebrate there either, that won't encourage them to seek help.

pinkraynedropjacki

That said, everyone has their own goals in mind. There are big-boned people out there who are going to be curvy no matter how much they try, their bodies can become healthy but not model-thin. There are a lot of people who don't even believe model-thin is the way to be, and a full-bodied (though not obese) shape is the way to go.

Sorry but NOBODY is big boned at all. Bones are not why people are fat or bigger at all. I kinda wish people would stop using that as an excuse.

redladywitch

*We* need to stop perpetuating the negative stereotypes, making fun of others because they are different, fat shaming, or whatever you want to call it. Yet, in the same breath....*we* need to stop allowing people to hurt us....stop giving them permission, stop acting like the victim here....

Just be a decent human being, own your own sh$t, be accountable and carry on.

BinaryPulsar

I think this has turned out to be an interesting conversation with lots of good things said on either sides of people's thoughts about these issues.

I guess for myself I figure it doesn't really matter what people say. I wonder why some people feel the need to take things into the direction that they do. And sometimes I do find it irritating.

The only thing that truly bothers me is when people spread misinformation such as saying that a certain weight is not healthy or is anorexic or something along those lines just because it's wrong and just simply not true (that's just an example, but there are many ways people do this).

growingsmaller3

How about we stop attempting to correlate health with any weight at all? Somebody's weight is a poor estimation of their health, while their daily habits are a fantastic estimation of such. Fat, skinny, curvy or stick thin, it doesn't matter, because health is what matters. I just don't understand why we need to body shame, to promote these narrow minded and dangerous standards of beauty. I believe that people should be healthy, and I believe that health comes in all shapes/sizes. ( I do wish that the fashion industry would become more reflective of the average woman though).

It really irks me, that merely for a profit, companies are placing such an emphasis on weight.....so much so, that many doctors are now fooled into believing that weight really is a key point of health. People seem to forget that your weight is 1) A representation of your body's health (for most, but not all), and 2) That your weight often settles within a certain set point. For some people, that set point is perceived to be fat, and for some that set point is perceived to be 'too skinny'.

Regardless of your body size, if somebody feels the need to body shame, they're going to. Our society (primarily our industries such as diet and cosmetics) literally profit off of people's insecurities. So, if somebody felt happy, healthy, and confident about their size, why would they purchase a new diet pill, or a slimming set of clothing? The diet industry is one of the most (if not the most) successful industries right now, which goes to show that the industry's attempts to rob individuals of their security concerning their body size is working.

The worst part is that we are now attempting to bring others among us down as well, doctors included.
Long story short, stop body shaming, and be accepting of all body types. You don't have to find them sexually or aesthetically attractive, but you should accept them for what they are, and respect them. The end.

growingsmaller3

I wonder, what's so wrong with 'fat-shaming'? I became obese due to shameful behaviors such as gluttony and sloth. I don't know how other people got fat, but that is how I got fat. Stuffing my face and laying about.

I love myself and I love my body. But I DO NOT love all that excess fat I had, and still have. It is disgusting and it needs to go. I wish I could make my fat feel ashamed of itself so it would shrivel up and die all on its own, but alas, my fat is indifferent to my dismay and is fighting for it's existence LOL. So I have to kill it off little by little, because I am also fighting for my existence! I deserve a healthy, high-quality life! If that's fat-shaming then eff it! I should be ashamed for settling for less than I deserved before.

Good point as well, too many people decide to idolize obesity or emaciation for reasons like gluttony or mental illnesses, but that isn't healthy either way, it's kind of sick congratulating people for being physically ill, we shouldn't shame people who are ill but there's nothing to celebrate there either, that won't encourage them to seek help.

Body acceptance and physical health go hand in hand, since body acceptance, love and respect are all parts of mental health. Those key aspects of mental health (while separate from physical health) are often fuel for an individual attempting to become more healthy, with their lifestyle. Body acceptance is a movement, that merely believes we should respect and love all body types. It doesn't at all mention anybody's health habits, because body acceptance recognizes the fact that weight is not at all indicative of health. Body acceptance also recognizes the fact that confidence/respect in/for one's body is an internal experience, and is not dependent upon external appearances.

So, why should we not encourage individuals who binge eat, or eat unhealthily to love and accept their bodies? I mean, if individuals are over weight, do you really think that putting them down is going to encourage them to love and respect their body......or will it encourage them to wage a war on their bodies? I just don't see the need to put somebody down (leaving them with a negative emotional/mental health), when attempting to encourage them to be more proactive with their physical health. Mental and physical health go hand in hand, when it comes to individuals attempting to make positive changes in their life; essentially good mental health fuels good physical health. In order to make positive and healthy changes in one's life, surely one must first view their body as worthy of such things!

You also need to remember that while some people may of become over weight due to binge eating, not everybody has and you need to realize that. Some people are naturally overweight, even when their health is in it's prime. Hell, when I was in track for three years, vegetarian and eating clean (before I developed an eating disorder), i was technically overweight. However, i was consistently on top with my track team races, I was a rather good dancer, I slept well, when I got my bloodwork scans at the doctors they were literally shocked by how perfect my blood was, I very rarely got ill.....surely, if being overweight was such as 'bad thing', the tests of my strength and health would of not come out so pristine.

Do you understand what I'm getting at? Weight is a poor indicator of health, so there is just no reason to body shame. There is of course a reason to encourage an individual to change their exercise and dietary habits in ways that work best for them (since those things are a much more accurate indicator of health). Encouraging somebody to hate their bodies, due to society's illogical assumption (which is not true, due to the fact that correlation does not mean causation) that weight is indicative of health is essentially counter productive. We only have one body, so why not love and respect it, since it is all ours to cherish?!

There really is just no logical need for fat-shaming/body-shaming of any kind.....unless you consider putting others down to raise your self up to be logical that is. :x

Topher1978

I think not being a whiner about someone saying something that is at least halfway true is a good place to begin. You want to throw something in their face? Get a smokin' hot fit body, and be happy about it! You win, end of story!

upgetupgetup

Shame is an individual response, but it happens in response to cultural stuff. Takes a lot to withstand pressure, and for those who are fit, happy, overweight, and can take it, kudos. And making people feel bad about themselves is worse than useless. It masks the real conversation that needs to happen around health.

I don't think there's any doubt (among epidemiologists, anyway) that overweight/obesity just is, objectively, linked with all kinds of adverse health conditions, however people feel about it. And it's epidemic. Probably there are a few people at the top end of the bmi chart who are in great shape, not at risk for diabetes and other metabolic conditions, cardiovascular problems, arthritis, etc, but how many, realistically?

The problem is media images are SO out of whack with reality. It'd be a lot easier on everyone's mind and body if cities were planned better (transit, pedestrian paths, bike lanes, vs car-focus), food manufacturing/promotion/merchandising were more consistently regulated, kids were taught about nutrition in schools, etc, etc. All this energy blaming/shaming individuals would be more usefully placed in a conversation around structuring more equal opportunities for health, for all.

loosesealbluth

Honestly, any shaming is bad. Fat/skinny/whatever – it's bullying, and it's not helping anything.

I don't know who in their right mind would try to justify fat shaming. Being fat is unhealthy! It's bad for you! In reality, a lot of things are bad for you, but we rarely go shaming habits such as smoking – how often are people chided for being smokers? "God, I bet her lungs are pitch black...what a disgusting, selfish person..." It doesn't happen. Fat shaming helps nobody. (Okay, maybe it helps the shamer's self-esteem or something? I've spent a long time trying to figure out why people I hardly know would pick on me for my weight.) My weight has been criticized by friends and family and classmates and strangers alike and not once did I have some epiphany that "Wow, you're right! I am a lazy slob. Starting tomorrow I'm going to become a new, skinny, beautiful person. Sorry for being such an eyesore/disappointment/etc.!"

You hear something different from everybody. The media taught me to be a stick. My parents taught me to love myself for who I am. Peers taught me to trust nobody; that I was a bad person for being fat. The fact that society has constructed such a negative correlation between a person's weight and their personality/who they are as a person/etc. doesn't motivate people to lose weight. (Not me, at least. But it did make me pretty depressed through high school!)

I've struggled with my self-esteem for years, and when I committed to losing weight, it was not to have a sexy body or whatever, because I have no idea what my body's going to look like 100 pounds from now. I learned to accept my body and make the best of my personality. By the last two years of high school, I was so confident! I didn't give a s*** about what others thought. Honestly, having lost 50 pounds already, possibly thanks to posts on communities like these and "fitspo" and all the works, I feel more self-conscious than I have in a long time. Even when I reach my goal weight, I'll still probably be shamed for being the wrong kind of healthy (not skinny enough, too skinny, no muscle, whatever).

I get why we shame (thanks, media!), but holy crap, I wish we didn't.

tl;dr: What does it matter if someone else is fat? Their health is theirs – not yours – and your comments, even if you think they're innocuous, can really hurt.

MoreBean13

@looses- you've obviously never been a smoker. Smoking shaming happens constantly. People will come up to you unprompted, in designated smoking areas, and tell you they hope you dont have kids and you should be ashamed of yourself. They will lecture you as if you might have never heard smoking can be bad for you. I've even seen whole threads dedicated to how stupid people must be to smoke in their cars when they leave the gym, and how they shouldn't be allowed to smoke outside a gym because healthy people have to smell it as they walk by, and those 2 seconds might give that person cancer. To be clear, I am in no way arguing smoking is a good thing, but to say those people dont get shamed is absurd.

Sarahsue94

threads like these make me want to bash my head into a wall