Israel Bans Models under BMI 18.5
Replies
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That's not fair to the models that are naturally skinny but, i understand the whole trying to relay healthy body image to people.. But they need to realize that women come in all shapes and sizes.what is healthy for my body might not be healthy for yours.I do think that there should be something on magazines stating that ,"this image has been Photoshoped" So many girls and women may think twice about trying to harm their self to try and get "the perfect" body.
Edit: I also agree with morebean is sayin..0 -
I'm not saying that they should not have a cut off point. But, just cutting it right off at 18.5 seems drastic when there are so many healthy people with a BMI of 18 to 18.5 walking around, living their life. That is not the point at which people experience health problems.
People have gotten heavier and so people think that someone with a BMI of 18.5 is too slim. And that is not the case.0 -
Its Israel. Probably needs them to be beefed up s othey can be of some use in the military. Or at the very least, so the models don't inspire other girls/guys to become anorexic which in turn hurts their military0
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Sir Bradley Wiggins at his lightest would not be allowed to model in Israel.0
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I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.0
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I think a minimum BMI makes a lot of sense, but perhaps 18.5 is the wrong number. The WHO's starvation BMI is 16, but to me, when your periods have stopped would be a good indicator that your body isn't in full working order. For some people this happens at a BMI of around 20, but I wouldn't suggest that should be the minimum BMI. Hmmmm... The logic normally given for why models are so thin is that the sample clothes sizes are all the same, small size, so perhaps a set dress size would make more sense than a BMI...
As for naturally skinny girls, I see two angles on that. Firstly, in the past, there would be the occasional very skinny model, such as Twiggy or Kate Moss, who initially stood out for their skinniness and then created a certain trend for that level of skinniness. Recently, however, there are whole photo shoots of models who, to me, look unhealthily skinny. I do not believe this means that there has been a sudden influx of 'naturally' skinny humans on the world. It is a recent fashion, nothing more or less. Secondly, if, at present, there are industry maximum BMIs (informally) and heights (more formally), why not have a minimum BMI? If normal is considered too fat, why not have something considered too thin?
As for the media and anorexia, the prevalence of 'thinspo' suggests that images of others do have a part to play. Personally, I think two issues have become illogically interwoven: anorexia and the dangers of being underweight. Often, from what I have seen on mfp, for the mental illness of anorexia, proper help is not provided until the physical symptoms include being underweight. Equally, you can be underweight (or under fat) without having an ED, but this doesn't mean you aren't exposing yourself to risks associated with being underweight. Therefore, a teenage girl who is trying to lose weight to be as skinny as a catwalk model does not need to have an ED for this to be an unhealthy goal.
Lots of thinking aloud here, but I hope some of the thoughts add up! I don't know if what Israel is doing will 'work' and decrease the number of deaths from anorexia, but it will be interesting to see what results it does have.0 -
I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too0 -
I really don't know why we even bother photoshopping. Obviously that eye-shadow will make you look like your waist is 17" and your legs are twice as long as your torso. Total waste of time.I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too0 -
I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too
There's a pretty big difference between makeup and photoshopping bodies to impossible proportions, and that's the expectations of reality and ability to replicate it. Every woman recognizes that a model does not actually have a green outline to her eyes and is wearing foundation to give the image of perfect skin- that's understood, and we can get makeup at home and recreate those looks whenever we want. Often, magazines distort pictures to give models impossible body proportions- and I don't mean unlikely, I mean not humanly possible- shaving off hips, cutting in thigh gaps, elongating legs, nipping in waists. These things are not replicable at home, and I don't think it is universally recognized as false the way makeup is.0 -
I think a minimum BMI makes a lot of sense, but perhaps 18.5 is the wrong number. The WHO's starvation BMI is 16, but to me, when your periods have stopped would be a good indicator that your body isn't in full working order. For some people this happens at a BMI of around 20, but I wouldn't suggest that should be the minimum BMI. Hmmmm... The logic normally given for why models are so thin is that the sample clothes sizes are all the same, small size, so perhaps a set dress size would make more sense than a BMI...
As for naturally skinny girls, I see two angles on that. Firstly, in the past, there would be the occasional very skinny model, such as Twiggy or Kate Moss, who initially stood out for their skinniness and then created a certain trend for that level of skinniness. Recently, however, there are whole photo shoots of models who, to me, look unhealthily skinny. I do not believe this means that there has been a sudden influx of 'naturally' skinny humans on the world. It is a recent fashion, nothing more or less. Secondly, if, at present, there are industry maximum BMIs (informally) and heights (more formally), why not have a minimum BMI? If normal is considered too fat, why not have something considered too thin?
As for the media and anorexia, the prevalence of 'thinspo' suggests that images of others do have a part to play. Personally, I think two issues have become illogically interwoven: anorexia and the dangers of being underweight. Often, from what I have seen on mfp, for the mental illness of anorexia, proper help is not provided until the physical symptoms include being underweight. Equally, you can be underweight (or under fat) without having an ED, but this doesn't mean you aren't exposing yourself to risks associated with being underweight. Therefore, a teenage girl who is trying to lose weight to be as skinny as a catwalk model does not need to have an ED for this to be an unhealthy goal.
Lots of thinking aloud here, but I hope some of the thoughts add up! I don't know if what Israel is doing will 'work' and decrease the number of deaths from anorexia, but it will be interesting to see what results it does have.
Just a couple of thoughts. Dress size is not a good indicator either because that has even more variability to it, and also with vanity sizing making it even more complicated. There have already been bans in certain fashions shows based on dress size. Oddly enough because of that healthy women in small sizes were not allowed to work and unhealthy women that were too thin, but fit into one size larger were allowed to work.
The point is that there is not a magic cut off point at which a person is healthy and then .1 later they are not. The BMI is set at 18.5 with a built in margin of error already because they would not risk setting it too low. It used to be set at 18.
Deciding if the model is too thin would be based on her BMI, combined with a thorough physical by a doctor with blood work, hormonal testing, all kinds of stuff, and whether or not she gets her period.
Whether or not a women is healthy is between her and her doctor and is not up to a group of people on the internet to decide. Otherwise it's kind of nuts.
How far does this extend to? First models get fired, then other types of performers, then athletes that get to 18.4 from their sport get fired.
And one other point is just that I suppose there is enough variability in weight for maybe it not to be an issue. Sometimes when I weigh myself in the morning my BMI is 18.3, but most of the time it is 18.5 and above.0 -
I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too
There's a pretty big difference between makeup and photoshopping bodies to impossible proportions, and that's the expectations of reality and ability to replicate it. Every woman recognizes that a model does not actually have a green outline to her eyes and is wearing foundation to give the image of perfect skin- that's understood, and we can get makeup at home and recreate those looks whenever we want. Often, magazines distort pictures to give models impossible body proportions- and I don't mean unlikely, I mean not humanly possible- shaving off hips, cutting in thigh gaps, elongating legs, nipping in waists. These things are not replicable at home, and I don't think it is universally recognized as false the way makeup is.
Awesome, typed up a nice thread and the computer decided to crash so I will just try and type up something and hope it makes sense.
As somebody who works with photoshop, possibly I have a different view but the way I look at it, both makeup and photoshopping are alteration. Both can be tasteful and both can be taken to an extreme.
What do I mean when I bring makeup to the equation? I live in Asia and as trend here in the "brown people" area is to get a more fair (AKA, whiter) skin. You often see many girls walk around with enough makeup to make em look like ghost (or Michael Jackson). Even in US, you often see makeup done enough that if you see a girl without makeup, you might not even recognize her. This, ofcourse is extreme and there are more tasteful occurences of makeup vs. these said extremes.
Same with photoshopping. If done properly and tastefully, it basically shows a women on her best form on a perfect day. On a good hair day, on a day her skin is glowing, she doesn't have any pimples etc. Photoshopping brings out all of this together. In my opinion, this isn't any different then makeup. I am sure you have seen many before and after makeup pics of celebraties and models floating around. Try and recall them (or google them) if you can to realize that makeup itself is a fairly strong medium
Some examples of photoshopping done in a flattering manner:
Then comes the big one. The body alteration from photoshopping. Of course there are extremes in this too. Women are shown with unattainable bodies and even if the waist size shown is attainable, they don't show the bones sticking out in an unflattery fashion like they would in real life. These are extremes. However, if every woman is smart enough to recognize that model does not actually have a green outline to her eyes and is wearing foundation to give the image of perfect skin, then I'd like to think they're smart enough to realize that those bodies are photoshopped.
An example of photoshopping with body altering. I'd let you gals decide if this is taking the shopping to an extreme
ETA: Forgot to add for the body alteration. The body alteration "makeup" have been used forever via accessories. Like those things in the victorian era with threads in the back that makes a womens boobs pop out and makes her waist seem smaller (don't know the name but I am sure you know what I'm talking about). Or even today, a pushup bra (or is it wonder bra?)
I guess the tl;dr is, photoshop is here to stay whether you like it or not. It is actually not all that is evil.0 -
I really don't know why we even bother photoshopping. Obviously that eye-shadow will make you look like your waist is 17" and your legs are twice as long as your torso. Total waste of time.I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too
you want your waist to seem smaller? corset does it. No need for photoshop
You want your legs to seem twice as long? high heels. Other option is the angle from which the picture is taken.
There are many wonders you can do for body manipulations WITHOUT photoshop also. Photoshop simply makes it easier and less costly. Sometimes it gets abused too (just like any other thing)0 -
I wish people really did know when they're being fooled, know a fake image from an authentic one and never fall for such tricks, but unfortunately that's not always the case, especially with young women and teenagers, as evidenced by the constant thigh gap threads here, for example. Fashion sets unattainable standards for beauty which can affect even mature and intelligence individuals. And I believe it's time we stopped idolizing sickness. Looking around here on this website you'll see many young women eating 700 cals a day or obsessing with this or other body part to the point of self loathing. And this, the way I see it, also stems from being bombarded with those "perfect" images. So I get that they want to make that model's cellulite and stretch marks (and curves?) go away, but I do find it proper for that fact to be stated next to it.
I really don't know why we even bother photoshopping. Obviously that eye-shadow will make you look like your waist is 17" and your legs are twice as long as your torso. Total waste of time.I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too
you want your waist to seem smaller? corset does it. No need for photoshop
You want your legs to seem twice as long? high heels. Other option is the angle from which the picture is taken.
There are many wonders you can do for body manipulations WITHOUT photoshop also. Photoshop simply makes it easier and less costly. Sometimes it gets abused too (just like any other thing)0 -
I wish people really did know when they're being fooled, know a fake image from an authentic one and never fall for such tricks, but unfortunately that's not always the case, especially with young women and teenagers, as evidenced by the constant thigh gap threads here, for example. Fashion sets unattainable standards for beauty which can affect even mature and intelligence individuals. And I believe it's time we stopped idolizing sickness. Looking around here on this website you'll see many young women eating 700 cals a day or obsessing with this or other body part to the point of self loathing. And this, the way I see it, also stems from being bombarded with those "perfect" images. So I get that they want to make that model's cellulite and stretch marks (and curves?) go away, but I do find it proper for that fact to be stated next to it.
I really don't know why we even bother photoshopping. Obviously that eye-shadow will make you look like your waist is 17" and your legs are twice as long as your torso. Total waste of time.I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too
you want your waist to seem smaller? corset does it. No need for photoshop
You want your legs to seem twice as long? high heels. Other option is the angle from which the picture is taken.
There are many wonders you can do for body manipulations WITHOUT photoshop also. Photoshop simply makes it easier and less costly. Sometimes it gets abused too (just like any other thing)
I get what you're trying to say. I really do. But photoshop (or even makeup) isn't to blame. There is a reason that bullemia was invented in Ancient Rome.
I also don't think that anyone is falling for tricks. "We are our own worst enemy". A popular saying is very true. You really think these teenagers or young women don't know the harm of ED? Of course they do... they, today, know about it more than they ever have in the past. Think of cutting yourself practices that are done in teenagers. They know its harmful, they still do it.
The "perfect images" have been around forever in one way or another. Think Marilyn Monroe as a more recent "perfect image" example. The fashion etc isn't to be blamed. If you want to blame somebody, blame the parents for not giving their kids self-respect and self-confidence that they have to confide in such acts.0 -
I've never stated photoshop needs to be banned, neither does this law we're discussing. Society will always have standards as to what people should look like, and even more so when it comes to women. But these days it's easier for us to make them unattainable and much more evident. Of course, many women won't fall for that, have enough self-confidence and not give a damn what other people think about them, but that's not always the case, and sadly, I think it's mostly NOT the case. I'm not suggesting photoshop should be banned, not at all: I do believe, however, that it's a good idea to make people more aware of it. It's quite similar to the "smoking kills" captions on cigarette packets. You can use it however you like, but you should be aware of the consequences..
I wish people really did know when they're being fooled, know a fake image from an authentic one and never fall for such tricks, but unfortunately that's not always the case, especially with young women and teenagers, as evidenced by the constant thigh gap threads here, for example. Fashion sets unattainable standards for beauty which can affect even mature and intelligence individuals. And I believe it's time we stopped idolizing sickness. Looking around here on this website you'll see many young women eating 700 cals a day or obsessing with this or other body part to the point of self loathing. And this, the way I see it, also stems from being bombarded with those "perfect" images. So I get that they want to make that model's cellulite and stretch marks (and curves?) go away, but I do find it proper for that fact to be stated next to it.
I really don't know why we even bother photoshopping. Obviously that eye-shadow will make you look like your waist is 17" and your legs are twice as long as your torso. Total waste of time.I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too
you want your waist to seem smaller? corset does it. No need for photoshop
You want your legs to seem twice as long? high heels. Other option is the angle from which the picture is taken.
There are many wonders you can do for body manipulations WITHOUT photoshop also. Photoshop simply makes it easier and less costly. Sometimes it gets abused too (just like any other thing)
I get what you're trying to say. I really do. But photoshop (or even makeup) isn't to blame. There is a reason that bullemia was invented in Ancient Rome.
I also don't think that anyone is falling for tricks. "We are our own worst enemy". A popular saying is very true. You really think these teenagers or young women don't know the harm of ED? Of course they do... they, today, know about it more than they ever have in the past. Think of cutting yourself practices that are done in teenagers. They know its harmful, they still do it.
The "perfect images" have been around forever in one way or another. Think Marilyn Monroe as a more recent "perfect image" example. The fashion etc isn't to be blamed. If you want to blame somebody, blame the parents for not giving their kids self-respect and self-confidence that they have to confide in such acts.0 -
SMOKING KILLS0
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SMOKING KILLS
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There is a reason that bullemia was invented in Ancient Rome.
Actually that is a myth. The "vomitorium" was actually a passageway for the egress of people from one room to another -nothing to do with bodily fluids. The romans did not make themselves sick between meals / during meals at all. Though several texts do refer to drinking wine to the point of sickness.0 -
Taunto, I love you man, but I feel like you're just arguing to argue here. Of course kids are falling for it, as an adult woman who knows every image I see is altered, I still can't pick out most bodies that have been stretched and nipped beyond human capacity. We see them so often, they don't even look that strange to the naked eye. I suspect adjustment, but require calculations to prove it- there's actually methods of calculating when ratios of hips to waist and leg lengths etc have become surreal.
I wish people really did know when they're being fooled, know a fake image from an authentic one and never fall for such tricks, but unfortunately that's not always the case, especially with young women and teenagers, as evidenced by the constant thigh gap threads here, for example. Fashion sets unattainable standards for beauty which can affect even mature and intelligence individuals. And I believe it's time we stopped idolizing sickness. Looking around here on this website you'll see many young women eating 700 cals a day or obsessing with this or other body part to the point of self loathing. And this, the way I see it, also stems from being bombarded with those "perfect" images. So I get that they want to make that model's cellulite and stretch marks (and curves?) go away, but I do find it proper for that fact to be stated next to it.
I really don't know why we even bother photoshopping. Obviously that eye-shadow will make you look like your waist is 17" and your legs are twice as long as your torso. Total waste of time.I'm very happy with it. And especially with the photoshop thing. The image people get from the media is way too distorted.
If you hate photoshop, then I really hope you hate makeup too
you want your waist to seem smaller? corset does it. No need for photoshop
You want your legs to seem twice as long? high heels. Other option is the angle from which the picture is taken.
There are many wonders you can do for body manipulations WITHOUT photoshop also. Photoshop simply makes it easier and less costly. Sometimes it gets abused too (just like any other thing)
I get what you're trying to say. I really do. But photoshop (or even makeup) isn't to blame. There is a reason that bullemia was invented in Ancient Rome.
I also don't think that anyone is falling for tricks. "We are our own worst enemy". A popular saying is very true. You really think these teenagers or young women don't know the harm of ED? Of course they do... they, today, know about it more than they ever have in the past. Think of cutting yourself practices that are done in teenagers. They know its harmful, they still do it.
The "perfect images" have been around forever in one way or another. Think Marilyn Monroe as a more recent "perfect image" example. The fashion etc isn't to be blamed. If you want to blame somebody, blame the parents for not giving their kids self-respect and self-confidence that they have to confide in such acts.
Of course kids know that eating disorders are dangerous, but part of the disease is that they don't care. Their judgment disordered. I have already provided links to research showing that there is a CAUSAL relationship between exposure to thinness-idealizing imagery and the development and maintenance of eating disorders. The kids most affected by the imagery are those who are already vulnerable and high risk, but does that mean that we, as a society, should forego trying to minimize the damage? I think the exact opposite, we are not talking about adults here, we are talking about kids, and to say that there's no blame on the industry or society because "perfect images" have always existed is irresponsible, imo. Again, there is a CAUSAL relationship there. I do agree that this disease prevention should be more grassroots, focused on self esteem development and education, but we don't need to feed the machine either.
ETA: For the record, I don't have a problem with photoshopping as a whole, I have a problem with using it to create unrealistic images that contribute to eating disorders. The ban that's being discussed specifically applies to images of women who are of healthy weight (as the underweight models shave already been removed from the equation) and digitally altering images to make them appear underweight. Like I said before, I have no idea how this could be practically enforced.0 -
Stupid law.
Will they ban models with a BMI over 25, also? Wouldn't want to promote "unhealthy" weights.0 -
Some women are naturally slim, even when lifting weights and well nourished.
I agree, but modeling is an industry that already discriminates much of the time based on appearance and weight. Women in the accepted range of healthy BMI's are generally too heavy for modeling. It's not fair for them either; there just isn't anything fair about the industry. Of course, there aren't laws in place governing this, but I think that's similar to any other industry. When the industry isn't protecting its employees, laws are put into place to do so. Of course young naturally slim teens want to feel normal too, but I don't think that's a valid argument when we talk modeling. So much of the demographics are not represented. This law is not to make everyone feel good, it's to stop promoting an unhealthy (for those not naturally small) "norm."
All that aside, I'm not sure what I think about legislating this. I do think there need to be regulations in place for the under 18 models, for sure, to protect them. Beyond the minors, I'm not sure. I think the videos that show what people really look like prior to photoshop and airbrushing and professional makeup and hair artists are really enlightening. I have no problem with requiring images to be identified as photoshopped. Not everyone, especially younger people, is aware of what can be done with photoshop.0 -
I would LOVE to have my un-natually small waist size back again. I'm 5'4". I used to weigh 110 and have a 36-20-36 figure. That was before children so I doubt I'm ever going to be THAT small in the waist again.
Oh well. You can't win them all. I sure didn't look like I weighed that. I was cuddly looking. 0 -
Stupid law.
Will they ban models with a BMI over 25, also? Wouldn't want to promote "unhealthy" weights.
Good idea0 -
I think that's wonderful. Especially the notice/warning that the image was altered. I think all beauty & fashion ads which have been photoshopped should state so.0
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Stupid law.
Will they ban models with a BMI over 25, also? Wouldn't want to promote "unhealthy" weights.
Good idea
my BMI is well over 30, am I going to drop dead soon?0 -
Stupid law.
Will they ban models with a BMI over 25, also? Wouldn't want to promote "unhealthy" weights.
Good idea
^interesting thought..
this law is a good idea in theory.. but I wonder if it will actually work.
I will say this - I watched Miss Universe and I immediately felt completely SHTTY about myself.0 -
This is just one of those stories that provokes cheers among the envious while the rest of us roll our eyes and try to keep a straight face.Stupid law.
Will they ban models with a BMI over 25, also? Wouldn't want to promote "unhealthy" weights.
Good idea0 -
So nobody has an issue that this is a law passed by the government? Wow, talk about overstepping some boundaries (in the US at least)....0
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So nobody has an issue that this is a law passed by the government? Wow, talk about overstepping some boundaries (in the US at least)....
Good thing the US government does not over step its bounds0 -
Stupid law.
Will they ban models with a BMI over 25, also? Wouldn't want to promote "unhealthy" weights.
Good idea
my BMI is well over 30, am I going to drop dead soon?
You'd make a ugly model0
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