Israel Bans Models under BMI 18.5

gingerveg

I don't think it's a good idea because numbers can be deceiving. I hate how people get so judgmental about numbers--it's about health and perception. Just because one person can't be under a certain weight and/or BF does not mean someone else (yes even someone of the same height or taller) can't be there and still be healthy.

I've got an idea. The product of modeling is visual. Generally these models are depicted in print and/or online/television advertisement. If someone looks bad/too thin for the agency how about they just don't get hired for that shoot. Seems easy enough.

LauraDotts

Why is a beautiful body photoshopped to look thinner? That is the problem with the fashion/model industry. A healthy, fully mature woman with a fantastic body isn't good enough? They have to make it look thinner. 30 year old women have to have the body of a 14 year old. Unless she's an athlete there is no reason for a healthy, grown woman (I'm not talking about teens) to have a BMI under 20%. 18.5% is very thin, especially on a woman who is 5'10".

Whether or not this law affects the rate of anorexia/bulimia in Israel remains to be seen. However, I think it is a good law for the protection of the health of models.

nguk123

What a horrible law. Mandating that any photo/video of such low BMI models be stamped as such, "this models BMI is abnormally low", would itself be bad... but surely better than directly outlawing such models from their occupations.

MoreBean13

I feel like a lot of people are getting hung up on discrimination towards the models themselves, like the idea hinges on the health of the models and of the models are healthy they should be allowed to be portrayed even if they don't meet the BMI standards- bit it's really not about the models. It really doesn't matter if an individual model is healthy or not, it is about limiting exposure to thinness idealizing images available to teenagers, and putting warnings when advertisements do depict such images. How the model got to be that weight, while interesting, is mostly irrelevant to the goal. The models themselves will figure something out- when one becomes a model they sign up for an industry that tells them how to look; it's perfectly commonplace (though in my opinion wrong, but whatever) for agencies to tell healthy weight women that they need to lose weight to go on a casting call. The agency does not look at a doctor's certificate of health to dictate the appropriate weight of the model, they know that they need to lose 5 or 10 lbs to be cast, and the model complies if they want to work, even if it makes them less healthy. I don't see any difference, now that I have thought about it, to require them to get up to a certain weight to work, naturally slim or otherwise.

I still agree that BMI is a very flawed system, but it's also the system governments use to look at the weight of populations. The more I think about it, its probably the only choice available on which to make any such regulation. For them to use bodyfat or some other health criteria, probably the whole system would have to be overhauled, first, since all the current statistics and population data are based on BMI. (and that couldn't happen soon enough to satisfy me!)

Dub_D

There was this same post yesterday and my answer was that I think this is both good and bad. And I will not elaborate because I'm lazy. Good day.

BinaryPulsar

Some women are naturally slim, even when lifting weights and well nourished.

I agree, but modeling is an industry that already discriminates much of the time based on appearance and weight. Women in the accepted range of healthy BMI's are generally too heavy for modeling. It's not fair for them either; there just isn't anything fair about the industry. Of course, there aren't laws in place governing this, but I think that's similar to any other industry. When the industry isn't protecting its employees, laws are put into place to do so. Of course young naturally slim teens want to feel normal too, but I don't think that's a valid argument when we talk modeling. So much of the demographics are not represented. This law is not to make everyone feel good, it's to stop promoting an unhealthy (for those not naturally small) "norm."

All that aside, I'm not sure what I think about legislating this. I do think there need to be regulations in place for the under 18 models, for sure, to protect them. Beyond the minors, I'm not sure. I think the videos that show what people really look like prior to photoshop and airbrushing and professional makeup and hair artists are really enlightening. I have no problem with requiring images to be identified as photoshopped. Not everyone, especially younger people, is aware of what can be done with photoshop.

18.5 BMI is not for teens, it's for adults. Because that is the adult BMI system and is not the same for children. There is a separate BMI measurement for children and teens and it goes much lower because they are not yet done growing.

And it does bother me when people make a big public uproar banning small people claiming that simply being a small person is somehow harmful to young girls and society. Because it's BS. I've been through a lot of crap and trauma in my life and there is no Fing way that my simple existence as a small person that eats over 2000 calories a day and is extremely healthy is harming children just because I exist and they need to look at me. I am however a real person. I am not photo shopped. And most people would not know my weight or BMI because I look muscular, healthy, fit, curvy. I am 5'2", though, so maybe it is more normal for shorter people to be healthy at a low BMI (I don't know, I've never been tall). I am also a mother and I dance with children.

Having a healthy environment for children is of the most extreme importance to me. But, this is not the answer. A cut off is fine. Maybe even if the cut off is 18. But, 18.5, that's absurd.

And I don't understand why people are against making sure the models are healthy, so that they are displaying a healthy thin image and not an unhealthy one. It's about health. Not about outlawing thin people to make everyone feel better about themselves.

And when it comes to the lingerie models I actually think that prevents anorexia because those are healthy, slim women showing that a women can be sexy, slim, healthy and could never achieve that by becoming undernourished, under-muscled, and emaciated.

BinaryPulsar

If you all really care so much about preventing eating disorders then an even better way to go about it would be to work towards helping to prevent child abuse.

trojanbb

Totalitarian government is totalitarian.

Big surprise there. Welcome to the new world order.

BinaryPulsar

This law is misleading because it is making the correlation that someone with a BMI under 18.5 is dying of anorexia. But, those are the women at 16 BMI or less. I can see setting a limit at 18 or so, but 18.5 is ridiculous in my opinion. My BMI fluctuates and is sometimes 18.3, sometimes 18.6. Look at my photo of me in my blue bikini. I do not look too thin.

rml_16

So nobody has an issue that this is a law passed by the government? Wow, talk about overstepping some boundaries (in the US at least)....

Governments regulate businesses, even in the US.

I think the issue becomes more the reasoning behind the law than the law itself, though that is still kind of difficult to really enforce.

The modeling/fashion industry demands thinner and thinner models and in order to work, young women do starve themselves to the point of death sometimes. So in a way, it's like regulating safety in factories or construction sites.

I think, though, that when it comes to models causing the general public to develop EDs, I just don't know. I think there is a lot more to that than skinny models and this won't change anything.

And, yes, there are people who are just skinny. My BF's daughter is 13, 5'6" and 97 pounds and she eats A LOT. She just comes from a very skinny gene pool. I was folding her skinny jeans the other day and they were inside out. I put my arm inside to pull the legs the right way and they were too tiny for even my forearm to fit all the way through and I have small forearms!

vim_n_vigor

This law is misleading because it is making the correlation that someone with a BMI under 18.5 is dying of anorexia. But, those are the women at 16 BMI or less. I can see setting a limit at 18 or so, but 18.5 is ridiculous in my opinion. My BMI fluctuates and is sometimes 18.3, sometimes 18.6. Look at my photo of me in my blue bikini. I do not look too thin.

You seem to be taking this very personally. The government of Israel decided this was the cut off for their models. You could be one too if you made sure you ate some very dense food right before going into the doctor to get weighed. If you were 17.9 and the cut off were 18 would you be just as upset then?

BinaryPulsar

This law is misleading because it is making the correlation that someone with a BMI under 18.5 is dying of anorexia. But, those are the women at 16 BMI or less. I can see setting a limit at 18 or so, but 18.5 is ridiculous in my opinion. My BMI fluctuates and is sometimes 18.3, sometimes 18.6. Look at my photo of me in my blue bikini. I do not look too thin.

You seem to be taking this very personally. The government of Israel decided this was the cut off for their models. You could be one too if you made sure you ate some very dense food right before going into the doctor to get weighed. If you were 17.9 and the cut off were 18 would you be just as upset then?

If I was healthy, probably, but only if I was healthy.

And yes, I said that before that I would pass for the weigh in if it is set at 18.5.

I just have an opinion on it, that's all.

vim_n_vigor

This law is misleading because it is making the correlation that someone with a BMI under 18.5 is dying of anorexia. But, those are the women at 16 BMI or less. I can see setting a limit at 18 or so, but 18.5 is ridiculous in my opinion. My BMI fluctuates and is sometimes 18.3, sometimes 18.6. Look at my photo of me in my blue bikini. I do not look too thin.

You seem to be taking this very personally. The government of Israel decided this was the cut off for their models. You could be one too if you made sure you ate some very dense food right before going into the doctor to get weighed. If you were 17.9 and the cut off were 18 would you be just as upset then?

If I was healthy, probably, but only if I was healthy.

And yes, I said that before that I would pass for the weigh in if it is set at 18.5.

I just have an opinion on it, that's all.

I don't think they set the cutoff based on the health of the models. If it was the health they were looking at, there would be more they would check than just bmi. There is never going to be one measure that tells if the models are healthy or not, there are multiple factors.

bathsheba_c

This law is misleading because it is making the correlation that someone with a BMI under 18.5 is dying of anorexia. But, those are the women at 16 BMI or less. I can see setting a limit at 18 or so, but 18.5 is ridiculous in my opinion. My BMI fluctuates and is sometimes 18.3, sometimes 18.6. Look at my photo of me in my blue bikini. I do not look too thin.

Yes, but are you Jewish? That's not a sarcastic question, and there's a reason why there are separate BMI scales for different races. With the exception of the Ethiopian Jews and, to a lesser extent, the Yemeni Jews, it is extremely unusual for Jewish women at a healthy weight to be at the lower end of the BMI scale. Just an example, my BMI is 23.0 and I couldn't lose more than another five pounds without looking scrawny.

MoreBean13

This law is misleading because it is making the correlation that someone with a BMI under 18.5 is dying of anorexia. But, those are the women at 16 BMI or less. I can see setting a limit at 18 or so, but 18.5 is ridiculous in my opinion. My BMI fluctuates and is sometimes 18.3, sometimes 18.6. Look at my photo of me in my blue bikini. I do not look too thin.

I don't think it is assuming people are anorexic at that BMI. I think it's just drawing a line at where body images of people with that BMI could contribute to the development of EDs when fed en masse to the public. I actually don't think it's making any judgements at all about the individuals with that BMI.

What if the law allowed a percentage of advertising equal to the percentage of the population that was naturally slim to be shown, per company? So if say, 10% of the population (made up #, I have no idea what the %age is) falls in the naturally slim and healthy population, then 10% of advertising images could show lower BMI models. Would that be acceptable?

BinaryPulsar

I agree with the recent people that posted. The health takes many factors into consideration.

I also did not know that being Jewish meant being at a somewhat medium to larger frame, so that is good info.

I also agree that the modeling industry is not good and do agree that change is needed.

Thanks for the conversation on it. I do appreciate a productive conversation.

I also think that is an interesting idea about percentages, MoreBean.

As long as it is still ok for people to be healthy slender, and people aren't going to accuse people of being unhealthy and no one is going to fire me from my dancing job. I'm fine.

libbymcbain

Could be useful in stopping some of the nonsense the fashion industry promulgates- specifically agencies telling girls who are young, often without family or friends in a strange country, who already slim that they need to lose more weight.

rml_16

This law is misleading because it is making the correlation that someone with a BMI under 18.5 is dying of anorexia. But, those are the women at 16 BMI or less. I can see setting a limit at 18 or so, but 18.5 is ridiculous in my opinion. My BMI fluctuates and is sometimes 18.3, sometimes 18.6. Look at my photo of me in my blue bikini. I do not look too thin.

Yes, but are you Jewish? That's not a sarcastic question, and there's a reason why there are separate BMI scales for different races. With the exception of the Ethiopian Jews and, to a lesser extent, the Yemeni Jews, it is extremely unusual for Jewish women at a healthy weight to be at the lower end of the BMI scale. Just an example, my BMI is 23.0 and I couldn't lose more than another five pounds without looking scrawny.

Are you freaking KIDDING ME?????

My Jewish grandmother and her Jewish sister and HER daughter are some of the smallest women I know. My grandmother, who was healthy, was 90 pounds while nine months pregnant.

I also did not know that being Jewish meant being at a somewhat medium to larger frame, so that is good info.

It isn't true.

bathsheba_c

But were they tiny all over, or tiny in terms of weight? For a woman who weights 90 pounds to have a BMI of 18.5, she'd only have to be between 4'10" and 4'11", which wasn't unusually short 2 generations ago. The actress, Molly Picon, was only 4'1", for example.

rml_16

But were they tiny all over, or tiny in terms of weight? For a woman who weights 90 pounds to have a BMI of 18.5, she'd only have to be between 4'10" and 4'11", which wasn't unusually short 2 generations ago. The actress, Molly Picon, was only 4'1", for example.

My mother's mother, who is Italian, was 5'6" and she's older than my father's mother by about 10-15 years. I'm 5'3".

My cousin is in her 40s and she's very tiny. The women in my family on the Jewish side have very small frames. And 90 pounds while nine months pregnant is not the same as 90 pounds when not pregnant. I take after that side of the family in frame size and before my metabolism slowed down, I was incredibly small. Granted, my BMI wasn't below 18.5, but I also have my mother's genes in there and she's a bit bigger.

The Jewish women I have known have not all been medium to large-framed. Their bodies have not been any different in general than the bodies of women I know who aren't Jewish. Super thin, normal sized and overweight and everything in between.

Models -- unless they are plus-sized -- tend to be thinner that the norm in their own cultures, so there is no reason that there can't be (especially young) teenage Jewish girls and young Jewish women who are below a BMI of 18.5 and healthy.

bathsheba_c

I'm not saying that there aren't any anywhere. I am saying that the bell curve is shifted to the right. Phrased differently, I see a higher percentage of slender women in the US than I do in Israel, so the percent of women with a BMI under 18.5 who are healthy would be lower in Israel than in the US.

FlaxMilk

If you all really care so much about preventing eating disorders then an even better way to go about it would be to work towards helping to prevent child abuse.

How do you know we don't?

Of course an eating disorder is a lot more complicated than a magazine model and many, many, many people with ED's have some trauma history. But this law isn't just to protect those with eating disorders. There are many little girls out there with bad body image. You say you don't want to be seen as unhealthy to body image just by existing. I'm guessing you aren't plastered nationwide on magazines among only models your size and smaller. Trust me, girls get ideas about their health and body image by NOT seeing their (healthy) weight represented too. There's just nothing fair about the modeling industry. I don't see very thin but healthy women not being able to model as any different than a woman with a 22 BMI not being able to model because she doesn't look right for the modeling industry. Not everyone gets to model. There are health risks associated with being a BMI of under 18.5 even if some individuals are actually healthy. (There are of course health risks associated with being overweight. But until that's seen as something desirable, and plus size models actually influence people to become plus size and not simply be there to represent a large portion of the population who wouldn't have the clothing fit similarly to the very thin women, it's not quite the same situation/argument.)

I'm not sure about legislating, still. But I'm not sure that change will come from the modeling industry any time soon. I'm leaning toward the idea of the schools teach more about photoshop and what's realistically healthy and what's not. (Of course it's the job of the parents. Not all parents can or will, particularly if they themselves don't have the knowledge because they didn't get it as kids.) If not the schools, grants to private non-profit groups that teach about this. Making healthy as public and normal as underweight. (The standard for anorexia is not 16, it's 85% of an expected weight which many place as 17.5)

BinaryPulsar

If you all really care so much about preventing eating disorders then an even better way to go about it would be to work towards helping to prevent child abuse.

How do you know we don't?

Of course an eating disorder is a lot more complicated than a magazine model and many, many, many people with ED's have some trauma history. But this law isn't just to protect those with eating disorders. There are many little girls out there with bad body image. You say you don't want to be seen as unhealthy to body image just by existing. I'm guessing you aren't plastered nationwide on magazines among only models your size and smaller. Trust me, girls get ideas about their health and body image by NOT seeing their (healthy) weight represented too. There's just nothing fair about the modeling industry. I don't see very thin but healthy women not being able to model as any different than a woman with a 22 BMI not being able to model because she doesn't look right for the modeling industry. Not everyone gets to model. There are health risks associated with being a BMI of under 18.5 even if some individuals are actually healthy. (There are of course health risks associated with being overweight. But until that's seen as something desirable, and plus size models actually influence people to become plus size and not simply be there to represent a large portion of the population who wouldn't have the clothing fit similarly to the very thin women, it's not quite the same situation/argument.)

I'm not sure about legislating, still. But I'm not sure that change will come from the modeling industry any time soon. I'm leaning toward the idea of the schools teach more about photoshop and what's realistically healthy and what's not. (Of course it's the job of the parents. Not all parents can or will, particularly if they themselves don't have the knowledge because they didn't get it as kids.) If not the schools, grants to private non-profit groups that teach about this. Making healthy as public and normal as underweight. (The standard for anorexia is not 16, it's 85% of an expected weight which many place as 17.5)

I'm sorry, that was just something I was saying was important. I did not think that any one person did not help prevent child abuse. And if you do, then that's wonderful. It was something I think is important in these issues. It was not an accusation.

I agree that body image is very important and I want to help with that also. I went through it very badly as a teen. For me it was not made worse by seeing models. It was made worse by the way people around me would insult the bodies of models.

I agree there are major problems with the modeling industry. And if it can be fixed it will take a lot of work, thinking together, and discussions. It's not an easy solution.

I understand that the guideline for anorexia is 17.5. What I meant was that permanent damage begins to occur at 16. Although it is important to remember that the guidelines are different for teenagers and children.

I'm not upset with anyone in this thread. It's an important discussion.

And, no I am not plastered on magazines (thankfully), but I do perform as a dancer and would not want to be not allowed to do my career that is very important to me just because I am naturally small framed.

It's not an easy solution, It is a complicated issue. A lot of the issues are important to me as well. But, it's not black and white. And there are many different sides to it. It's really more than I want to get into on here, right now. And I am open to hearing and listening to other perspectives, and also hopefully being listened to as well. That's all.

I'm really not always very good at attempting to communicate on the internet. It's exhausting for me. I do better in life with conversations.

And just for the record I do not qualify to be a model either because I am 5'2".

I do not have any kind of issue with you Flax Milk. I've seen you in the threads and often like things you have said. I also have no issue with you in this thread. Everything I have said was about the content of the Original Post, and not directed personally at the OP or anyone here. Just to be clear.

SoDamnHungry

Photoshop disclaimers: good. Ban based on BMI? That is a TERRIBLE way to battle eating disorders. MANY girls have a natural bmi of under 18.5 and eat like horses, I did until I was in my very late teens. What we need to teach girls is that their worth isn't based on their looks, not slightly regulate the weight of girls on the catwalk. High fashion is art and models are basically hangers for clothes-- and I haven't met many girls who actually watch high fashion shows and say "I want to look like that." I've heard that said about victorias secret models, but those girls are usually over 18.5 and over anyway. In my experience (and I've known a LOT of people with eating disorders), high fashion isn't the *cause* of eating disorders, it's always emotional and mental issues first that drive someone to an extreme and disordered behavior.

What needs to be done is spend the money educating the public on eating disorders themselves. For a lot of the girls suffering it's not even about being skinny. It's about the control, the mindset, the anxiety, so many other things. Regulations like this are a waste of time but worse, they purvey stereotypes about eating disorders that are highly incorrect.

I like you. You're smart.

FlaxMilk

I do not have any kind of issue with you Flax Milk. I've seen you in the threads and often like things you have said. I also have no issue with you in this thread. Everything I have said was about the content of the Original Post, and not directed personally at the OP or anyone here. Just to be clear.

I hope I didn't sound combative. (Thank you, I often like the things you say as well.) I'm not personally offended, and I don't think you said anything wrong. You didn't put anyone down or do anything other than voice your opinion and your reasons for it. Having strong feelings is not anything to apologize for, and you've conducted yourself just fine. (I hope I have too, if I came off sounding angry or anything, I'm not. I actually think I look my best at a lower BMI, so I'm definitely not critical of people who are naturally thinner or even just feel they look better smaller, though I hope they are happy and healthy and aren't harming themselves in any way to get the way they want to look. It's not worth it if you are suffering for it.) I don't think this is an easy issue at all either, and I'm not sure there is a solution out there that will work for everyone.

MoreBean13

I just want to say thank you to everyone who has been participating in this thread. It's a touchy subject, and one that could have gotten out-of-line easily, and the discussion has really stayed mature and respectful. You guys rock! :flowerforyou:

(knock on wood?)

Graelwyn75

When I was anorexic and striving for lower weights, the models in magazines were actually a major motivation for me, and I was heavily influenced by them. My ED was additionally fed by seeing all these super slender, perfect looking bodies, and that was when you still had the less emaciated models such as Cindy Crawford and Linda Evangelista.

I know that I, personally, lost my periods if my bmi is below 18, and I am 5'10.

I also would question why someone who had a BMI of around 18.5-19, decided they needed to lose 4 Ibs, that sounds somewhat disordered to me.

gingerveg

This law is misleading because it is making the correlation that someone with a BMI under 18.5 is dying of anorexia. But, those are the women at 16 BMI or less. I can see setting a limit at 18 or so, but 18.5 is ridiculous in my opinion. My BMI fluctuates and is sometimes 18.3, sometimes 18.6. Look at my photo of me in my blue bikini. I do not look too thin.

Yes, but are you Jewish? That's not a sarcastic question, and there's a reason why there are separate BMI scales for different races. With the exception of the Ethiopian Jews and, to a lesser extent, the Yemeni Jews, it is extremely unusual for Jewish women at a healthy weight to be at the lower end of the BMI scale. Just an example, my BMI is 23.0 and I couldn't lose more than another five pounds without looking scrawny.

I'm fairly certain I must be misunderstanding this. People who identify (ethnically and/or religiously) as Jewish come in all shapes/sizes/varieties/hair and skin colors.... Let's just take someone like Scarlett Johansson I can't imagine she has a very high BMI.

monicalosesweight

I for one believe it's fine that they are doing this. They basically are telling the modeling agencies - no more anorexic looking models and faking of photographs. If the person is healthy, they won't look like they are dying from a heroine overdose. It's pretty darn scary when you realize that many models are way above 5'5" inches and usually weigh so little that they literally starve themselves to fit into size 0 samples. It would be one thing if the actual designers picked healthy girls but the majority are usually looking for something so skinny that the person looks sick. They act like the model is a clothes hanger and in my point of view, suck as true designers because they can't even make clothing for a curvy woman. I remember watching one of those design shows and basically the actual designers freaked out over designing clothing for their heavier mothers. All of the outfits were awful! It's like they are unable to design for curves so I think this is a great way to force the issue. The few models I saw who were slightly curvy (hired by designers rebelling against the crazy size 0 fashion idea) looked healthy and normal - not anorexic yet they still screamed fat. Personally, I think in some ways they need to do this. The average size woman is not a twiggy shape and it's extremely bad to not show the variety that the human body can come in so maybe it'll force them to expand their horizons.

MoreBean13

I for one believe it's fine that they are doing this. They basically are telling the modeling agencies - no more anorexic looking models and faking of photographs. If the person is healthy, they won't look like they are dying from a heroine overdose. It's pretty darn scary when you realize that many models are way above 5'5" inches and usually weigh so little that they literally starve themselves to fit into size 0 samples. It would be one thing if the actual designers picked healthy girls but the majority are usually looking for something so skinny that the person looks sick. They act like the model is a clothes hanger and in my point of view, suck as true designers because they can't even make clothing for a curvy woman. I remember watching one of those design shows and basically the actual designers freaked out over designing clothing for their heavier mothers. All of the outfits were awful! It's like they are unable to design for curves so I think this is a great way to force the issue. The few models I saw who were slightly curvy (hired by designers rebelling against the crazy size 0 fashion idea) looked healthy and normal - not anorexic yet they still screamed fat. Personally, I think in some ways they need to do this. The average size woman is not a twiggy shape and it's extremely bad to not show the variety that the human body can come in so maybe it'll force them to expand their horizons.

I saw that episode- it was Project Runway. The 'full figured' outfits were really atrocious!