Yes, PROTEIN after a workout, but HOW MUCH?
Replies
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that makes sense to me. thanks for the info.
however, i work out on a near empty stomach in the morning, so POST-workout nutrition really does matter for me.
Post workout nutrition may matter in fasted individuals but the entire topic is a bit of a grey area yet, IMO. There's at least some evidence that it's not important even in fasted trainees due to a supercompensatory response to MPS when PWO nutrition is delayed.
Deldicque et al, 2010 (<
cannot locate the study or I would link it, looking for it now)
honestly, what ISN'T a gray area in fitness? lol0 -
that makes sense to me. thanks for the info.
however, i work out on a near empty stomach in the morning, so POST-workout nutrition really does matter for me.
Post workout nutrition may matter in fasted individuals but the entire topic is a bit of a grey area yet, IMO. There's at least some evidence that it's not important even in fasted trainees due to a supercompensatory response to MPS when PWO nutrition is delayed.
Deldicque et al, 2010 (<
cannot locate the study or I would link it, looking for it now)
honestly, what ISN'T a gray area in fitness? lol
There's certainly plenty of them but it seems like there's a lot more detail now than there was 10 years ago, and the problem is that people are still hanging on to things that just aren't very important, or sometimes not important AT ALL.
The collection of "old and useless advice" that is still thrown around can add up to a whole lot of unnecessary activities that I believe can lower adherence. So to me, it's important to make distinctions.0 -
I never get sore, I eat 1.3gxlb LBM. In 40g increments, one of which is 30 min before gym(7am) and one an hour after. I think if your goal is to burn fat avoid any post insuline spiking post workout for at least an hour. But none of this effects you being sore the next day.
DOMS is a condition resulting from the mismanagement of interstitial fluid. It's unavoidable when you change from a sedentary lifestyle to one in motion.
The frequency and intensity of it happening can be reduced by staying in motion. Lymph is primarily pumped out of the ducts back into the blood system by skeletal muscle movement, The elliptical is a good tool for this, but anything that fully engages the upper/lower/core at a light intensity will suffice, ie swimming, burpies, aerobics, yoga ect..
In short, make sure you warm up, and cool down.0 -
Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
. your muscles really are primed for protein uptake immediately post workout.
^ Irrelevant in most contexts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73G3NQZi9NE
http://fitnfly.com/learn-about-food/nutrition-facts#_
Alan Aragon (someone who knows more about this than you and I combined):
Alan: The post-exercise “anabolic window” is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you’re an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx. 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.
So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase post-exercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn’t support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast post-exercise carb orgy for optimal results.
Something that people don’t realize is that there’s no “magic anabolic window” that’s open for a short period of time near the workout & then rapidly disappears. As a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours (Burd et al, 2011).
A minimum of 24 hours of receptivity is bright at least...0 -
i get 66g of protein post workout with a shake, protein bar and 0fat chobani greek yogurt.0
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I never get sore, I eat 1.3gxlb LBM. In 40g increments, one of which is 30 min before gym(7am) and one an hour after. I think if your goal is to burn fat avoid any post insuline spiking post workout for at least an hour. But none of this effects you being sore the next day.
DOMS is a condition resulting from the mismanagement of interstitial fluid. It's unavoidable when you change from a sedentary lifestyle to one in motion.
The frequency and intensity of it happening can be reduced by staying in motion. Lymph is primarily pumped out of the ducts back into the blood system by skeletal muscle movement, The elliptical is a good tool for this, but anything that fully engages the upper/lower/core at a light intensity will suffice, ie swimming, burpies, aerobics, yoga ect..
In short, make sure you warm up, and cool down.
I guess this also means that "rest" days do not necessarily mean "sedentary" days and stretching/yoga is probably a good. idea. Is there a general, reliable place to obtain this information online or does it really come down to taking nutrition/fitness courses? I can read stuff online but without much experience, it's hard to know what's actually true and what isn't as someone sort of mentioned above.0 -
I work out first thing in the morning, and I find that if I don't eat something rich in protein afterwards, I feel sore the folowing days. I have tried eating with and without protein and it definately makes a difference with me.0
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Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
. your muscles really are primed for protein uptake immediately post workout.
^ Irrelevant in most contexts.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73G3NQZi9NE
http://fitnfly.com/learn-about-food/nutrition-facts#_
Alan Aragon (someone who knows more about this than you and I combined):
Alan: The post-exercise “anabolic window” is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you’re an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx. 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.
So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase post-exercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn’t support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast post-exercise carb orgy for optimal results.
Something that people don’t realize is that there’s no “magic anabolic window” that’s open for a short period of time near the workout & then rapidly disappears. As a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours (Burd et al, 2011).
You beat me to posting this! Sidesteal FTW!0 -
PWO Shakes make me feel better, so I drink them. I know it's largely a mental thing, but I don't care.
That being said, it's not some super secret protocol where after a 37 minute workout you have 12 minutes plus the square root of the size of the gym you worked out in minus your age when you first got to second base divided by the number of times you've listened to Ke$ha and enjoyed it.
Get adequate nutrition for the strain you put on your body. If you can eat before your workout, you're probably fine after the workout if you don't. If you can't eat before your workout, try to get some food in afterwards. If you can't do that, try to get some food in when you have a chance.
Folks who are in wicked good shape aren't that way because they time their pre, peri, and post workout nutrition flawlessly. They're in shape because they eat right most of the time, work hard, and possibly have good genetics/take good pharma. Get your basic diet and exercise down before worrying about all the minutiae that are MAYBE 1% of the whole picture.
If you spend all your time stressing about what you're eating the hour after workout, and not what you're doing the other 23 hours of the day, you're doing it wrong.
If your gym bag has more containers in it than a GNC, you're doing it wrong.
If half the stuff you're using is because I'mRippedAndAwesome on BB.com told you to pick it up and gave you a discount code for 10% off your purchase, you're doing it wrong.0 -
Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
. your muscles really are primed for protein uptake immediately post workout.
^ Irrelevant in most contexts.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73G3NQZi9NE
http://fitnfly.com/learn-about-food/nutrition-facts#_
Alan Aragon (someone who knows more about this than you and I combined):
Alan: The post-exercise “anabolic window” is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you’re an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx. 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.
So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase post-exercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn’t support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast post-exercise carb orgy for optimal results.
Something that people don’t realize is that there’s no “magic anabolic window” that’s open for a short period of time near the workout & then rapidly disappears. As a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours (Burd et al, 2011).
A minimum of 24 hours of receptivity is bright at least...
You gain muscle by eating at a calorie surplus and lifting, not by "eating more protein" protein isn't used as much as you think.
Ever seen a vegan bodybuilder?
Adequate protein is what I'm interested in for recovery from the strengthening and the strengthening isn't targeted at bodybuilding, just healing.0 -
obviously there are two varying opinions.
1) drink a 2-4:1 ratio of carb:protein post workout
OR
2) just ingest enough protein over the course of the day and ignore the timing
neither has been proven without a shadow of a doubt to be the correct option, so try 'em both and see what works best for you. personally i subscribe to the first option, and I don't tend to get very sore or stay sore for long. up to you!0 -
PWO Shakes make me feel better, so I drink them. I know it's largely a mental thing, but I don't care.
That being said, it's not some super secret protocol where after a 37 minute workout you have 12 minutes plus the square root of the size of the gym you worked out in minus your age when you first got to second base divided by the number of times you've listened to Ke$ha and enjoyed it.
Get adequate nutrition for the strain you put on your body. If you can eat before your workout, you're probably fine after the workout if you don't. If you can't eat before your workout, try to get some food in afterwards. If you can't do that, try to get some food in when you have a chance.
Folks who are in wicked good shape aren't that way because they time their pre, peri, and post workout nutrition flawlessly. They're in shape because they eat right most of the time, work hard, and possibly have good genetics/take good pharma. Get your basic diet and exercise down before worrying about all the minutiae that are MAYBE 1% of the whole picture.
If you spend all your time stressing about what you're eating the hour after workout, and not what you're doing the other 23 hours of the day, you're doing it wrong.
If your gym bag has more containers in it than a GNC, you're doing it wrong.
If half the stuff you're using is because I'mRippedAndAwesome on BB.com told you to pick it up and gave you a discount code for 10% off your purchase, you're doing it wrong.
I've heard about this time frame from a physician and trainer but have seen the controversy in the articles people have posted. Becoming one of those people who know what to do for their body overall to keep it fit is what I am interested in. From the novice's perspective, it just seems like a lot of trial and error. Oh and don't worry-I stress over the other "23 hours of the day" as well. I'm not one for favouritism.0 -
I've heard about this time frame from a physician and trainer but have seen the controversy in the articles people have posted. Becoming one of those people who know what to do for their body overall to keep it fit is what I am interested in. From the novice's perspective, it just seems like a lot of trial and error. Oh and don't worry-I stress over the other "23 hours of the day" as well. I'm not one for favouritism.
That's a great outlook then, whatever paradigm you end up following. As I said in the beginning, I drink a shake after my workout cause I like it and it makes me feel better. Find what works for you.0 -
Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
dat dere
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=131821473&p=678321011&viewfull=1#post678321011
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1239158210 -
Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
This.
There is no 'anabolic window'.
Sure there is. It lasts for about 24 hours...0 -
The only time a post workout meal may be beneficial is when there has been a long time between eating and/or are undertaking endurance exercises.
Or if you fit into the 99.9% of the population that gets less than 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass per day.
And if you're going to supplement to achieve your protein goals, then you might as well do it right after exercising since that has been shown to at least be helpful when one hasn't eaten for awhile and it certainly won't hurt.0 -
Just wanted to note that if you want the protein to be biologically available in your bloodstream AFTER a strength work out, you need to eat it BEFORE the workout so it can be digested and find its way from your intestinal tract into the bloodstream.0
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Something that people don’t realize is that there’s no “magic anabolic window” that’s open for a short period of time near the workout & then rapidly disappears. As a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours (Burd et al, 2011).[/i]
I haven't read the article. However, it would be strange if the receptivity was constant for 24 hours. One would assume that while it might persist for 24 hours, it would be highest initially and the slowly taper off over 24 hours. Either way, as long as your eating plenty of protein per day than it's not a huge issue. Most people don't get plenty of protein per day though.0 -
Also, is the success of trial and error a person not feeling sore at all the next day or just feeling a minimal amount of soreness? I guess I don't know how to figure out what amounts work because I don't know what to look out for in terms of the correct amounts 'working' if that makes any sense.
Thanks for your help thus far ; very helpful.
Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness is largely related to the intensity/ volume of exercise, is more common after a new activity and the inflammation is part of the repair process (healing cascade), you can't just take one dose of protein and expect to be recovered the next day. Little and often through the day is more important than a specific dose post workout.
You are more likely to reduce DOMS by eating a nutrient dense, anti inflammatory, antioxidant rich diet and balancing out rest and active recovery (eg. hitting 10,000 steps every day). Protein supplies the building blocks, carbs the fuel but there are a ton of other nutrients involved in repair and regeneration of any tissue. In excess both protein and carbs can promote inflammation.0 -
Something that people don’t realize is that there’s no “magic anabolic window” that’s open for a short period of time near the workout & then rapidly disappears. As a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours (Burd et al, 2011).[/i]
I haven't read the article. However, it would be strange if the receptivity was constant for 24 hours. One would assume that while it might persist for 24 hours, it would be highest initially and the slowly taper off over 24 hours. Either way, as long as your eating plenty of protein per day than it's not a huge issue. Most people don't get plenty of protein per day though.
You think if you eat within this "specific" window your muscles will grow? Growth is about 2 things. Intense Lifting and Calorie Surplus. Nothing more.
and rest.
but you're right.0 -
You think if you eat within this "specific" window your muscles will grow? Growth is about 2 things. Intense Lifting and Calorie Surplus. Nothing more.
Those two things are essential. But you'll be seriously handicapping yourself if you don't make sure to eat plenty of protein too.0 -
Something that people don’t realize is that there’s no “magic anabolic window” that’s open for a short period of time near the workout & then rapidly disappears. As a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours (Burd et al, 2011).[/i]
I haven't read the article. However, it would be strange if the receptivity was constant for 24 hours. One would assume that while it might persist for 24 hours, it would be highest initially and the slowly taper off over 24 hours. Either way, as long as your eating plenty of protein per day than it's not a huge issue. Most people don't get plenty of protein per day though.
It grows up to 24 hours and then tapers pretty quickly through the 36 hours mark.0 -
The only time a post workout meal may be beneficial is when there has been a long time between eating and/or are undertaking endurance exercises.
Or if you fit into the 99.9% of the population that gets less than 1 gram of protein per pound of lean body mass per day.
And if you're going to supplement to achieve your protein goals, then you might as well do it right after exercising since that has been shown to at least be helpful when one hasn't eaten for awhile and it certainly won't hurt.
Fair point - but you dropped off my initial statement "Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.". So, the point was made with the comment that you need to get enough.
The OP does not train fasted - they eat before in the day.0 -
Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
This.
There is no 'anabolic window'.
It's as if Morpheus just told me "There is no spoon"...0 -
So if i want to lose 15 lbs and then start building muscle dont drink protein right now... Right? First lose the weight and then start drinking protein?0
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So if i want to lose 15 lbs and then start building muscle dont drink protein right now... Right? First lose the weight and then start drinking protein?
Sorry, but this makes no sense. Drinking protein does not in itself cause muscle growth - you need to provide the muscle with stimulus. You also want to ensure that you maintain muscle while on a caloric deficit, so strength training and appropriate levels of protein are necessary for that. Losing weight is a different thing to losing fat.0 -
Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
Correct!
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So if i want to lose 15 lbs and then start building muscle dont drink protein right now... Right? First lose the weight and then start drinking protein?
That is not the optimum approach. Supplementing with protein does not "build muscle". Resistance training does. Or in the case of a deficit, resistance training helps maintain lean muscle mass and insures that the majority of your loss will be fat. So, why wait until you've lost "weight" that could include a significant amount of lean muscle mass. Start resistance training now, up protein intake if you are below 1 gram per lb of lean body mass and lose mostly fat. What would be the benefit to waiting?0 -
Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
Correct!
Why no, care to expand?0 -
Don't worry about timing it. Just eat enough in the day.
This
And many of the studies on protein post workout are done on fasted individuals.
Yes. Just focus on getting the amount your body needs and you should be fine. I eat between one and a half to two times what MFP says I need, because I low carb and train 7 days a week, and I am still losing boatloads of weight (2.5-4lb/wk) and getting nice, lean, tone muscles in the process!0
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