1200, and why it won't work

kskallen

I'm new here too, I use the MFP app on my phone and just discovered the message board tonight. Came across this post and I'm a 1200'er on day 2 of my weigh loss journey. Can I say as I am sitting here typing that my stomach is actually growling at 10pm?? I ate my 1200 and I'm HUNGRY. there's no way I could keep this up for a long period of time. My goal is to lose 85 lbs by my next birthday in 2014. So I have 13 months. I have yo yo dieted my whole adult life so my metabolism is probably so screwed up I won't lose anything this time.lol. I've lot the same 40 lbs probably 10 times since I was 16 (I am 42 now). But this post makes sense. OP, how do you advise a long term yo yo dieter? Is there hope for us? I hope so!

smeklc

bump

Angel0787

.

MyChocolateDiet

Thanks for your post. I get the concept starting at a higher calorie count gives you wiggle room to slowly lower calories. What I don't understand is where to start.

I have already been doing 1200 calories per day and eating back my exercise calories mostly because on the days I exercise I am actually hungrier and I find that when I'm satisfied and (thought I went off my diet) when I go to input them, I am within 100 calories of zero. Never under because I was afraid of starvation mode.

Now I have been doing this since Jan 1 (my new start point after having done it during the fall for a short time and then stopping because my husband did not approve of my using slim fast shakes and stopped buying them beleiving they contained weight loss drugs). For these two reasons I have no idea how many calories I was originally eating? Only that now I am eating 1200 calories and eating back any and all calories I earn through exercise. Usually about 200-400 and when you add that additional 100 calories cushion I gave myself to avoid the dreaded "starvation mode" most days I eat 1500-1700 calories when I workout and 1200-1300 when I don't workout.

I hope this up and down is not hurting me but I am literally hungrier on the days I workout and less so on the days I don't.

Okay gotta go work on making my ticker, I got weighed today and found out I am actually heavier than I thought...hope this isn't due to my autumn and new years attempts at weight loss. Might never know because I didn't weigh myself when I started for fear of turning into a scale junkie which I've become in the past when dropping weight. (semi unrelated side note....in the past I have lost 51 lbs doing a food separation program that encourages meats and fats, but discourages all but the most fiber filled carbs and limits strictly sugar) Unsure if you'd reason that low calories account for that but honestly I did not count calories at the time because it was not part of the plan so I could guess that it might have been high calories because you were allowed very fatty foods. By the way I did keep it off for years before drastic circumstances caused me to put on weight again (injuries, surgeries, and eating whatever others gave me). I feel confident I can get it back off but hubby wants to see me do it the way he saw work, while I want an easy way that includes easy shakes and bars, so calorie counting is my choice. I am a woman and I am 5'3" and I am sedentary or was when I started and filled this out, so that might account for why, much to my surprise 1200 seemed like a low number but ended up being comfortable for me. Formerly I would often feel too full on whatever amount I was previously eating. I can't however imagine how a normal healthy man could eat 1200 calories. I can only compare a man's often stated 1800 calorie need to my 1800 calorie recommendation when I was a nursing mom and I would have died, exploded, and pulled my own hair out if I were trying to survive on so few calories. So that part I get. Not sure I get why anyone other than short, slothy people like myself would try to subsist on so few calories and how that would feel?

karlalband

This is going to be long, and sorry there is no TL;DR version! So for those of you who are frustrated with results, I would like to give you my input, for whatever it's worth.

I am one of you. I was always a bit chubby growing up and I damn near blew up in college, tipping the scale at 182 as a 5'6" sophomore. I put on the freshman 15, plus another 35 in my first two semesters. So I know what all of you are going through. I went through it. By 2010, (five years later), I was competing in my very first amateur natural bodybuilding show at 128 pounds and roughly 6% bodyfat. If it were not for an injury to my L4 disc, I would still be competing, and have no doubt that I would have obtained professional natural status. But as life would have it, I'm one of those that cannot "do", so I decided to "teach". I obtained my NASM personal training certification, which was a breeze, and went on to focus primarily on performance and general nutrition. That being said, my client list has been mostly group seminars at gyms, and womens groups primarily. I am not a personal trainer by occupation...it's merely a continuation of my intense interest in the field. I do it in my free time.

Now, to this magical number that seems to be popping up quite a bit on these forums. 1200, and the associated abbreviations that go with them: BMR, TDEE. More importantly, I'd like to address the frustrations that come with these dictionary terms, and convoluted result of trying to follow a plan like this for moderately to severely overweight individuals.

Back in 2008, we were fighting a war on Calories In vs Calories Out. Which is just a fancy way of saying how much you eat vs how much your body uses per day. Much of the weight loss community had not come together in agreement on whether this was actually the golden rule. After all, there is much money to be made when you can convince entire sample groups that they could eat however much they wanted and still lose weight. That attitude has fizzled in the last few years, but it is still quite prevalent in other forms. I am very happy to see the fitness forums of today argue for the affirmative in this equation...and hope newcomers to the dieting world can accept it as an overarching statute in all their efforts.

1200 is a number that is guaranteed to make almost EVERYONE lose weight. Aside from the elderly, and very young, 1200 calories a day is a paltry sniff of food. It's a dab of nutrients, and it's almost impossible to follow on a consistent (years) basis. The number itself mocks you and makes you feel inadequate. How is it that others are eating only 1200 a day and my own gut is turning itself inside out? Why do I feel like I'm dying eating a measly 400 calorie snack, 3 times a day? That's because this number is basically the bare minimum you need to survive. You will live on...yes..but in misery. This is the kind of diet that borderline anorexic supermodels are on, and yet you don't look like them, do you? This is the BMR. Basal Metabolic Rate. It is what your body needs in order to maintain healthy tissue and organ function, to keep your heart beating and your brain working. What if your body doesn't get the amount of calories required for its basal processes? It looks to borrow, lend, from existing stores. Mainly, it looks for sugar. If there's none of that floating around, it goes for fat. No fat? it'll literally eat your muscles and organs until you no longer live. That's called starving to death. But, let's go back to just "body looking for fat" , which I assume most people on this website have an abundance of. Fat is your insurance. It's the rainy day fund your body has hoarded to ensure that if one day, you run out of food, it has a back up plan to keep you alive.

I always use this metaphor with my clients. Imagine you and I were stranded in the desert with only a canteen of water, and no hope of food. I would die a much quicker death than you. I do not carry alot of fat. I have no insurance. That's the price I pay for wanting a "beach" body. The price you pay in modern society where food is abundant? Obesity, heart disease, diabetes associated with insulin insensitivity. These are first world problems (no meme's please!).

1200 your BMR. so the solution must seem simple. eat 1200, eat it everyday, and eat it until you look like someone who only eats 1200 calories a day. It's literally that simple....or is it? No. No, it never is.

Severely overweight individuals cannot maintain something like a 1200 calorie diet unless they have incredible (and i mean incredible) willpower. That's just human nature. You see some progress in the first two weeks and you don't think a cheat day will hurt you. You let one cheat day become a second and third, and you're right back where you started, with interest. I'm not saying you can't do it. But if you had THAT much self control, I don' t think you would have gotten fat in the first place. That's just my opinion of course. If you are one of those people that can commit to a total 180 change, I applaud you. But this is where I would estimate 70-80% of people regress. The inability to eat only 1200 calories for the rest of your life. THE REST OF YOUR LIFE (assuming you don't exercise). If you put a gun to my head and said, eat 1200 calories a day for the next five years. I would probably be dead at some point before the time ran out. I'd like to think I am a beacon of willpower. But setting unrealistic expectations of yourself only leads to a crushing feeling of defeat.

I made that assumption in haste. Let's say you are one of the proud few who can do the 1200, and do it consistently, without fault or fail, for a very long time. Is 1200 the best place to start? Is it healthy to go from eating 4000 calories a day to 1200? The answer is no. Not physically, not mentally, not emotionally. You didn't put the weight on overnight, did you? Do you think it will come off overnight? Do you have delusions of losing 30 lbs in 2 weeks? If so, STOP READING. For the rest of you that have followed me thus far, allow me to elaborate.

Weight loss must be viewed as a PROGRESSION. What do I mean by that? Any sort of progression, or improvement in a task must be allowed to move forward. That is, there must be room for improvement at every step of the process. When we set a caloric goal of 1200, we move the end goal to the very beginning, and that is very, very bad. Think about it. If for any reason your weight loss plateaus, what would you do? go to 1000 calories and lose another five pounds and plateau again, with 150 pounds to go? Would you drop another 200 calories to 800? Or would you believe in this "starvation mode" that's floating around out there, and actually eat more? When you gain 3 pounds back the very next day, then what? You are setting yourself up to fail.

The metaphor for the point above is easy. Let's say you want to bench press 300 pounds. Let's say you can bench press 150 right now. What's the more sensible way to approach the task? Keep loading 300 pounds on the bar and failing? Or try for 155 the next time you attempt it?

Weight loss as a progression of events and milestones looks very much like something I experienced with one of my favorite clients. Let's call her Monica. This was our 40 week long dialogue. And an testimony to the power of client compliance!

Monica is a 300 (ish) pound woman in her late 30's. She has set a long term goal of 150 pounds lost, a VERY long term goal of being 120 pounds (like her college years), and an immediate goal of "lose 10 pounds". That's great. I love it when goals are laid out like this. I love it with they are realistic and periodized and given deadlines.

Monica has done her research and she says her BMR is 1350 (she's naturally pretty muscular!).. her TDEE is 2200, and currently she is eating about 3000-3300 calories a day (she's an honest and great food logger). Monica has started a women's cardio class at the local Taekwondo Academy that meets three times a week, she does weight training 3 times a week, starting two weeks ago, and she walks about 2 miles a day. THIS IS IMPORTANT. If you think you can lose weight and meet goals without exercising to some extent, stop reading. You've given up on yourself, and I cannot help you.

She asks me if she should eat 2000 calories a day.

I say, Monica, eat 3000. That's right. 3000 for a week. Between her cries of objection, I convince her to trust me. 3000 for one week.

A week later Monica comes to me and we weigh in. 301 pounds. She blames me for making her fatter, to which I tell her...I'm charging by the session so the less time she complains the more time we can work. Monica is a good sport, and we get through our workout and then I say to her that I want her to eat only 2700 calories the next week.

A week passes, and she comes in. We weigh, 297. She's thrilled. all her problems are solved 2700 calories and she lost 5 pounds! No, Monica. Eat 2800 this week. WHY she asks. She implores me. She begs me to bring her down to 2500. I tell her until she loses weight 4 consecutive weeks in a row, I will no longer charge her for the sessions.

A week later, after Monica has eaten 2800 a day, she comes back and we weigh in. 295. The next week after that?(still eating 2800), 295. The last and final week, she weighs in at 297 again. She's discouraged and I can tell. Despite wanting to comfort her, I keep a poker face. I tell her I want her to eat 2800 still, and eat it for the next two more weeks. I realize I'm on thin ice, and if she doesn't lose weight by her sixth week, we both have wasted six weeks time, and I have lost credibility and payment. But on the fifth week she is 294, and on the sixth, 292.

Monica loses weight at 2800 calories a day.

That's a net loss of 8 pounds over 6 weeks. More than 1 pound per week, despite Monica not being able to see it day by day. Despite her frustrations and wanting to tell me how to instruct her. Most of all despite her own doubts of if she was losing any weight at all. Over six weeks, Monica lost eight pounds. That is the hardest part of my job.

From there, the dieting process was an absolute delight. Instead of weekly sessions that she had to pay for, we touched base once a month in person. She emailed me all the time about her slip ups and the things that made her crave more food, or the events in her life that made her want to eat more and more. Most of it was just boredom, to be honest. Monica was bored, so she ate. But progression replaces boredom. It rewards incentive and motivation and ambition, so Monica was much happier.

The plan, after the sixth week was simple. Monica will reduce calories by 100 a week for six weeks. Six weeks later, she would be on diet of 2200 calories a day, while maintaining her commitment to exercise. The easiest way to do this was to cut fat...which is calorically very dense, and just so happens was her weak spot. She was eating more than 50% of her total calories in fat. A reduction of 10 grams per week was very achievable.

At some point, Monica got the idea, and didn't need me anymore. I had laid some invisible foundation beneath her that empowered her to make the decisions she knew would be beneficial. We still talk to this day, and Monica now weighs 147. She is aspiring to step on stage some day as a fitness model in her age group. I suppose that comes with the territory of having a bodybuilder as your nutritional trainer for 3 months. She is happy.

Now, if I were to have set Monica's start point at 2500, it may have all worked out just the same. But why didn't I? It's an interesting question after all. Why did I want her to start at 2800 and not 2500?

Weight loss is a PROGRESSION, and in any progression we must leave ample room for improvement. I had allowed for Monica to see improvement. This in turn fueled her motivation to continue. It eventually lead her to the more independent and free dieter that she has now become.

In the extreme case, if I had set Monica's start point at 1200, she would have lost weight. But beyond the initial period of weight loss, there is no progression. I could not have told her to cut another 100 without worrying if I was endangering her health. Certainly she would not have been able to progress and keep cutting another 500 off over six weeks. Imagine eating only 600 calories a day with 100 more pounds to lose!


I'm sorry this post was so long, but I felt that I might as well get it out there. 1200 won't work. there are no extremes in this thing we are all trying to do. Extremes are what got you here, seeking help. Moderation is what will bring you out, with a fuller and better understanding of your body than you ever though possible.

If anyone needs direction or guidance, I'm here to help. Please add me or PM me with your situation and I'll try to bring it into perspective.

**** If you have a specific question about your current situation, I will get to it. But please do not attach that as your friend request message, as I will be a clumsy fool and just click Accept, and lose it!!!**************

Monica was lucky she found you. Where were you 5 weeks ago when I hit the wall (plateau). I did good for almost 3 months on 1200 calories. average 2.4 lbs week. Not bad for a plus size woman. It motivated big time and I poured on the gym 2 to 3 hours - 4 to 5 times a week and then no more weight loss. Yep, even started not to feel well. And then I have now upped my calorie intake. Well still kind of confused and slowly starting to feel better. I felt like Monica did and I'm not thru this yet. Thank you for this post, cause it will help me maybe break thru all of this.

missyeighmy

Bump

pondmermaid

Thanks so much- this is really helpful!

Mary2302

Great post.. thanks for sharing..!!!

micneg01

bump

karlalband

Kudos to you on an excellent post. Should be required reading for everyone. Thank you for taking the time to write it! I lost from 208 to 130 on 1400 cals but never was satisfied with the way I looked. Then I discovered EM2WL which promotes this concept. I upped my cals for the first time in many years. All of sudden, my body is gaining muscle, and taking shape in a way that I never knew it could. It took me many years to figure out that I can eat more, and acheive BETTER results. So, yes, you can lose on 1200 cals, but you can also lose on 2000. In many ways, we are all Monicas. TFS!

I agree and I heard about EM2LW this week and I will be looking into that this weekend. I just told the man who posted all of this That I wish my name was Monica and how luck she was for his help!

aelunyu

Thanks everyone. Honestly I am fairly new to the forums at least, although I've been using MFP for a while to log meals for quite a while. I'm touched by the showing of support, and I am slowly getting to your individual questions!

PurpleCupcakes101

Great info. Thanks for posting.

vbradylady

Great post! I was struggling at 1200 and just recently upped my calories. After reading all the science and many articles, I think I have discovered my problem

AshlieA96

wow read it all! Good info thanks for sharing....

dchannell

Perfect timing. I am struggling with perhaps a totally different problem than some others here. I had gastric bi-pass in 2004 and went from almost 300 lb. down to 180 lbs. I managed to keep most of it off until last year when I fell and tore the ligaments in my knee. After micro fracture surgery I spent two months in a wheelchair and gained back to 234 lb. I started this program the 4th of January and due to hypertension and borderline diabetes, I also eliminated all sugar and artificial sweeteners including all carbonated beverages and also processed foods. I have literally become a totally different person. I cannot recall ever in my life feeling like I had control over my own body like I do now. My energy level has stayed through the roof every single day and my family is completely shocked, almost as much as I am at how different I feel. However, even though the 1200 calories of food is not a problem, I am actually struggling to continuously having to tweak my daily menus to add more food as I work out more. I am doing stretching everyday, the treadmill twice a day for 20-30 minutes and light weight training to build upper body strength every two or three days. I have lost 7 lbs. so far and I have no illusions I will lose more than a pound or so a week which is fine. I guess the biggest issue I have is that in order to get all the extra calories (after today's workout I am supposed to be eating an additional 700 calories above the 1200 programmed) I have set myself up on 6 smaller meals rather than three meals and a snack. I rarely can finish a meal and in the evening, I have little room for the evening snack. I am just never hungry. I know I am probably not getting enough to eat compared to how much I am exercising and I am really concerned I am "starving" my body by not eating enough. Anyone have suggestions?

jen_u_win

Thank you for this! I swear you somehow heard a conversation I've been having since yesterday.

sarahevenstar

Nicely put. Thank you for posting.

Mamax143

very informative thank you for sharing!

Dianak005

I really needed to hear this!!! I lost weight on Jenny craig in 2007 before I had my son. they had me on 1500 untill half way and then 1200. then they told me I would need to stay on that to maintain. I really didnt struggle on the 1200 while I was eating meals that were planed for me, but trying to do it on my own was another story. So I did reach my goal and then became pregnant right after and gained it back during and after my pregnancy. So now I am at it again but I really have read so much that suggests starting pretty high in calories and then droping them gradulally. You really laid it out and what I got from it is the only way people will maintain is to eat where they can eat forever once they reach their goal. My question is do you think that there is a certain way that people should get their calories of does it really come down to calories in calories out. I know you cant eat candy bars all day but say if you eat some bad choices as long as you stay in your calorie range will you still lose?

schondell

WHAT ABOUT CALS IN CALS OUT? NO?

tcompton70

Ok. So I'm curretly doing the 1200 calories and it is not working. I worked out for 4 months cycling 5-6 days a week burning 350-400 calories (per my heart rate monitor) and i only lost 5 lbs. My doctor put me at 1200, told me not to eat my exercise calories back and put me on a pill to help me stay at 1200. I'm currenlty trying to figure out what I should do. I'm 43 year old femail about 5'2" and currently at 210 lbs. Current goal is to loose 25 lbs. but ultimatly I want to loose 100 lbs.

I do not know your medical history or if you have any medical conditions, however, you may want to consult a dietitian and maybe find a new physician.

Secondly, knowing what your actual TDEE is of importance as this is where you can create your calorie deficit. Usually 15-20% below TDEE.

Take a look at this link. It offers great information and can offer some understanding. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/804485-in-place-of-a-road-map-2-0-revised-7-2-12?page=4

Thanks for the link. I just calculated my calories based on this link. Very eye opening. The calcs for Sedentary alone say I should be up to 1330 and with light activity up to 1596. So, I'm gonna increase my calories slowly along with my exercise intensity as aelunyu suggest.

Thanks Guys!!!

quellybelly

bump

katevarner

This post is phenomenal. Which model do you use for BMR and TDEE calculations? This is where my problem seems to lie. I get so many different answers that I'm just not sure how much to eat!

^ Same issue!

Please review this to aid in your questions! It offers great information and advice! http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/804485-in-place-of-a-road-map-2-0-revised-7-2-12?page=4

Did that. They show the 2 different ones which are literally over 1000 cals/day different. Hence my confusion!

I personally think that the calorie deficit should come from your actual TDEE (usually taking 250-300 calories from your TDEE to create the deficit.)
[/quote


Okay, I am just trying to get an understanding on this. So if my TDEE is 2005, then I should in intaking around 1705 calories daily, plus eating back those that I burn during exercise? I'm just trying to make sure that I understand it and am going in the right direction lol

No, if you use a deduction from TDEE, you don't eat exercise calories back as they should be figured in to your TDEE. Unless you figured it at sedentary. If you did, go back and run the numbers again with your workouts figured in.

dandandee

very good point, it totally makes sense really. Just like with anything you want to learn you need to start at the base, then work your way up (or in this case, work your way down - calorie wise :P)

I think some people though are missing that you said 'convoluted result of trying to follow a plan like this for moderately to severely overweight individuals." as in: this is especially for people who have a lot of weight to lose.

For someone like me who only wishes to lose 15 pounds and didn't eat all that much extra in the first place, 1200 is perfectly reasonable.

thanks a lot, very motivating story and good info!

aelunyu

If any of you have questions on initial setpoints (where you should start), it's really a matter of where you are starting from. Obviously a girl trying to fit into her spring break bikini and wants to lose 5 pounds is different than a mother who wants to shed her pregnancy weight, or an older woman who is getting back into the rhythm of fitness.

There is no way I can establish setpoints without knowing some semi personal things about you. That requires a leap of faith.

jdsgigi

Bump

pamelapeldo

Excellent post. Thanks!

ImmaLocStar

Great info! I do think a lot of people should read this so they can understand the progression which I think makes people feel defeated after a while.
I haven't eaten my allotted 1420 and then 1330 calories since I started MFP and I don't feel starving. My husband has an allotment of 200 cals more than me daily and is ready to faint most days from hunger so I guess it also has a lot to do with how you "used" to eat as well. I had triplets 6 yrs ago and was supposed to eat 4200 cals a day and I wanted to die, I couldn't make it past 2000 of "healthy food". I can eat 6000 cals a day in junk food though.

brunetteavoxgirl

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
MFP has me on like 1900 a day, before exercise; and my grandma looked at my app and told me it was wrong and I needed to eat 1200.
I tried it. For a day. Doesn't work. I'm still so hungry after 1200 a day.

alimac92

Very informative thank you!
After 2 years at 1200 and not always eating my exercise calories and getting poor results on the scales, I think I will up my calorie intake.
I feel so restricted and guilty if I go over my 1200! Although the most I have lost is 21 pounds I do have to say I have gone down in clothes sizes from 20/18 to 16/14 on top and 16 to 14/12 on the bottom. So something was working, however I'm changing the sedentary entry right now!

Thanx for giving me food for thought!
:flowerforyou: