Why should I go VEGAN??
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To SteveJWatson
You make valid points."Any place there is livestock there will be dead/ill stock. I can (just about) carry a sick sheep - now try and do that with a cow please. Of course they are moved by loader if they can’t walk. "
Interesting point – of course you would not wish to carry a terminally sick animal; either financially or humanely. It would make sense to bring a quick end to suffering. However, I guess the ultimate view of the vegan society as a whole would be that everyone switches to a vegan lifestyle and so you would not have the worry of carrying or despatching sick livestock as you would be an arable farmer.
Of course, this would permanently change the landscape and possibly demand more acreage for crop production – I don’t know – but maybe there is already enough acreage as we wouldn’t be growing drops to feed animals for consumption?"Male chicks are usually gassed, for what its worth."
True – actually they are dropped into a large dustbin and when the bin is full the gas canister is thrown in and the lid secured, so many chicks at the bottom of the bin actually slowly suffocate as they are smothered by the chicks above them. Not the quick death one would imagine then. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have seen this process myself.
Considering then that animal slaughter is not as swift as the meat market would have us believe, my choice is to change to a vegan diet and lifestyle. It is of course, each to their own.0 -
I made the decision to be vegan over a year ago, and have not missed meat in the least. I feel better physically and mentally, and like you, I did not want to contribute to unecessary suffering of animals. I grew up on a small beef farm where the animals were treated humanely for the most part, but the treatment of animals on today's factory farms is not humane. Those animals will often never walk on grass, feel the sunshine or roll in the dust during their entire lives. There's something fundamentally wrong with humans enslaving animals in this manner when other sources of food are available and more sustainable.0
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I'm a vegetarian, but I've thought about going vegan before. I'll have to see that documentary.
Be prepared when you go to watch that documentary. Parts of it are brutal... I had to fast forward through some parts since I just couldn't bare to watch them.
I am vegetarian. I don't consume a lot of animal products. I do still eat eggs and use the odd bit of milk or cream in my coffee.
I have thought about becoming vegan however right now it's not good for finances and my husband loves meat so those would still be purchased (although he doesn't eat nearly as much since I have stopped eating meat). It was a bit of a tough switch for me to become vegetarian due to how many meals we eat at my in laws however they have been good with making me another option for dinner without meat.
Being vegetarian, and if I make the switch to vegan, I will not and don't hold other peoples choices against them nor do i think they are wrong in what they choose to eat. Everyone can make a choice and it's no one elses place to judge a persons choices in life. Just because one may believe in the vegan lifestyle doesn't mean it is better or worse than a meat eater.0 -
IN before the lock!0
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LMFAO,,,,Why should I go VEGAN??
Because you want to sacrifice your own personal needs so that people like me can eat more bacon...0 -
I think that it may be a good idea. I am Pesketarian so nothing but fish. I plan to switch from not even that but I am on a high protein diet so I need my protein. It is whatever you choose to do. Make sure to take supplements providing that not all things Vegans eat have your daily nutrients.0
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Can't see why this thread would need to be locked - can you?IN before the lock!0 -
a couple things
1) it's more than the killing (and throwing chicks into a grinder is pretty messed up), it's how they're raised. I'm all for raising your own animals and slaughtering them for food. I'm not against that AT ALL. But I'm against the disgusting practices that take place at factory farms, such as:
- Chickens' beaks are sanded down to a nub by a belt sander - imagine someone did that to your teeth. How would that feel?
- Chickens raised for meat are now so genetically modified, that many can't even STAND UP because their breast is so large.
- You don't address the forced pregnancy of cows to make them lactate nonstop. That's gotta be a special kind of hell.
- Those chicks that get thrown into a meat grinder? Where does the chicken "by-product" go? Back into the food they feed the other chickens. So we force them to eat themselves. Nice.
2) What about those environmental effects? Being the second highest contributor to air pollution and global warming - ahead of all traffic? (again, not propaganda - just pesky facts)
3) There are appreciable health risks with the typical American consumption of meat. In the last hundred years, our meat consumption has risen by 500%. That means we're all eating 5x more meat than a typical American in 1900.
Guess what else has risen by about 500%? Prevalence of heart disease, stroke, cancer, etc.
Now I'm not going to ignore that increased methods detection plays a role in that number rising, but I would venture to guess it's not the only contributor. Why? Because when a man who has eaten copious amounts of meat his whole life, and is now pre-heart surgery due to blocked arteries, is treated with a plant-based diet, his arterial blockage dissipates DRAMATICALLY in a short period of time. Surgery can be delayed for years, if it's even needed at all. This isn't anecdote, this comes from studies. Peer-reviewed an everything.
If eating a veggie based diet can reverse heart disease, don't you think that eating it your whole life will help PREVENT it?
1) Not in this country they aint - its done with a thing a bit like the clippers you use for dogs nails. Beak clipping in general cuts the sharp overhang on the upper mandible so that chickens don't peck at each other, since they can be pretty nasty to each other, even in the freest range situations. I dont think free range hens are routinely clipped. Either way its below the quick, so its more akin to nail cutting. They need the rest of the beak to eat.
There are breeds of meat bird who grow so fast they have leg probs etc - they are only 'genetically modified' in that they are selectiveley bred. Again, free ranging helps take care of this.
Chicken by-products go for dogfood etc, not back to chickens - the regs since foot and mouth over here are very strict. Although chickens are omnivorous so I have less of a problem with them eating meat protein. I've seen mine eat all kinds of bugs, small frogs and once or twice small mice (!).
NB - I am not a chicken farmer. I just have a few.
Cows are not 'forced' to get pregnant - they are served/ai'd when they come in heat. Animals dont get 'time off from having a baby'. Its the same with my sheep - although they are served naturally, they come into season in autumn, and are then tupped to have lambs in the spring. Livestock are not pets, nor are they wild animals - that said, most wild creatures are mated once every ovulation (unless they are barren).
2) I would dispute that it is ahead of traffic - but then again, what about crop production? That burns a hell of a lot of diesel, and the world needs feeding whether it be plant or animal matter. Intensive arable production aims to meet the needs of the population, so vegan or not you are buying into this.
3) I am not attempting to say one is healthier than the other - I only waded in to clear up farming misconceptions. Like I said, if you don't want to eat meat dont. I would imagine that the vast majority of the population in 1900 did a hell of a lot more manual work than people do now and therefore burn more calories. They also died of a whole load of other diseases and lived shorter lives. There are a hell of a lot of differences in daily life, I'm not sure how you can really compare the two with any degree of accuracy. I would happen to agree that people need to eat more fruit and veg - PROPER fruit and veg...ie tin its natural state, and not processed in some way.0 -
I made the decision to be vegan over a year ago, and have not missed meat in the least. I feel better physically and mentally, and like you, I did not want to contribute to unecessary suffering of animals. I grew up on a small beef farm where the animals were treated humanely for the most part, but the treatment of animals on today's factory farms is not humane. Those animals will often never walk on grass, feel the sunshine or roll in the dust during their entire lives. There's something fundamentally wrong with humans enslaving animals in this manner when other sources of food are available and more sustainable.
We dont have the large indoor cattle units over here - most ruminants are grazed for some of the year - some very hardy breeds of cattle outwinter, the rest are brought in and fed silage etc over the winter, which has been going on since forever. Most sheep outwinter here and are out most of the year.0 -
To SteveJWatson
You make valid points."Any place there is livestock there will be dead/ill stock. I can (just about) carry a sick sheep - now try and do that with a cow please. Of course they are moved by loader if they can’t walk. "
Interesting point – of course you would not wish to carry a terminally sick animal; either financially or humanely. It would make sense to bring a quick end to suffering. However, I guess the ultimate view of the vegan society as a whole would be that everyone switches to a vegan lifestyle and so you would not have the worry of carrying or despatching sick livestock as you would be an arable farmer.
Of course, this would permanently change the landscape and possibly demand more acreage for crop production – I don’t know – but maybe there is already enough acreage as we wouldn’t be growing drops to feed animals for consumption?"Male chicks are usually gassed, for what its worth."
True – actually they are dropped into a large dustbin and when the bin is full the gas canister is thrown in and the lid secured, so many chicks at the bottom of the bin actually slowly suffocate as they are smothered by the chicks above them. Not the quick death one would imagine then. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have seen this process myself.
Considering then that animal slaughter is not as swift as the meat market would have us believe, my choice is to change to a vegan diet and lifestyle. It is of course, each to their own.
Yes, but my point is, If I had a sick sheep I couldn't treat in the field - I might bring it in, and to do that I could carry it to the truck and put it in the back. I could not do this with a cow. If it was beyond help - I can't think of a situation where any livestockman I know wouldn't shoot it there and then.
The problem with the 'just grow crops for human consumption' argument is that it ignores geography. Not all grain makes the cut (in fact not a lot of it over here) to be suitable for milling etc and all it is good for is fodder. Not all land is suitable for putting under the plough.
Of course, the lines are blurred slightly, even though good arable land is worth more than pasture - where they are blurred is that poor arable land might grow very good grass and the farmer may choose to graze animals as opposed to grow fodder crops. Poor grazing land is really only suitable for hardy cattle and sheep in this country. It is often shallow and at the kind of gradient that I wouldn't fancy driving a tractor on thankyou.
I dont know any more than you about male chicks. I am not a chicken farmer. I had thought in big hatcheries they were on some kind of conveyor belt, not that it makes it much better. I have no idea how the organic people address this - I can imagine it is on their agenda somewhere.0 -
I bet all of you preahing about pollution and saving the environment by consuming less meat still drive cars...0
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I bet all of you preahing about pollution and saving the environment by consuming less meat still drive cars...
i dont.
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I bet all of you preahing about pollution and saving the environment by consuming less meat still drive cars...
But we have to start somewhere - right?
For me, I drive when I have to and choose greener options when I can - now - back to the topic ...:flowerforyou:0 -
also, many vegans who DO drive cars also drive hybrids and/or more gas efficient cars. so... there's that.
SteveJWatson - you make a lot of interesting and valid points, however, I'd urge you to check out a documentary or two - like Forks Over Knives. I recognize they have an agenda they're pushing, but I always think it's valuable to look at the other side's argument too. There really are many, many factory farms in the united states where the conditions are just awful. your experience may be different, and I like that you seem to have many free-range farms in your area, but unfortunately the vast majority of the meat and poultry products in the US don't come from farms like that.
and as for the traffic statistic... i'm not 100% certain of it, but the statistic references worldwide livestock production vs traffic (which includes areas with very minimal traffic but lots of livestock).
Regardless, the impact of meat production on pollution is very real:
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0261e/a0261e00.pdf
http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp
http://www.environmentalintegrity.org/documents/hazardouspollutionfromfactoryfarms.pdf (this one has lots of technical jargon, but it's incredibly detailed and in depth. the conclusion they come to is below)Despite significant influence by the regulated community and problems with both monitoring and data analysis, the NAEMS results document high levels of air pollution around factory farms and demonstrate the need for increased public health protection for rural communities. This study adds to a growing body of research showing that factory farms are industrial-scale polluters, and EPA’s failure to regulate CAFO pollution under the Clean Air Act and other laws runs afoul of sound science.0 -
also, many vegans who DO drive cars also drive hybrids and/or more gas efficient cars. so... there's that.
SteveJWatson - you make a lot of interesting and valid points, however, I'd urge you to check out a documentary or two - like Forks Over Knives. I recognize they have an agenda they're pushing, but I always think it's valuable to look at the other side's argument too. There really are many, many factory farms in the united states where the conditions are just awful. your experience may be different, and I like that you seem to have many free-range farms in your area, but unfortunately the vast majority of the meat and poultry products in the US don't come from farms like that.
and as for the traffic statistic... i'm not 100% certain of it, but the statistic references worldwide livestock production vs traffic (which includes areas with very minimal traffic but lots of livestock).
Regardless, the impact of meat production on pollution is very real:
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0261e/a0261e00.pdf
http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp
http://www.environmentalintegrity.org/documents/hazardouspollutionfromfactoryfarms.pdf (this one has lots of technical jargon, but it's incredibly detailed and in depth. the conclusion they come to is below)Despite significant influence by the regulated community and problems with both monitoring and data analysis, the NAEMS results document high levels of air pollution around factory farms and demonstrate the need for increased public health protection for rural communities. This study adds to a growing body of research showing that factory farms are industrial-scale polluters, and EPA’s failure to regulate CAFO pollution under the Clean Air Act and other laws runs afoul of sound science.
I think the general consensus amongst the FAO and other oranisations is that small ruminant farming is the way forward in terms of sustainable meat production - which is lucky for me, given that I am a sheep man... :bigsmile:
I undersand that ruminants emit methane - my point is/was is that is that any worse than heavy pesticide, fertiliser and diesel nescessary to produce plants for human consumption on a large scale?0 -
also, many vegans who DO drive cars also drive hybrids and/or more gas efficient cars. so... there's that.
SteveJWatson - you make a lot of interesting and valid points, however, I'd urge you to check out a documentary or two - like Forks Over Knives. I recognize they have an agenda they're pushing, but I always think it's valuable to look at the other side's argument too. There really are many, many factory farms in the united states where the conditions are just awful. your experience may be different, and I like that you seem to have many free-range farms in your area, but unfortunately the vast majority of the meat and poultry products in the US don't come from farms like that.
and as for the traffic statistic... i'm not 100% certain of it, but the statistic references worldwide livestock production vs traffic (which includes areas with very minimal traffic but lots of livestock).
Regardless, the impact of meat production on pollution is very real:
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0261e/a0261e00.pdf
http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp
http://www.environmentalintegrity.org/documents/hazardouspollutionfromfactoryfarms.pdf (this one has lots of technical jargon, but it's incredibly detailed and in depth. the conclusion they come to is below)Despite significant influence by the regulated community and problems with both monitoring and data analysis, the NAEMS results document high levels of air pollution around factory farms and demonstrate the need for increased public health protection for rural communities. This study adds to a growing body of research showing that factory farms are industrial-scale polluters, and EPA’s failure to regulate CAFO pollution under the Clean Air Act and other laws runs afoul of sound science.
I think the general consensus amongst the FAO and other oranisations is that small ruminant farming is the way forward in terms of sustainable meat production - which is lucky for me, given that I am a sheep man... :bigsmile:
I undersand that ruminants emit methane - my point is/was is that is that any worse than heavy pesticide, fertiliser and diesel nescessary to produce plants for human consumption on a large scale?
I'm not sure, and it's worth looking into. but that said i'm also of the opinion that we should follow a similar path to small ruminant farming when dealing with plant production too. we should eat as locally as possible. Obviously we can't ONLY eat local all the time, but if we do a lot MORE of it, it will promote that kind of business vs the giant factory farms.
To me none of this is about being perfect, but just doing a little bit more to be conscious of the earth we live on. if each of us did a little, it would amount to a whole lot. Eat vegan once or twice a week, eat locally, buy locally, support mom-and-pop stores and farmers markets. That kind of thing makes a huge difference if we all make tiny changes.0 -
I'm not sure, and it's worth looking into. but that said i'm also of the opinion that we should follow a similar path to small ruminant farming when dealing with plant production too. we should eat as locally as possible. Obviously we can't ONLY eat local all the time, but if we do a lot MORE of it, it will promote that kind of business vs the giant factory farms.
To me none of this is about being perfect, but just doing a little bit more to be conscious of the earth we live on. if each of us did a little, it would amount to a whole lot. Eat vegan once or twice a week, eat locally, buy locally, support mom-and-pop stores and farmers markets. That kind of thing makes a huge difference if we all make tiny changes.
I completely agree. Everyone doing a little amounts to a whole lot. I know I have the willpower and means to go full vegan, so I will, but if a ton of people just decided to eat less or buy locally more, then we would still be better off.
Hybrid/electric car is next on my list!0 -
I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.
I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.
For me, this is why..
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.
The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.
It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.
It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.0 -
I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.
I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.
For me, this is why..
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.
The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.
It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.
It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.
I don't think your experience, or what you're describing, is a factory farm - unless I'm mistaken, which is possible. :P0 -
I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.
I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.
For me, this is why..
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.
The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.
It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.
It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.
I don't think your experience, or what you're describing, is a factory farm - unless I'm mistaken, which is possible. :P
It was on the smaller side (about 130 producing cows) but in practice was a factory farm. It produced milk for the mass market, not any sort of specialty.
Also on the environmental standpoint with the claim that the methane from cattle causes considerable air pollution: The peak population of beef cattle was actually in the '70s. We now produce about the same amount of meat, but with fewer individual cattle due to them being bred to each produce more over the generations. Yet air pollution is a bigger problem now than it was in the '70s... hmmm. Considering the plains of the US also used to be covered in bison which presumably produced the same or more methane, I don't buy it.
Again, I have no problem with someone being vegan. I do have a problem with people spouting off "facts" that they get from a few biased sources (like PETA, good lord) rather than looking at credible sources from both sides. Since most people don't have the background that I do, I'm being sort of the Devil's advocate here.0
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