Afterlife: Is There Life After Death?

Gallowmere1984

A death-bed testimony is considered to be very powerful as a dying person is not presumed to lie under the principle of "nemo moriturus praesumitur mentiri". All of the eye-witnesses went to their deaths bearing the testimony of the truth of Christ's resurrection. They could have easily escaped death by declaring it all a lie---they did not, gladly suffering death to the denial of what they knew to be the truth. What you said is quite irrelevant.

I think you missed my point. I said false/faulty on purpose. False is obvious: lying. Faulty is a bit of a different beast though. It has been shown time and again that people do not always see what they think they saw, though they may well and truly believe otherwise. This has been proven to apply to single individuals, small groups of people, and large collectives. This is something that has always made religion a bit suspect to me.

To be a bit more blunt: one can be completely full of **** and not even realize it.

alexbusnello

I think so! And i hope I can choose how i'm going to look like in my next life haha That'd be awesome.

ladyrider55

Absolutely I totally Believe there's Life after Death. Without God in your Life there is no Life....AMEN.

SanteMulberry

A death-bed testimony is considered to be very powerful as a dying person is not presumed to lie under the principle of "nemo moriturus praesumitur mentiri". All of the eye-witnesses went to their deaths bearing the testimony of the truth of Christ's resurrection. They could have easily escaped death by declaring it all a lie---they did not, gladly suffering death to the denial of what they knew to be the truth. What you said is quite irrelevant.

I think you missed my point. I said false/faulty on purpose. False is obvious: lying. Faulty is a bit of a different beast though. It has been shown time and again that people do not always see what they think they saw, though they may well and truly believe otherwise. This has been proven to apply to single individuals, small groups of people, and large collectives. This is something that has always made religion a bit suspect to me.
.

Do you really believe that the very close associates of Jesus (those who were to become the Apostles) who spent three years in close company with Him, were mistaken? Who or what was behind the conspiracy then? Matthew's gospel mentions (in 28:11-15) that there were Jews who were circulating a false story about the events of the Cross, noting that they were still telling the same story at the time of the writing of the gospel (and they still tell this story today). Individuals (and groups) will also go to great lengths in resisting a truth that they do not want to accept.

Proyecto_AN

Don't worry; you will be recycled.

Stella_Leigh

They were NOT "handed down orally for a long time". The gospels were in circulation in rudimentary form in the churches immediately (they were spoken of in the Book of Acts) and the Epistles were circulated in the churches as soon as they were penned. You are quite wrong but you will no doubt believe what you want to believe.

Yeah, adam and eve (another laughable story of how the Earth was populated) were writing on fig leaves to make sure that their story was passed down correctly to writers of the bible.:laugh:
Thanks for the entertainment.

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Have you never heard of "Mitochondrial Eve"? You really shouldn't laugh at things you do not understand. It was Moses who penned the first five books of the Bible and he likely related it as it was told to him. By the way, Biblical archeology is uncovering fascinating evidence that the Exodus actually took place. Here is a link to an article that tells of the more recent discoveries (just one is the discovery of a large number of coral encrusted chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea). http://www.triumphpro.com/exodus.pdf

The best part of posts like this is the out and out disrespect that is ok because LOL is attached to the end. Everyone can agree to disagree that's great and fine but posts like this bring out the most self-righteous intelligentsia from both sides.

This.

Also, worrying about whatever may or may not be the case about the afterlife is no way to get through this one.

MaraDiaz

I doubt it but I hope so because if there is I have some serious haunting to do!

SanteMulberry

"... This is something that has always made religion a bit suspect to me...."

You SHOULD be suspicious of religion---especially where someone has something material to gain from promoting it (as did the founders of other religions in the times after the first century founding of the Judeo-Christian faith. I won't name them to avoid offending others but you probably know which ones I mean.) The writers of the New Testament had not a thing to gain in this world. They were thrown out of the synagogues (a very grave thing to have happened to a Jew, in first century Israel), mocked and reviled, beaten and left for dead...and ultimately martyred.

Gallowmere1984

"... This is something that has always made religion a bit suspect to me...."

You SHOULD be suspicious of religion---especially where someone has something material to gain from promoting it (as did the founders of other religions in the times after the first century founding of the Judeo-Christian faith. I won't name them to avoid offending others but you probably know which ones I mean.) The writers of the New Testament had not a thing to gain in this world. They were thrown out of the synagogues (a very grave thing to have happened to a Jew, in first century Israel), mocked and reviled, beaten and left for dead...and ultimately martyred.

I am not saying that they had a single thing to gain from it. I am saying that the power of suggestion is an incredibly powerful thing. How else does someone convince otherwise relatively sane individuals to martyr themselves in the name of an invisible deity? All faiths have a history of these, not just the three chief monotheisms (though they are by far the greatest offenders).

I am sure you have seen, just as I have, this new wave homeopathy garbage that does appear to work wonders...until it's put into a well conducted double blind study, and the same results are achieved from placebo. Add to that line-up: faith healers, psychics, mediums, voodoo witchdoctors, etc. All of these things can have a profound impact on the people who believe in them, even though they have been proven to be utter bull****, time and again.

We are not debating effect here, as there is no denying the effect that suggestion can have on people. What we are debating is whether or not something non-temporal exists, which requires something completely different than the scientific method: it requires rationality. For someone to claim that life persists after it has obviously ceased is no different than someone claiming to have seen a four sided triangle. I don't need to go to where they claimed to have seen this four sided triangle and perform tests to know that it does not exist, as it would simply be a square.

SanteMulberry

"... This is something that has always made religion a bit suspect to me...."

You SHOULD be suspicious of religion---especially where someone has something material to gain from promoting it (as did the founders of other religions in the times after the first century founding of the Judeo-Christian faith. I won't name them to avoid offending others but you probably know which ones I mean.) The writers of the New Testament had not a thing to gain in this world. They were thrown out of the synagogues (a very grave thing to have happened to a Jew, in first century Israel), mocked and reviled, beaten and left for dead...and ultimately martyred.

I am not saying that they had a single thing to gain from it. I am saying that the power of suggestion is an incredibly powerful thing. How else does someone convince otherwise relatively sane individuals to martyr themselves in the name of an invisible deity? All faiths have a history of these, not just the three chief monotheisms (though they are by far the greatest offenders).

I am sure you have seen, just as I have, this new wave homeopathy garbage that does appear to work wonders...until it's put into a well conducted double blind study, and the same results are achieved from placebo. Add to that line-up: faith healers, psychics, mediums, voodoo witchdoctors, etc. All of these things can have a profound impact on the people who believe in them, even though they have been proven to be utter bull****, time and again.

We are not debating effect here, as there is no denying the effect that suggestion can have on people. What we are debating is whether or not something non-temporal exists, which requires something completely different than the scientific method: it requires rationality. For someone to claim that life persists after it has obviously ceased is no different than someone claiming to have seen a four sided triangle. I don't need to go to where they claimed to have seen this four sided triangle and perform tests to know that it does not exist, as it would simply be a square.

Many people have, of course, died for a lie (the mass delusion of the Heaven's Gate cult?). But who would die for something that they knew to be a lie? And they absolutely would have known that it was a lie. And what of the case of the Apostle Paul? As a "good Jew," he actually spent some period of time persecuting the followers of Jesus--he thought them to be infidels and quite out of their minds. Until the Lord Himself appeared to him on the road to Damascus (Paul--then known as Saul--was actually on his way to Damascus with letters from the High Priest in Jerusalem, to detain Jewish followers of Jesus from the synagogues there "and bring them back in chains"). Clearly something quite extraordinary happened to cause him to turn 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

There is a great deal in our universe that confounds us---but yet it can and does exist. To insist that the only things that can exist are limited to those we perceive with our five senses, is equivalent to a small child covering his/her eyes and insisting that he/she cannot be seen.

Gallowmere1984

Many people have, of course, died for a lie (the mass delusion of the Heaven's Gate cult?). But who would die for something that they knew to be a lie? And they absolutely would have known that it was a lie. And what of the case of the Apostle Paul? As a "good Jew," he actually spent some period of time persecuting the followers of Jesus--he thought them to be infidels and quite out of their minds. Until the Lord Himself appeared to him on the road to Damascus (Paul--then known as Saul--was actually on his way to Damascus with letters from the High Priest in Jerusalem, to detain Jewish followers of Jesus from the synagogues there "and bring them back in chains"). Clearly something quite extraordinary happened to cause him to turn 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

You are assuming that they would have known it to be a lie, completely ignoring the possibility of the power of suggestion...right after acknowledging it with Heaven's Gate. Any clear thinking individual would assume the same thing about Jim Jones' cult in the jungle of Guyana...we saw how that turned out, too.

There is a great deal in our universe that confounds us---but yet it can and does exist. To insist that the only things that can exist are limited to those we perceive with our five senses, is equivalent to a small child covering his/her eyes and insisting that he/she cannot be seen.

To argue against this would not only be futile, but foolish. For example, X-rays and sub-atomic particles cannot be picked up with any of the five sense, but they have been shown to exist. Therein lies the problem. Even if the story of Christ were entirely true (a dubious claim at best), it still does not prove the existence of God, or an afterlife. It proves only that a small group of people (at that time) believed everything that was spoken by a small group of people, at one time or another. It is very much identical to the story of Mohammed, though of course Christians will claim that he was merely a pretender to Christ...which I find pretty amusing considering that Muslims do not renounce Christ, and in fact the Qu'ran recognizes him as a prophet of God, just not the messiah, but that's a topic for another time.

Shadowknight137

When I die, I'll let everyone know.

ninerbuff

Just because people are now learning to take better care of the health that they have, doesn't mean that the genome is not continuing to deteriorate. You only need to look at the large increase in infertility among young men to know that something is amiss. If male sperm counts continue to decline at the present rate, within a couple of generations (40 years or so) very few men will be able to father children. Whether the cause is environmental or genetic has yet to be studied. If it is environmental the fix will be difficult, if it is genetic, it will be impossible.

What is proposed by Sanford is hypothesis at best. Some how this infertility isn't an issue in Asian countries.:laugh: In fact, they've limited how children you should have is a few.

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Gallowmere1984

Oh how entertaining it is to listen to people with zero faith tell others exactly what is and what isnt....it must be awesome being them!

Just in case this was a misunderstood jab at me in any way: it is pretty awesome being me, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my lack of faith. I think it's more the nearly perfect wife, good paying job, even increasing lifts, and just general happiness that I have to look forward to on a daily basis.

ninerbuff

Do you really think that a "plant geneticist" doesn't deal with the same fundamentals? The human genome shares 50% of its genes with the genome of a banana. Many scientists will study something outside of their narrow area of specialty. They often bring a great deal of fresh insight. For example, there is a cardiologist at the University of Colorado Medical Center, Richard J. Johnson, M.D. who has chosen to study Type II diabetes and renal disease. He has recently been given a grant by the National Institutes of Health to study an epidemic of renal failure among sugar cane workers in Central America.

Getting a grant (since the money needs to be spent or it won't be provided) doesn't ensure that information is going to be better than someone else who's an expert in that field. Lol, why would we consult experts if that were the case?

First, carbon dating will not refute anything of the sort--it has many flaws. The main one being that it is based on many assumptions that may or may not be true http://voices.yahoo.com/have-scientists-discovered-flaws-carbon-dating-7009058.html:

You're assuming through this article that it's not true. The article doesn't state it's not true. It's just questioning it based on a study done that MAY refute it. Nothing is conclusive here yet.

You go on strawman tangents a lot.

Back to topic. Have you ever met, seen or heard from anyone (supernatural being, soul, whatever you call it) after death? If not, then how are you sure that it exists?

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Erin_goBrahScience

ninerbuff

"...I'd have to see much more evidence PROVING his theory before believing in it..."

There is NO such thing in science. Any real scientist will tell you that.

You're right. Scientific theory is unprovable. My bad.

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Gallowmere1984

no, was meant as a general statement for this and couple other divisive faithbased threads that hit the forums today for no other reason than to see how quickly it would get people worked up.

Ahh, I see. Well, in all fairness, this one has been kicking around for quite a while now.

To me, given the way much of this has been handled, it's actually been a pretty good exercise in debate. Granted, some people have gotten butthurt, but they left rather quickly. Honestly, I've been rather enjoying the intellectual 'hamstring stretch'.

ninerbuff

You, who claim to have no faith, are going to define faith for me? Real, abiding faith, is NOT mental assent to a "doctrine of religion". As I have stated before, it is a supernatural event that happens by the will of the "Father of Lights." He convinces of truth by the Spirit of Truth. Since when has testimony ceased to be evidence? (Maybe you should try saying that in a court of law sometime and see what the judge says?"

Testimony can be disputed by fact. Why do you think people still get convicted when testimony is in there behalf? You hear ALL THE TIME "I know this person, there's NO WAY they could have done this", then there's DNA, crime evidence, eyewitnesses, camera proof that showed that person did it.

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ninerbuff

A death-bed testimony is considered to be very powerful, as a dying person is not presumed to lie--under the principle of "nemo moriturus praesumitur mentiri". All of the eye-witnesses went to their deaths bearing the testimony of the truth of Christ's resurrection. They could have easily escaped death by declaring it all a lie---they did not, gladly suffering death to the denial of what they knew to be the truth. What you said is quite irrelevant. We all know that some people lie.

Or they could have lied to save their family from grief and discrimination.

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