Knees barely past toes with squats - is it really that bad?

taso42

Your knees may go past your toes when you're doing a squat. Depends on your anatomy.

Edit, just saw that you posted a video.
You're gonna want to go deeper. The crease of your hips should get slightly below your knee. Get to the bottom and hold there for a few seconds. Your back angle will do roughly what it has to do in order to maintain balance.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Lifts#The_Squat

Elleinnz

Saw this discussion on Facebook a while ago ...... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=435006019888634&set=a.115785295144043.35684.112628222126417&type=1&theater

AmericanExpat

bump

danimalkeys

It's ok to have some forward lean, if you are doing it right this will naturally happen in order to keep the bar over your center of gravity. The key is to keep your head up and your chest out/shoulder blades pulled together, and lead with your head out of the bottom of the lift. Too many people will allow their hips to come up too fast and that's when you get into that good morning position. Drive the head back and up and your hips will follow. This will keep your back straight. Straight back doesn't mean straight up and down, it means not rounded over. The rounding is what can get you hurt. If you are having low back pain then you may have been rounding, or possibly, hit your low back in a way that it hadn't been hit before and its just normal soreness.

You are giving some great advice. Can you explain the leading with head out of bottom of lift. Not sure i understand it yet. Thanks

It's just like a deadlift, when you start the lift the 1st thing that moves is your head. Otherwise you have a tendency to let your hips rise up too fast and then create a bad angle of leverage which puts way too much strain on your lower back, vs allowing your glutes and hams, where all you power is, to do their job properly.

I guess it's kind of hard to explain without really seeing it, but it's another small mental note to make. I have almost a checklist a I setup for each rep/set. Get under the bar. Chest out. Shoulders pulled back. Deep breath. Everything tight. 3 step walkout. Foot placement. Break at hips to start the motion downward. Sit back into the squat. Head up with eyes fixed at a point slightly above eye level for the entire rep. Spread the floor with my feet. At the bottom drive the head back and up hard. Pop the hips forward as you come up. Lock out. Rack the bar. Done. Repeat.

dstromley1

Personally, I wouldn't take advice from a man that squats on the smith machine.

i use the smith machine quiitte a bit. my squat is over 500. soo id say it has a purpose.

and as far as the knee over toes thing. if your back is in flat and ur not leaning ridiculously far forwarrd dont worry about it. focus more on going as low as possible and the flexibility will come in time.

A 500lbs squat on a Smith machine doesn't even come close to equating what one actually squats with free weights. One doing that weight would be challenged to do just a free weight squat just 100lbs-150lbs less in weight.

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NO your right i meant raw BB squat i can box squat ridiculous amounts in the smith tho. i use the smith for front squats and box band squats. i dont understand why everyone hates smith machine. MY gym owner has worldrecords in powerlifting and he uses the smith every workout.

ninerbuff

Yes--the "knees can't go over the toes" direction is outdated and often misguided. It's more important that you have the weight centered over your mid foot and that the angle of the back is parallel to the angle of the tibia (shins).

THIS.

There is more studies showing that a little "knee going past the toes" action actually is safer and more effective than keeping the knee inline with the toes when squatting.

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Could you explain why it's safer and more effective? Just in case anyone feels like telling me otherwise, I'll have a little ammo to back me up.

In 2003 the Journal of Strength and Conditioning published a study in which volunteers were asked to squat two ways: allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes and not allowing them to do so. They found that not allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes reduced knee torque. That’s good, right? Wrong. Because this technique also increased hip torque by more than 1,000 percent! Those forces displaced from the knees by squatting unnaturally were simply transferred to the low back, a joint that is far more susceptible to injury in a squatting exercise than the knees.

Not everyone should aim to get their knees past their toes when squatting or lunging, however. It’s a matter of individual anatomy. People with shorter legs often squat and lunge quite naturally without excursion of the knees beyond the toes. Taller folks tend to naturally push the knees beyond the toes. You need to let your individual body move as it was designed to do.

For a variety of reasons, most people do squat or lunge with bad form. So it’s a good idea to learn correct technique from someone who knows what he’s talking about. If the person teaching you correct squat or lunge technique tells you not to let your knees past your toes, you now know that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

One other thing: Just watch your knees as you climb stairs. Your knee will invariably go past your toes as you do this.

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Thank you, this makes perfect sense

Incidentally, i have short legs, never had a problem with my knees going further forward than my toes, and also when walking up stairs, my knees don't go further forward than my toes whether I go up one stair at a time or two at a time, although going downstairs they do, but they're not bearing my weight in the same way when going downstairs (yes I just went to check after reading this lol).

Are "*ss to grass" squats bad for the knees? Someone elsewhere on this forum said they were (or that going to the point where the calf muscle makes contact with the hamstring was bad for the knees). I do atg squats all the time, with no knee pain.

Atg is something I do pretty often with no knee pain either (been doing it for years), but I DON'T use very heavy poundages. Not more than 185lbs max.
Incidentally though, as a kid, I used to sit in the atg position all the time so that may be a reason why it doesn't bother me.
Is it bad? I'm going to say it's probably going to depend on the individual and how they do it.

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ninerbuff

NO your right i meant raw BB squat i can box squat ridiculous amounts in the smith tho. i use the smith for front squats and box band squats. i dont understand why everyone hates smith machine. MY gym owner has worldrecords in powerlifting and he uses the smith every workout.

[/quote]No hate for the Smith machine here. There is a great many uses for it especially with people that I work with (rehab).

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sarahisme18

In 2003 the Journal of Strength and Conditioning published a study in which volunteers were asked to squat two ways: allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes and not allowing them to do so. They found that not allowing the knees to pass in front of the toes reduced knee torque. That’s good, right? Wrong. Because this technique also increased hip torque by more than 1,000 percent! Those forces displaced from the knees by squatting unnaturally were simply transferred to the low back, a joint that is far more susceptible to injury in a squatting exercise than the knees.

Not everyone should aim to get their knees past their toes when squatting or lunging, however. It’s a matter of individual anatomy. People with shorter legs often squat and lunge quite naturally without excursion of the knees beyond the toes. Taller folks tend to naturally push the knees beyond the toes. You need to let your individual body move as it was designed to do.

For a variety of reasons, most people do squat or lunge with bad form. So it’s a good idea to learn correct technique from someone who knows what he’s talking about. If the person teaching you correct squat or lunge technique tells you not to let your knees past your toes, you now know that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

One other thing: Just watch your knees as you climb stairs. Your knee will invariably go past your toes as you do this.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Thank you for this! I too had a trainer at the gym come up and try to tell me the same thing about the knees and toes (though he was yelling at me while I was squatting my work sets with my headphones in, so I just ignored him and kept going...). If he tries to talk to me about it again, I will mention this. Thanks!

paprad

The OP's posts made me smile - I had almost exactly the same experience - trainer kept giving me advice till I was rocking on heels, toes rising, and nearly lost both balance and confidence. Later, when I tried at home, husband/spotter said I was leaning forward too much and I kept gazing at the mirror all squiggly eyed to see if my knees were going over the toes, which they were.

But when I rechecked this list of tips by Mehdi - and his video on parallel squats, it confirmed that if I go low enough as he says, I have no choice but to let knees go over toes and back (while straight) leans forward.

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-squat-with-proper-technique-fix-common-problems/

Mehdi's knees are beyond his toes too, from what I can see - also in the video he pauses at a clip of ArnoldS and his knees look like they are over his toes too, and so is his back leaning forward.

Lots of great tips here, thanks

neandermagnon

Regards keeping your balance - I have this problem if I do squats with my feet too close together. For bodyweight squats I can *just about* balance in a squat position (a*s to grass) with my feet shoulder width apart, if I stretch my arms out in front of me, even then I'm only just balanced, and have never tried a barbell squat with my feet this close together, even if I hold my hands by my shoulders as if holding an imaginary barbell I fall backwards. So no point even attempting it with a barbell. However i if I keep my stance wide, a bit further than shoulder width apart (but not as wide as an actual wide stance squat), I can maintain my balance just fine and I'm currently doing 80lb+ for reps without any problems balancing. I'm sure body proportions have a lot to do with this, I'm 5'1" with short legs and a large frame, I actually have very good balance, I can do one leg deadlifts with no balance difficulties and I used to play ice hockey, and I don't have joint mobility problems either, just that I have short legs and a large frame and my centre of gravity is too far back to balance in a squat position with my feet in front of my body (as opposed to either side of it, as in a wider stance squat). I can't do pistol squats for the same reason.

That's my problem with bodyweight squats! Arms straight out ahead, I can just about hit parallel until the toes raise up, I start to rock back on my heels, then have to correct myself. What's interesting is when I do it with a barbell, I don't get that fall back feeling - then again, I may be leaning forward to much, but the back stays straight, not rounded.

Since I made this post, I found out that the problem with the centre of gravity being too far back/falling over backwards comes from having a relatively long femur/relatively short shin, as this shifts the centre of gravity back further than for someone with average body proportions, meaning that you can't keep your centre of gravity over the foot, and you fall backwards

it's corrected by taking a slightly wider stance, as this limits the amount the centre of gravity goes backwards, i.e. it's like having shorter femurs. Also, raising the heel can correct it as that imitates having a longer shin, i.e. the knee can go further forwards to enable the centre of gravity to stay over the foot.

Also I've found out that powerlifters take a fairly wide stance for squats with the toes turned outwards, which is fine even if you have relatively longer femurs, although most instructional videos/articles on squats say to take a shoulder width apart stance, without mentioning that for some people a stance slightly wider than shoulder width apart is better. Additionally, there is no one single correct form for lifts, there are various factors that are affected by body proportions. For example when deadlifting, the back angle is different depending on your body proportions. So some aspects of form have to be adjusted accordingly. These videos are of Mark Rippetoe explaining how deadlift form varies from person to person depending on body proportions, but in each case certain criteria should be met: part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vue17RjRhwM part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu3-64C7JEY (plus I'm stealing the phrase "somebody with goofy anthropometry" LOL)