Stop doing SQUATS!

Gwyn1969

You talk about doing the squat challenge - isn't that a ton of reps done completely unweighted? If so, two things:

1. That is not strength training. It falls on the other side of the strength<

---

> conditioning continuum. (PS before folks chime in and say they got stronger doing this, you are just experiencing a short lived phenomenon called the novice effect. An untrained individual can do anything for six weeks and get in better shape.)

2. Properly done barbell squats, to depth and adding a little weight each time, and done in the most effective strength training range (5s are great, but anywhere from 3-8 could work as well), have helped numerous people with bad knees, myself included.

For many people, not all but many, loads of light weight high rep movements can cause tendonitis and other repetitive stress injuries. It's possible this is what is up with you. If you think it is, and you want to squat, get Starting Strength - Basic Barbell Training, and teach yourself how to squat, using the proper equipment. You do not need to lose weight first. Your knees will probably start to feel better fast, once you are only doing three sets of five, instead of 250 unweighted squats per day, or whatever the squat challenge has you do. If you do this and your knees do not stop hurting, then your form is bad and you need a coach. The only people who should absolutely not squat (in terms of knee issues) are people who completely lack a meniscus.

Hope this helps.

ddeleonm09

You talk about doing the squat challenge - isn't that a ton of reps done completely unweighted? If so, two things:

1. That is not strength training. It falls on the other side of the strength<

---

> conditioning continuum. (PS before folks chime in and say they got stronger doing this, you are just experiencing a short lived phenomenon called the novice effect. An untrained individual can do anything for six weeks and get in better shape.)

2. Properly done barbell squats, to depth and adding a little weight each time, and done in the most effective strength training range (5s are great, but anywhere from 3-8 could work as well), have helped numerous people with bad knees, myself included.

For many people, not all but many, loads of light weight high rep movements can cause tendonitis and other repetitive stress injuries. It's possible this is what is up with you. If you think it is, and you want to squat, get Starting Strength - Basic Barbell Training, and teach yourself how to squat, using the proper equipment. You do not need to lose weight first. Your knees will probably start to feel better fast, once you are only doing three sets of five, instead of 250 unweighted squats per day, or whatever the squat challenge has you do. If you do this and your knees do not stop hurting, then your form is bad and you need a coach. The only people who should absolutely not squat (in terms of knee issues) are people who completely lack a meniscus.

Hope this helps.

Awesome info!

SanteMulberry

I take Chondroitin as well, but it's only been about a week. So I have a long way to go before I feel any effects lol. I've tried yoga, but I'm not a huge fan of it either.

Does anyone know if Zumba would be ok to do?

Zumba is a very HIGH impact workout ... so if you have bad knees you still need to wait for the healing to take place and then modify the workout to suit your needs.

We have Aqua Zumba at our pool. It is no impact because it is done at the deep end of the pool (wearing a foam belt). You might check at your pool.

Lt_Starbuck

looked on the whole thread, but didn't see anyone suggest that you warm up properly. i don't know if you do or not, but warming up properly helps move blood to your extremities and promotes your joints to lubricate properly.

jump rope, walk, dynamic stretching, some squats, and lunges are all great ways to warm up.

http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2012/01/09/warm-up/

Excellent point--warm-ups are good for preventing DOMS, too.

But if the OP is in actual pain right now, warm-ups aren't going to help. Only rest will.

warm ups in the future will prevent it from getting worse.

im in the same exact situation.

pain during the squats is what needs to be avoided. Pain now just needs to be allowed to run its course after doing it wrong.

vim_n_vigor

You can rest and heal for a short time, or continue pushing and end up resting a long term injury instead. Who checked your form?

Vailara

I don't have any advice to offer but have similar issues (pain on single leg bodyweight squats, didn't get pain when I did weighted two-leg squats), so I'm going to read through all the suggestions! I hope your knees improve soon.

_Lori_Lynn_

I don't have time to read all of the posts so I hope I am not repeating anyone but take fish oil (it also helps with weight loss) and take glutamine. Be sure you're drinking lots of water. Massage your knees (thumbs around the outsides and going from bottom up) and also the tops of them with palm (go from bottom up). You always want to work toward your heart. Knees many times get lactic acid build up, it is a crunchy feeling (like popping pop rocks) or others have said, "like popping bubble wrap". It can make them sore.

I would stop doing squats and do a different exercise to work those muscles. There is a weight machine which you can work the backside with, etc. I hope some PTs on here can tell you want to do to substitute squats for. That is if they can put down their bowls of ice cream and poptarts long enough to tell you, lol. ((kidding, kidding).

reenasamaan

I wish I had some advice for you! I'm seeing a doctor tomorrow about this (not specifically squats but exercising and having knee pain as well). If I learn anything new I'll share. Good luck!

Loftearmen

You can accomplish the same "toning" by sitting in a chair and lifting your foot off of the floor and extending your foot straight out in front of you. Use a stability ball for more of a core workout but same movement. Also lay flat on your back bring one knee to your chest with the other leg extended. Lift and lower the extended leg and also simulating a "bicycle" pedaling movement will work your quads as well...and no added pressure like in a squat. If you want a little more resistence, add an ankle weight.

This is probably the most blatantly untrue statement I have read on MFP.

No, it is not! This exercise was actually given to me by my PT. I also have crappy knees with moderate arthritis and torn meniscus, so squatting is totally out of the question.

Lol, okay lady

bumblebums

You can accomplish the same "toning" by sitting in a chair and lifting your foot off of the floor and extending your foot straight out in front of you. Use a stability ball for more of a core workout but same movement. Also lay flat on your back bring one knee to your chest with the other leg extended. Lift and lower the extended leg and also simulating a "bicycle" pedaling movement will work your quads as well...and no added pressure like in a squat. If you want a little more resistence, add an ankle weight.

This is probably the most blatantly untrue statement I have read on MFP.

No, it is not! This exercise was actually given to me by my PT. I also have crappy knees with moderate arthritis and torn meniscus, so squatting is totally out of the question.

Lol, okay lady

I had to have surgery for a torn meniscus, and it happened at the bottom of a squat. I was also prescribed an exercise to strengthen my quads along the lines described in the post you "lol" at. And yes, I am a "lady" as well. Believe it or not, this is one of the differences between men and women--women often sustain injuries to their cartilage and tendons that men do not have to worry about.

And to everyone in this thread, I would suggest to listen to what their physical therapists say and not pay attention to random strangers on the internet.

ArroganceInStep

I had to have surgery for a torn meniscus, and it happened at the bottom of a squat. I was also prescribed an exercise to strengthen my quads along the lines described in the post you "lol" at. And yes, I am a "lady" as well. Believe it or not, this is one of the differences between men and women--women often sustain injuries to their cartilage and tendons that men do not have to worry about.

lolwut? Last I checked our knees worked the same way, if there are significant differences in injury rates I'd wager it has more to do with strength levels and muscle mass than some female knee-breaker gene.

And to everyone in this thread, I would suggest to listen to what their physical therapists say and not pay attention to random strangers on the internet.

Whole-heartedly agree.

SanteMulberry

You can accomplish the same "toning" by sitting in a chair and lifting your foot off of the floor and extending your foot straight out in front of you. Use a stability ball for more of a core workout but same movement. Also lay flat on your back bring one knee to your chest with the other leg extended. Lift and lower the extended leg and also simulating a "bicycle" pedaling movement will work your quads as well...and no added pressure like in a squat. If you want a little more resistence, add an ankle weight.

This is probably the most blatantly untrue statement I have read on MFP.

No, it is not! This exercise was actually given to me by my PT. I also have crappy knees with moderate arthritis and torn meniscus, so squatting is totally out of the question.

Lol, okay lady

I had to have surgery for a torn meniscus, and it happened at the bottom of a squat. I was also prescribed an exercise to strengthen my quads along the lines described in the post you "lol" at. And yes, I am a "lady" as well. Believe it or not, this is one of the differences between men and women--women often sustain injuries to their cartilage and tendons that men do not have to worry about.

And to everyone in this thread, I would suggest to listen to what their physical therapists say and not pay attention to random strangers on the internet.

^^^THIS^^^ Women are apparently much more prone to knee trouble because their knees are inherently less stable than those of men. Female athletes have 4 to 10 times more ACL (anterior cruciate ligament) knee injuries than male athletes. It is thought to be because of the bio-mechanical disadvantage of the angle that womens' shorter femurs must enter the proportionally wider pelvis (wider to accommodate reproduction). Women who are taller, with a more "android" shape, appear to have more knee stability than many other women. When you add the greater flexibility of women's ligaments (likely a hormonal accommodation---also for the purpose of reproduction) it is a recipe for knee problems, if women try to do the same type of things that men do in the gym. Here is an article on "ACL injuries in women": http://www.hughston.com/hha/a_11_3_2.htm

bumblebums

I had to have surgery for a torn meniscus, and it happened at the bottom of a squat. I was also prescribed an exercise to strengthen my quads along the lines described in the post you "lol" at. And yes, I am a "lady" as well. Believe it or not, this is one of the differences between men and women--women often sustain injuries to their cartilage and tendons that men do not have to worry about.

lolwut? Last I checked our knees worked the same way, if there are significant differences in injury rates I'd wager it has more to do with strength levels and muscle mass than some female knee-breaker gene.

Where did you check? Our knees do not work the same way. Anyway, aroundthemulb did the research for me, see the post below yours. (Thanks!)

SanteMulberry

"...lolwut? Last I checked our knees worked the same way, if there are significant differences in injury rates I'd wager it has more to do with strength levels and muscle mass than some female knee-breaker gene..."




As I cited in my post, women athletes have 4 to 10 times the number of ACL injuries than male athletes. Women and men are NOT the same anatomically nor hormonally--we cannot assume that they are and blithely do the same athletic activities in the same way as men.

bumblebums

I am back with more links.

http://www.jaaos.org/content/21/1/41.abstract
http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/23/6/694.short

The second link is a meta review article.

Cr01502

no.

SoDamnHungry

If it's causing you pain and you're sure your form is right, stop it right now! Give yourself some time to heal. After your knees feel better, try it again. If it still causes you pain, I'd say just don't do squats.

danimalkeys

Knee Wraps

Knee wraps have long been a mainstay for competitive powerlifters, and for good reason. When properly used, wraps can dramatically improve knee safety during heavy squatting. More important, however, is the fact that wraps give you at least a 5-10 percent increase in how much you can lift. But there's a downside to using wraps also.

Wearing them while squatting under 80-85 percent or so is counterproductive to providing adaptive overload to various tissues comprising the knee. Simply, the wrap absorbs the stress instead of the tissues, so they never get stronger.

Guidelines for wearing knee wraps during squatting are as follows:

Keeping your knees warm (wrapped loosely) improves blood flow and tissue elasticity.
If the weight you're using is greater than 80-85 percent of your maximum,or
If you have knee problems that require wearing wraps.
If you STILL insist on using them, go ahead and do so, but with the following points in mind. When buying knee wraps, opt for the ones that 1) weigh the most (more fabric equals greater protection, and 2) that stretch out to at least 19-20 feet in length (more times around the knee equals greater protection).

Do NOT purchase wraps that are bulky, heavily elasticized and stretch out to under fifteen feet. Tightness from elasticity is NOT affording you any real support!

Here are the steps to go through when putting your wraps on:

Sit on a chair or bench. Begin with the wrap completely stretched and rolled up (this makes the process much easier than fighting to stretch the wrap as you go).
With your leg straight, start applying the wrap below the knees, working upward. Wrapping from "in" to "out," (counterclockwise for the left leg, clockwise for the right -- this helps avoid improper patellar tracking), anchor the wrap by applying 2 layers below the knees, then move upward, overlapping each previous layer by one-half the width of the wrap.

Apply the wrap tightly as you move past the knee, stopping somewhere on the lower third of the thigh (powerlifting rules allow 10 centimeters above the patella).

Most of the wrap is wound around the leg just above the knee joint in orderto "pin" the quadriceps tendon to the femur below -- better leverage). Tuck the end of the wrap under the previous layer to secure it. Repeat for the other leg.

An alternative more suitable for fitness and bodybuilding, perhaps, is to wrap tightly around the upper shin (where the patellar ligament attaches), then more loosely wound over the kneecap itself (this is important to avoid grinding the patella into the femoral condyle, creating a case of chondromalacia for yourself), then tightly wound over the lower quarter of the thigh.

The rationale for wrapping the knees prior to heavy squatting is that it reduced the pulling forces on the lower quadriceps and the quadriceps tendon at it's attachment to the patella. This translates to significantly reduced chances of avulsing (detaching) your quadriceps tendon or tearing your quads during heavy squatting. The chances of your patellar tendon avulsing from your tibia are a bit less, but nonetheless omnipresent.

The Whole article is hear.. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drsquat12.htm

the problem with this is wraps, when properly used, are not something you'll put on at the beginning of a squat workout and leave on for the duration. They cut off circulation, are painful, and generally are not something anyone but a competitive lifter should use or really needs. You put them on before a set, and remove them as soon as you are done. Using them for anything more than a set of 3 is a waste of time.

While this is a good article, it's way off base for the OP here, she's not lifting enough weight to bother with them. When I was competing I'd never use them with anything less than 405/455, and only then because they were warmup weights where you want to have your gear on to get used to it for the later heavy sets.

ArroganceInStep

Those links regarding gender based differences in injury rate are making me rethink my original stance on the subject. Thank you.

Crossfit_Mom_2_4

I had a severe meniscus tear in 2006. Had surgical repair, but never really got back the muscle that atrophied as a result of the injury. I was in an unloader brace for a long time and taking Gluch/Chond supps as directed by my doctor. After many years of frustration and a 155lb weight gain from lack of mobility, I quit. What? I stopped the supps after meeting with my internist because the supps over a prolonged period of time were creating a ulcer in my stomach (doesn't happen to everyone). He recommended the INCREDIBRACE Compression Athletic Knee Brace (www.braceability.com) - I just got it this week, and low and behold I can run/squat/walk PAIN FREE!! I swear by this brace and as I lose the weight and the sizes drop I will continue to get a new brace. It WORKS!