Paleo vs The China Study - What are your views?

MeeshyBW

I have been doing an awful lot of research at the moment into the Palaeolithic diet. It has been all over the internet with an abundance of Paleo food blogs popping up and it being touted as the ultimate diet.

However, I have also done my research into those against such a diet, based around the China Study that promotes a diet free from animal products based on significant scientific and medical research by some of the top minds in the nutrition field including T. Colin Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn. (Watch the documentary Forks over Knives)

I am now in a spot of confusion over which diet is best. Both contradict each other and Paleo is way more fashionable at the moment which might explain all of the internet noise about it?

I would like to know if there has been any real research done on the Paleo diet that proved such an meat based diet lowers cholesterol and has a medical impact on your well being? Not just flashy blogs and trendy books claiming this is the case but real medical proof that the foods they claim are bad for you, are in fact bad for you?

I am not anti Paleo, in fact I am very interested in this but I just cannot find any real proof that it has the same effect on the human body that the diet the China study promotes does.

What are your thoughts?

damiannikodem

To me these seem like fad diets, I believe that if you are one for those sorts of things google the "dr. rudy diet" and watch his instructional youtube video, but in all honesty its actually based on some damn solid science and will work pretty well.

MeeshyBW

I'm not really one for fad diets, I am just very interested in eating habits and nutrition. I am more interested in peoples opinions of these two lifestyles rather than go down the path of this thread talking about the Dr. Rudy Diet if thats okay.

Cr01502

Paleo is good. Is it mandatory? That's debatable.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19209185

"Even short-term consumption of a paleolithic type diet improves BP and glucose tolerance, decreases insulin secretion, increases insulin sensitivity and improves lipid profiles without weight loss in healthy sedentary humans."

Edit: Corrected a misspelling.

eric_sg61

Paleo man's only objective was to survive, not to lower cholesterol, not to have a six pack abs, not to be jacked and have low bodyfat, not to lose weight and look great in a loin-cloth. Only survival.

MeeshyBW

But my view is that ANY diet that removed refined grains from your diet and sugars is bound to have positive effects on your body and well being? Is eating such large amounts of meat based protein necessary? I am not entirely convinced.

I agree in eating grass fed meats, organic eggs etc... I am just not convinced that removing legumes and all grains is entirely healthy. Wheat, absolutely. I have not seen ANY research that tells me wheat is necessary. I have been wheat free for nearly a year and it has had a huge impact on my well being.

hdsqrl

I've wondered this as well - we see people in various parts of the world absolutely thriving on certain types of diets (that is, ways of eating, not diet-diets), and yet so many in other parts of the world just can't figure it out.

Related to that (stay with me here, I promise this will make sense), some people are naturally long and lean, and others are naturally muscle-y and stocky. It stands to reason that the people in one part of the world evolved to thrive off the foods available and their body types evolved to fit the demands they regularly faced.

So! Perhaps the answer isn't that one way of eating is "right" and good for everyone. Perhaps the key is looking back at your own ancestry, and trying to eat the way the majority of your own ancestors did. (Granted, for those of us who are complete mutts, this will be more difficult.)

For me, the largest portion of my ancestry is Scottish. I am stronger than I look, can carry heavy weights, and thrive on lots of meat and veggies, so paleo works for me. Long distance running doesn't seem natural for me (that is, my body says NO WAY, even though it will happily run shorter distances), but brute force types of activities are great. Consider a woman who grew up in the Highlands - what would she eat and what types of activities would she regularly do? Everything falls in line for what seems right for me.

What does your own inner ancestor suggest is right for you?

DavPul

The China study is complete and total bull.

Hope that helps.

MeeshyBW

The China study is complete and total bull.

Hope that helps.

Not really. Not even the least bit helpful or insightful.

These are precisely the sort of statements I was hoping to avoid asking this question.

myofibril

http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/minger_formal_response2.pdf

Pretty comprehensive discussion on the limitations of the China Study.

MeeshyBW

http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/minger_formal_response2.pdf

Pretty comprehensive discussion on the limitations of the China Study.

Does Denise Minger have any sort of credentials that are not just "Food blogger"? Does she have a medical or scientific/nutrition background? I'm genuinely interested in this. I want to know if her science is just pseudoscience or if she actually knows what she's talking about.

DavPul

The China study is complete and total bull.

Hope that helps.

Not really. Not even the least bit helpful or insightful.

These are precisely the sort of statements I was hoping to avoid asking this question.

Happy to help. You're welcome

DavPul

http://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/minger_formal_response2.pdf

Pretty comprehensive discussion on the limitations of the China Study.

Does Denise Minger have any sort of credentials that are not just "Food blogger"? Does she have a medical or scientific/nutrition background? I'm genuinely interested in this. I want to know if her science is just pseudoscience or if she actually knows what she's talking about.

aaaaaaaaaaand this is why i don't surf around on the net and give people links. you're perfectly happy to believe the pseudoscience of both the china study and the paleo eating, but when someone provides you with a link that shoots them down you suddenly become skeptical. not just you, but everyone does this. they pick and choose the links that support their point of view and disregard links that don't.

myofibril

Does Denise Minger have any sort of credentials that are not just "Food blogger"? Does she have a medical or scientific/nutrition background? I'm genuinely interested in this. I want to know if her science is just pseudoscience or if she actually knows what she's talking about.

I have no idea of her scientific background but it doesn't overly bother me if truth be told.

What interests me is the quality of the analysis, the critical methods used and the interpretation of the sources cited. She has done a pretty solid job in those departments.

darkguardian419

The china study has been shown to be wrong on MULTIPLE occasions...


Do what works for YOU.

myofibril

. not just you, but everyone does this. they pick and choose the links that support their point of view and disregard links that don't.

Oi, I have no cognitive biases that I know of*

(* ok, maybe one or two)

K_Serz

What are your thoughts?

The China Diet reminds me of Noni Juice. Im sure you will do your research. From my perspective: A study revealed that people indigenous to a geographical area consuming this juice from fruit that grew in this area, lived longer. After everyone jumped on that bandwagon and started buying the Noni Juice for $45 a bottle people are still dying, probably at a similar rate, except now they have less money when they die.

I am neither pro Paleo or China Diet, however I do love to eat meat. The problem that I have is, with Paleo or China diet are they studying people eating meat NOT injected with chemicals, steroids, and hormones that they are pumped with today? American beef is BANNED from Europe for this very reason. It could be possible that the China Diet shows significant differences because of the lack of hormones and chemicals in their diet. So here is an idea for a follow up China Diet study.

Let the Chinese continue to eat non animal products and then inject them full of the crap we pump our meat with. Then lets see how many tumors, lesions and heart explosions they start having per capita.

da_bears10089

But my view is that ANY diet that removed refined grains from your diet and sugars is bound to have positive effects on your body and well being? Is eating such large amounts of meat based protein necessary? I am not entirely convinced.

I agree in eating grass fed meats, organic eggs etc... I am just not convinced that removing legumes and all grains is entirely healthy. Wheat, absolutely. I have not seen ANY research that tells me wheat is necessary. I have been wheat free for nearly a year and it has had a huge impact on my well being.

Paleo doesn't necessarily mean that you eat pounds and pounds of bacon or steak everyday. It simply is eliminating types of foods that are agriculturally based. Grains, dairy, legumes.

MeeshyBW

I just wanted to know what Denise Minger credentials were is all. It seems she has no formal training in this friend so I am dubious about taking her research on board because of this. She wouldn't be the first blogger to jump on something like this to get a name for themselves in the blogosphere.

Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet and there is a lot of readily available information and data for people to collate to make it their 'own' research without having a scientific/medical background.

Personally I feel more comfortable with a rebuttal of the China Study being done on a sample size larger than ONE. :-/ I'm not sure how this woman is debunking the China study with this tiny amount of research with such a tiny sample size, it's almost not worth considering in my opinion.

I think this is going slightly off topic anyhow. I will of course read all the links thoroughly to get my own opinion.

I am very interested to see some more scientific studies done on the paleo diet if anyone knows of any.

yksdoris

But my view is that ANY diet that removed refined grains from your diet and sugars is bound to have positive effects on your body and well being? Is eating such large amounts of meat based protein necessary? I am not entirely convinced.

I agree in eating grass fed meats, organic eggs etc... I am just not convinced that removing legumes and all grains is entirely healthy. Wheat, absolutely. I have not seen ANY research that tells me wheat is necessary. I have been wheat free for nearly a year and it has had a huge impact on my well being.

too much protein can be bad for the kidneys. Also, it is important to note that the paleolithic diet was likely not as reliant on meat as the current blogs state. see here for a bird's eye overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic#Diet_and_nutrition Note: they DID eat legumes and grains. just not beans and wheat. Also, cannibalism was fairly common.

There's also a nutritional movement to eat only whatever grows naturally in the area. Sorry, but if I were to do that I'd be stuck with... meat, mainly. and some berries and nuts. Maybe seaweed. All of the other vegetables evolved more to the south and were brought along as people moved more North.

There's a really good socio-history book, but it also has a lot of information on nutrition and its influence on evolution because the author's a biologist: Guns, Germs and Steel. It's an interesting read regardless, but the impact on food and particularly the availability of carbs, and how that influenced the development of various civilizations is really quite eye-iopening.

WendyTerry420

All I know is peanuts are too delicious to avoid. (same with cheese, beer, bread, and all the other paleo no-no's) I don't need any scientific study to tell me that it's bad for me to deprive myself of nutritious foods that I enjoy. :smokin:

MeeshyBW

What are your thoughts?

The China Diet reminds me of Noni Juice. Im sure you will do your research. From my perspective: A study revealed that people indigenous to a geographical area consuming this juice from fruit that grew in this area, lived longer. After everyone jumped on that bandwagon and started buying the Noni Juice for $45 a bottle people are still dying, probably at a similar rate, except now they have less money when they die.

I am neither pro Paleo or China Diet, however I do love to eat meat. The problem that I have is, with Paleo or China diet are they studying people eating meat NOT injected with chemicals, steroids, and hormones that they are pumped with today? American beef is BANNED from Europe for this very reason. It could be possible that the China Diet shows significant differences because of the lack of hormones and chemicals in their diet. So here is an idea for a follow up China Diet study.

Let the Chinese continue to eat non animal products and then inject them full of the crap we pump our meat with. Then lets see how many tumors, lesions and heart explosions they start having per capita.

I find this a very interesting statement. I think you might be right. I strongly believe that the way US meat is raised is completely unhealthy. Thankfully a lot of the beef raised int he UK is naturally grass fed as standard.

I am not really for or against any particular diet but my view is we simply MUST stop eating meat and eggs that are intensively farmed and filled with hormones.

Organic eggs should be the only eggs we eat and grass fed/no grain/hormone free meats should be the only meat options we should consider as part of a healthy lifestyle.

I wonder if there is a study on this topic? Very interesting indeed.

tomg33

The Paleo Diet "works" and I like how it pushes for unprocessed foods, however these points don't change the fact that it principally relies on faulty logic. It's classic Naturalistic Fallacy to assume because something is "natural" it is good. As mentioned in this thread, palaeolithic man's goal was to survive, not to achieve a high level of muscularity, low level of body fat, and optimal health for 80+ years. Furthermore to claim they were healthier because they didn't seem to die of "modern" diseases like cardiovascular disease and T2 diabetes is sort of ridiculous considering most of them didn't live long enough to see the age where these diseases now tend to arise.

myofibril

I just wanted to know what Denise Minger credentials were is all. It seems she has no formal training in this friend so I am dubious about taking her research on board because of this. She wouldn't be the first blogger to jump on something like this to get a name for themselves in the blogosphere.

Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet and there is a lot of readily available information and data for people to collate to make it their 'own' research without having a scientific/medical background.

Oh certainly, I agree with you that it is important to assess the quality of the information and that the conclusions drawn. Bloggers on the internet don't quite go through the same process as peer reviewed research

However, I will not allow the power to make my own decisions and assess things for myself based on my own critical reasoning to simply be given to someone else merely because they have a degree or PhD etc.

Hope you enjoy the link. Does it debunk the China Study? Of course not. It simply opens up the area for further consideration and discussion.

MeeshyBW

The Paleo Diet "works" and I like how it pushes for unprocessed foods, however these points don't change the fact that it principally relies on faulty logic. It's classic Naturalistic Fallacy to assume because something is "natural" it is good. As mentioned in this thread, palaeolithic man's goal was to survive, not to achieve a high level of muscularity, low level of body fat, and optimal health for 80+ years. Furthermore to claim they were healthier because they didn't seem to die of "modern" diseases like cardiovascular disease and T2 diabetes is sort of ridiculous considering most of them didn't live long enough to see the age where these diseases now tend to arise.

^^^ THIS!

I agree with this statement. Surely the best diet is the one when we remove heavily processed foods, sugars, hormone filled animal products from our diets and eat everything in moderation?

It just doesn't have the same marketability though does it? Not sensationalist enough and certainly not something anyone could get rich of preaching about!

Hmmmmmm.

bananapancakebella

But my view is that ANY diet that removed refined grains from your diet and sugars is bound to have positive effects on your body and well being? Is eating such large amounts of meat based protein necessary? I am not entirely convinced.

I agree in eating grass fed meats, organic eggs etc... I am just not convinced that removing legumes and all grains is entirely healthy. Wheat, absolutely.

Is that much meat necessary? I don't know. But legumes and grains certainly are not necessary. The inuits come to mind as a culture that lived almost entirely off of animal flesh.

evileen99

I read an article the other day by (I think, I really can't recall) an evolutionary biologist talking about the Paleo diet. This person said that we don't need to eat like Paleo man because we're NOT Paleo man. For example, we evolved the ability to digest the lactose in cows' milk ~10,000 years ago, so now it IS a natural part of our diet. And the ability to digest lactose probably led to increased survival of populations that could now incorporate a new, high calorie food source into their diets.

Also, an article published in Lancet showed that atherosclerosis was common in mummies of several cultures, sort of negating the idea that it's a disease caused by our crappy modern diets.

PaleoPath4Lyfe

But my view is that ANY diet that removed refined grains from your diet and sugars is bound to have positive effects on your body and well being? Is eating such large amounts of meat based protein necessary? I am not entirely convinced.

I agree in eating grass fed meats, organic eggs etc... I am just not convinced that removing legumes and all grains is entirely healthy. Wheat, absolutely. I have not seen ANY research that tells me wheat is necessary. I have been wheat free for nearly a year and it has had a huge impact on my well being.

Well, myself included.............most of us Paleo folks don't eat as much meat as you think. We focus more on high quality fat intake (animal sources, coconut oil, high quality olive oil) and lots of vegetables, minimal to moderate amounts of fruit and then protein in quantities necessary for retaining or building muscle (depends on your goal).

PaleoPath4Lyfe

I read an article the other day by (I think, I really can't recall) an evolutionary biologist talking about the Paleo diet. This person said that we don't need to eat like Paleo man because we're NOT Paleo man. For example, we evolved the ability to digest the lactose in cows' milk ~10,000 years ago, so now it IS a natural part of our diet. And the ability to digest lactose probably led to increased survival of populations that could now incorporate a new, high calorie food source into their diets.

Also, an article published in Lancet showed that atherosclerosis was common in mummies of several cultures, sort of negating the idea that it's a disease caused by our crappy modern diets.

Atherosclerosis was found in mummies due to the high grain intake they consumed.

evileen99

I read an article the other day by (I think, I really can't recall) an evolutionary biologist talking about the Paleo diet. This person said that we don't need to eat like Paleo man because we're NOT Paleo man. For example, we evolved the ability to digest the lactose in cows' milk ~10,000 years ago, so now it IS a natural part of our diet. And the ability to digest lactose probably led to increased survival of populations that could now incorporate a new, high calorie food source into their diets.

Also, an article published in Lancet showed that atherosclerosis was common in mummies of several cultures, sort of negating the idea that it's a disease caused by our crappy modern diets.

Atherosclerosis was found in mummies due to the high grain intake they consumed.

Source? Lancet didn't mention that as the cause.

Lecterman

Does it matter really? With anything, people are going to be able to put pros and cons on just about any way of eating. And people will come up with some way to 'debunk' anything different than what they advocate.

Like some other have said, you've got to do what works for you.

I get a kick out of people who try to say their way is the best for everyone.

Vegans do it. Paleos do it. Eat right for you type people do it. Zone diet people do it.

You've got to do what's right for YOU.

Personally, I have been a vegetarian for 12 years (pretty much all vegan) and during that time I have raced bicycles competitively, done Crossfit and Strong Lifts, and currently train MMA and Jiu Jitsu. I train, compete, and recover just as well as my friends who choose to eat differently.

What I chose works for me.