Ketogenic Diet - How many carbs do you eat?

snarlingcoyote

Extremely low carb diets may be a temporary help for people who have medical issues but for the vast majority of people no carb, low carb diets will have side effects in the long run and is completely unnecessary to weight loss.

Our bodies need carbs. They increase serotonin levels in our brains and give us energy. There are studies now showing how people who eat extremely low carbs have more depression issues and also memory problems. I would never say eat a giant bowl of pasta every night and eat bags of chips for breakfast but in the long run most people eating this way will fall back on 'everything in moderation and exercise' because that is what is sustainable and what works.

I've never actually seen any studies to indicate that low-carb diets have long-term side effects. I have seen critics use "we don't know what the long-term side effects are" as an argument against them. But I'll find out what the long-term affects are. I intend to continue with 50 g/day until I reach my goal and then I'll increase to 100-150 g/day or at whatever level I find comfortable for maintenance - for the rest of my life. I'll let you know if I experience any side effects.

Our bodies don't need carbs. There are many things that increase serotonin levels - like sunlight - and give us energy - like fat.

Please site your sources for those studies about low-carbers having more depression issues. Because my depression decreased after I started eating low-carb. I did have some memory problems for a few days. This is part of the transition. That's the problem with many of the studies that decry low-carb diets - they focus on the first few weeks when there's a lot of change happening. Since getting over that hump, my memory, energy, and focus have gotten better.

I've tried "everything in moderation and exercise". It wasn't sustainable, and it didn't work. When I first read about low-carb diets I compared the claims to my previous low-calorie diet attempts. What stood out to me is that on days when I followed my calorie limit, I considerably exceeded my fat limit. And days when I ate close to carb limit, I significantly exceeded my calorie limit.

Please cite your sources the body doesn't need carbs and that blood glucose levels of 0 would be perfectly fine. Unless glucose suddenly is not a carbohydrate.

There are however plenty of studies showing negative impact on cognition and mood for low carb diets, a quick search will turn up a bunch

I didn't say blood glucose of 0 is fine. I said we don't need carbs to increase serotonin and provide energy, which was in response to the assertion that we do need carbs to increase serotonin and provide energy. Context matters.

I've addressed the "plenty of studies showing negative impact on cognition and mood for low carb diets" comment as well. 1) I said I didn't experience it, which is anecdotal evidence that it doesn't effect everybody; and 2) I said many of those studies were done in the first few weeks during a transition, which would be a severe flaw in the study. Finding flaws in the studies is part of the discussion - a discussion technique I know you are well aware of.

The whole purpose of my response, is to share my experience, which contradicts many of the claims that MFP's armchair nutritionists like to lecture low-carbers about. In fact, there are lots of people who can personally contradict those dire warnings about low-carb diets. You just don't want to listen to them.

"Our bodies don't need carbs. " Indeed

Too bad the plural of anecdote is not data nor evidence

As for short term, here you go

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108558

Thanks for wasting my time! I just went to read that article.

I glanced through the entire article. . .fbut the abstract conclusion sums it up:

"Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing."

It didn't prove anything like what you claimed it did.

heathgmorris

Thanks for wasting my time! I just went to read that article.

I glanced through the entire article. . .fbut the abstract conclusion sums it up:

"Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing."

It didn't prove anything like what you claimed it did.

I think he was banking on nobody reading it.

From the study:

Values for the cognitive functioning tests are reported in the Table. At baseline, there was no significant difference between groups for working memory or speed of processing. Overall, the mixed-model analysis showed significant improvements in working memory over time (P < .001 for time effect) as a result of the long-term maintenance of improvements that occurred during the initial 8 weeks of the study; no differential effect of diet treatment was observed (P = .88 for time × diet interaction). For speed of processing, although there was a significant main effect of time (P = .011) that arose because of an initial reduction in task performance time after 8 weeks, rebound was evident after 12 months in both groups, and across the entire study period, there was no statistically significant difference between groups (P = .49 for time × diet interaction) (Table). The completer's analysis using ANCOVA gave similar results for these outcomes. At week 52, there was a significant inverse correlation between the change in working memory and the change in fasting plasma insulin levels (r = 0.34; P = .007).

snarlingcoyote

I eat ketogenically to control a neurological condition. Before I started eating this way, because it seemed unhealthy, I did my research by reviewing juried nutritional research journals for anyting about "low-carb" or "ketogenic" for about a week and printing off the results, then comparing findings. I found that there seemed to be some benefits and some drawbacks to eating ketogenically, but that they were about the same as other forms of specific eating, on the balance of it. There were no conclusive long-term studies about the effects eating ketogenically, but the short-term studies showed no ill-effects.

I then researched for the uses of ketogenic eating and found that while there have been no studies done on people eating this way to control my neurological condition, there have been studies on other similar conditions that show improvement and the consensus is that more research needs to be done, because this diet may work well for any number of neurological conditions where there seems to be a malfunction of neurological pathways. My own neurologist, when I told him of my scheme got a very interested look and said "well it makes sense. Ketosis works for epilepsy, and the drugs I can give you are all primarily prescribed for epilepsy."

I've learned lots of tricks to get my body into ketosis after, ahem, not eating well. (Fasting will put me into ketosis within a day, no matter how much wedding cake I ate the night before.) And I've learned the drawbacks to not eating properly. (I pee black and rusty colored blood after I take ibuprofen - I was taking so many to get relief when I didn't eat properly that now I seem to have damaged my kidneys.)

This isn't a diet fad or a short-term thing for me. This isn't how I lose weight. This is how I can manage to live normally without taking drugs like Tegretol or having surgery. I monitor the journals and the articles, but have yet to find anything that says this way of eating is truly better or worse than any other in toto.

Oh, my carbs - I try to stay under 20 or 25.

pinkupooh

bumping for all the good info lot of you have put in here.

Acg67

Thanks for wasting my time! I just went to read that article.

I glanced through the entire article. . .fbut the abstract conclusion sums it up:

"Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing."

It didn't prove anything like what you claimed it did.

I think he was banking on nobody reading it.

From the study:

Values for the cognitive functioning tests are reported in the Table. At baseline, there was no significant difference between groups for working memory or speed of processing. Overall, the mixed-model analysis showed significant improvements in working memory over time (P < .001 for time effect) as a result of the long-term maintenance of improvements that occurred during the initial 8 weeks of the study; no differential effect of diet treatment was observed (P = .88 for time × diet interaction). For speed of processing, although there was a significant main effect of time (P = .011) that arose because of an initial reduction in task performance time after 8 weeks, rebound was evident after 12 months in both groups, and across the entire study period, there was no statistically significant difference between groups (P = .49 for time × diet interaction) (Table). The completer's analysis using ANCOVA gave similar results for these outcomes. At week 52, there was a significant inverse correlation between the change in working memory and the change in fasting plasma insulin levels (r = 0.34; P = .007).

You are correct, that's what I was banking on. The poster I responded to, said there were no longer term studies on the subject, in which I provided one

As previously reported,13 both groups had an initial reduction in scores on the BDI, SAI, and POMS (including the TMDS and the 6 subscales: tension-anxiety, depression-dejection, anger-hostility, vigor-activity, fatigue-inertia, and confusion-bewilderment) that was of similar magnitude by week 8. However, over the longer term, the overall course of change on the SAI, TMDS, and anger-hostility, confusion-bewilderment, and depression-dejection subscales of the POMS differed between the 2 treatment groups (P < .05 for time × diet interaction) because the average scores for these parameters decreased initially in both diet groups and then tended to remain low in the LF group but rebounded toward baseline levels over time in the LC group (Figure 2). Post hoc analysis showed that at week 52 the scores on the POMS subscales of anger-hostility (P = .006), confusion-bewilderment (P = .02), and depression-dejection (P = .05) and the TMDS score (P = .001) were significantly lower in the LF group than in the LC group

snarlingcoyote

Thanks for wasting my time! I just went to read that article.

I glanced through the entire article. . .fbut the abstract conclusion sums it up:

"Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing."

It didn't prove anything like what you claimed it did.

I think he was banking on nobody reading it.

From the study:

Values for the cognitive functioning tests are reported in the Table. At baseline, there was no significant difference between groups for working memory or speed of processing. Overall, the mixed-model analysis showed significant improvements in working memory over time (P < .001 for time effect) as a result of the long-term maintenance of improvements that occurred during the initial 8 weeks of the study; no differential effect of diet treatment was observed (P = .88 for time × diet interaction). For speed of processing, although there was a significant main effect of time (P = .011) that arose because of an initial reduction in task performance time after 8 weeks, rebound was evident after 12 months in both groups, and across the entire study period, there was no statistically significant difference between groups (P = .49 for time × diet interaction) (Table). The completer's analysis using ANCOVA gave similar results for these outcomes. At week 52, there was a significant inverse correlation between the change in working memory and the change in fasting plasma insulin levels (r = 0.34; P = .007).

You are correct, that's what I was banking on. The poster I responded to, said there were no longer term studies on the subject, in which I provided one

As previously reported,13 both groups had an initial reduction in scores on the BDI, SAI, and POMS (including the TMDS and the 6 subscales: tension-anxiety, depression-dejection, anger-hostility, vigor-activity, fatigue-inertia, and confusion-bewilderment) that was of similar magnitude by week 8. However, over the longer term, the overall course of change on the SAI, TMDS, and anger-hostility, confusion-bewilderment, and depression-dejection subscales of the POMS differed between the 2 treatment groups (P < .05 for time × diet interaction) because the average scores for these parameters decreased initially in both diet groups and then tended to remain low in the LF group but rebounded toward baseline levels over time in the LC group (Figure 2). Post hoc analysis showed that at week 52 the scores on the POMS subscales of anger-hostility (P = .006), confusion-bewilderment (P = .02), and depression-dejection (P = .05) and the TMDS score (P = .001) were significantly lower in the LF group than in the LC group

Reading. It's Fundamental.

Your quote shows that negative moods initially reduced for both groups. Longer term, those scores remained low for the low-fat group but rebounded to the baseline (original score) for the low-carb group. That's in the abstract. First sentence.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

jodyblanchard

I just wish people could get the facts straight on what Ketogenic means. Clearly, hearsay is not always the truth. It does not mean Ketoacidosis, nor muscle loss.

Amen, Sista

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

judychicken

Bump for reading later!

Marsha_75

I'm stumped on what to eat, in order to keep carbs 30 or below. Can you give some examples of your breakfast, lunch, supper please? Thanks.

albertabeefy

I'm stumped on what to eat, in order to keep carbs 30 or below. Can you give some examples of your breakfast, lunch, supper please? Thanks.

Hi Marsha, my diary is open. I don't keep carbs under 30g simply because I've already been keto for 3.5 years and I'm a big-eater / exerciser. But I'm typically around 45g unless it's been a HUGE exercise day.

jrose1982

I'm stumped on what to eat, in order to keep carbs 30 or below. Can you give some examples of your breakfast, lunch, supper please? Thanks.

Here are the rules that got me started (from Why We Get Fat, by Gary Taubes). That was on 20 grams a day, but you can adapt it to 30.:

Foods to eat every day:
- Salad greens: at least 2 cups a day. Includes arugula, bok choy, cabbage, chard, chives, endive, greens, kale, lettuce, parsley, spinach, radicchio, radishes, scallions, and watercress. (If it is a leaf, you may eat it).
- Vegetables: at least 1 cup daily (measured uncooked). Includes artichokes, asparagus, broccoli, brussels sprouts, cauliflower, celery, cucumber, eggplant, green beans, jicama, leeks, mushrooms, okra, onions, peppers, pumpkin, shallots, snow peas, sprouts, sugar snap peas, summer squash, tomatoes, rhubarb, wax beans, zucchini
- Bouillon or clear broth (consomme) is recommended unless you are on a sodium-restricted diet for hypertension or heart failure. This is for sodium replenishment.

Other foods to eat. Use these to feel full:
Meat: beef, pork, ham, bacon, lamb, veal, other. For processed meats make sure the label says 1 gram per serving or less.
Poultry: chicken, turkey, duck, or other fowl
Fish and shellfish: Any fish, including tuna, salmon, catfish, bass, trout, shrimp, scallops, crab, and lobster
Eggs: Whole eggs are permitted without restriction.

These foods allowed in limited quantities:
Cheese: up to 4 ounces a day. Hard, aged cheeses like swiss, cheddar, brie, mozzarella, cream cheese. Make sure the carb count on the label is less than 1 g per serving.
Cream: up to 4 tablespoonfuls a day. Includes heavy, light, or sour cream (not half and half)
Mayonnaise: up to 4 tablespoons per day. find a low-carb brand like Hellmann's or Duke's (it doesn't specify how low, probably 2 g per serving or less)
Olives: up to 6 a day
Avocado: up to 1/2 a fruit per day
Lemon/lime juice: up to 4 teaspoons a day
soy sauce: up to 4 tablespoons a day. Find a low-carb brand like Kikkoman (again, it doesn't specify how low it should be)
Pickles, Dill or Sugar-Free: up to 2 servings a day.


Don't buy lean meats. Eat the fat and skin that comes with it. Cook your vegetables in olive oil, coconut oil, butter, or bacon grease. I like to cook my meat and then cook the veggies in the fat that remains at the bottom of the pan. You've got three goals here: eat enough protein, eat your vegetables, and eat to satiety (that's why you need the fat).

At 30 g/day, you probably can't eat any fruit.

yahvinah

Ok lots of misinformation flying around...

Ketosis is NOT ketoacidosis - if you were in ketoacidosis you would slip into a coma and die... A medical emergency for Type I diabetics.

Muscle will be burned for a short period, then fat preferentially. Your body will not NUKE your muscles from being in ketosis.
Anecdotal evidence: I have my body composition monitored by my personal trainer, with calipers, and I lost far less muscle mass with my weight loss on 25g of carbs per day, than unlimited carbs on strict low calories.

I was a CALORIE addict. I know the caloric amount to everything I eat in my normal life by heart, but my weight loss stagnated for several months, despite refeeds, cycling, very low cals 900, mod cals 1500, high dieting cals 1800. I could not shift 1lb until I got into ketosis and dropped a massive 20lbs in 3 weeks. After a 3 month plateau...

Someone asked why would you run a house on a back up generator, when you'd ideally use the mains power... Because when you are obese you have 10,000 generators in your backyard waiting to be used up...

Your body is exquisitely complex, it adjusts, you'll live.

I'm a ketosis believer now.

Yahvinah82

Haha responded from my old profile!

ladymiseryali

I'm stumped on what to eat, in order to keep carbs 30 or below. Can you give some examples of your breakfast, lunch, supper please? Thanks.

You can check my diary! I eat a lot of homemade things I make in bulk. I'll occasionally have something from a fast food joint, but I order the lowest carb thing I can find, which is usually salads, although if you eat at tacobell, you can have a hard shelled taco and a side of black beans for under 20 net carbs.

GinaLivinLaKetoLoco

Read the book, Keto-adapted By Maria Emmerich. I think you'll have a better understanding of just how a healthy a Ketogenic diet works and the healing it causes in your body. Fruit is good when we were hunter gathers and needed those carbs to fatten up for winter. Think of a bear and berries, they eat fruit to fatten up for winter. Fruit is very high on the glycemic index and our bodies don't differentiate between the sugars in any form, whether it is from fruit or straight table sugar to bread, it is all sugar to the body and raises your insulin causing inflammation.Inflammation is what causes disease .So anything with a moderate to high glycemic index is still sugar to your body. If your going to eat fruit have them in very limit quantities and try and stick with berries since they are the lowest of all fruit on the glycemic index... a 5% carbs 15% protein, (because to much protein also will turn to carbs in your body) and 80% fat is what anyone on a well formulated Keto adapted diet should be having.. Also check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC1vMBRFiwEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC1vMBRFiwE

cheyenneeeeeee

Your total net carbs are carbs minus fiber. so DO NOT avoid fruits. if you calculate net carbs from fruit it's like nothing!

cheyenneeeeeee

Your total net carbs are carbs minus fiber. so DO NOT avoid fruits. if you calculate net carbs from fruit it's like nothing!

albertabeefy

Your total net carbs are carbs minus fiber. so DO NOT avoid fruits. if you calculate net carbs from fruit it's like nothing!

No offense, but this information is incredibly WRONG.

Royal Gala Apple, medium: 22g carbohydrate, 3g fiber
Pear, medium: 26g carbohydrate, 5g fiber
Banana, Medium: 27g carbohydrate, 3g fiber
Watermelon, 2 cups: 23g carbohydrate, 1g fiber
Orange, navel: 21g carbohydrate, 4g fiber
Grapes, 1 cup: 16g carbohydrate, 1g fiber
Cherries, 1 cup w/o Pits: 19g carbohydrate, 2g fiber

If you're going to eat any fruit, make it limited amounts of some berries:

Raspberries, raw, 1/2C: 7g carbohydrate, 4g fiber
Blackberries, raw, 1/2C: 7g carbohydrate, 4g fiber
Strawberries, raw, 4 medium: 4g carbohydrate, 1g fiber

Watch blueberries - they're much higher in carbohydrate/lower in fiber than the above. FYI all the above berries are 3g net carbohydrate...

mellystubbs

Today is day one of eating Keto for me. I am eating 70% from fat and about 45g of carbs. Is that still too much? I am vegetarian so its a bit hard for me to not eat veggies. Even a salad with no tomatoes seems to be about 10g of carbs. The a whole avocado is 14g and 1/4c raw macadamia nuts is 5g and I made coconut curry which was about 12g.

Also I'm curious I any of you eat cheese? Thank you

mellystubbs

Wow! 20 lbs in three weeks, thats amazing! Today is my first day of eating for Keto. I am curious if you eat cheese? Any tips on eating for ketosis as a vegetarian?

Any tips/advice is greatly appreciated!

nicsflyingcircus

OP... under 100 keeps you in ketosis... most start really low and do some pump workouts to burn out all the glycogen and get into ketosis dfast.. youll feel like crap til your body adjusts.... many do a TKD (targetted ketogenic diet) when they eat more carbs surrounding workouts.... You can do this and perform better in the gym while staying in keto... also, once youve been in keto for over a month people often jump out of keto (refeed) for a day or so just to let their body even out and improve training capacity... do your research

Keto isnt crazy but you should be doing some supplementation since you cant really eat much fruit.... I wouldnt make it a lifestyle, but, its fine for quite a while.... Some people do really well switching their energy source to fat... others never adjust

its the right answer for plenty of people.. especially overweight people who just dont have the capacity to eat carbs in moderation... (too big of a psychological bond)


im talking about eating the same amount of calories as woudl be suggested by any diet.... not some stupid fad diet that says eat whatever the F you want as long as its not carbs.. thats just stupid..

Wait... less than 100 net carbs puts you in keto?

I am averaging, in the past two weeks, about 76 net carbs per day. Surely that's not low enough for ketogenesis?

JusticejamesbMBA

I know that I try to stay <80 carbs a day. I eat salt and olive oil on everything, drink tons of water, and workout 5 - 6 days a week. I eat this way because I have pretty advanced MS. My neurologist has told me about the Keto diet and honestly I feel wonderful! The first couple of weeks was hard, but I was 310 at graduation in May. I'm now 270 Aug. 15th; so basically 3 months. I would recommend eating low carb to everyone!

Patttience

Just in case the OP still might benefit from this information - because i can't read 7pages of notes on this question to find out,

check out the nutrition calculator on this site PHLAUNT.COM I've only capitalised for ease of reading. She has lots of other good info too. the calculator over there will tell you calories, how much fat, how much protein and how much you will lose. USE IT.

you don't need to go as low as 20 carbs. I was doing 40 carbs and i felt that was too low for me. Start high is my advice because then you get the ketogenic benefit of low carb (meaning your brain can also burn fat after your body stars producing enough ketones) and the reduced appetite from eat low carb while you can still eat a wide variety of yummy foods. I think the more foods you are able to eat the easier the diet is to stick with longer term. As a general rule its about 90 net carbs that you need to still be in ketosis. But this will vary from person to person. Its going to be lower for someone with insulin resistance and other metabolic disorders. If you are in good health it will probably be closer to 90.

As for exercise and low carb i've been told to read the book a book by Phinney and Volek about performance and low carb. Its not the art and science one, its their other book with the word performance in the title.

From what i read in your first post you don't really know enough about low carb. You need to read more - probably a book about how to do it. Ruhl from the site above has one that is supposed to be good. I've read atkins and the art and science.

white_space

I started with a cyclic ketogenic diet, and now moving into a phase of pure keto without any carb refeeds. its gone well so far, probably been the best diet I have been on. I tend to keep carbs under 30 grams and quite often come in at around 20.
this site was a great tool for calculating the nutrition I need;
http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/