The Smarter Science of Slim
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"...I'd be happy to elaborate. Most have not gotten morbidly obese by overindulging in all foods..."
Actually, for the last 25 years, I have NOT been "overindulging in all foods" if that was meant as a personal insult to me.
"...For some, they will need to repair the damage they did through years of willful ignorance and/or neglect of basic health concepts
"...You have been working at improving the damage you did for 62 years by taking drastic measures over the last 3 years..."
Well if this is not the case, why would a 56 pound weight loss since you've been on MFP be necessary. It's pretty obvious that you've had some challenges with the energy balance equation in the past, no? And don't I remember something in your backstory about overindulgence in sugary carbs? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?0 -
When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
The research is clear that many individuals simply cannot afford empty calories. Women have much more efficient metabolisms than do men. Recent research (it was done at Harvard Med I believe) has shown that most women must cut 3,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat but most men must only cut 2,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat. The research has also shown that MANY obese women do NOT eat excessively.
Publish that research or don't quote it. That looks like a bunch of bovine fecal matter to me. Way to make things up.. lol0 -
New to MFP. never have seen this type of exchange.0
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Hey, hey, hey! That sounds like logic and making sense. We'll have none of that around here mister!! Pizza = bad. Simple......now that you mention it, it's been more that a week since I had me some pizza. Got to do something about that.When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
I have NEVER eaten more than 3,000 calories in any day for the vast majority of my life. For the last 20 years or so, I have probably only exceeded 2,500 calories on rare occasions. You simply do not understand the daily struggles of many people. Do the math. If you exceed your required calories by only 100 calories a day for ten years, at the end of that ten years, you will have gained 100 pounds. You don't know what you think you do.0 -
bump0
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When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
The research is clear that many individuals simply cannot afford empty calories. Women have much more efficient metabolisms than do men. Recent research (it was done at Harvard Med I believe) has shown that most women must cut 3,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat but most men must only cut 2,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat. The research has also shown that MANY obese women do NOT eat excessively.
Publish that research or don't quote it. That looks like a bunch of bovine fecal matter to me. Way to make things up.. lol
It was actually the subject of a thread here last week. Go look it up if you care to--I do not. I'm tired and am going to bed.0 -
When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
The research is clear that many individuals simply cannot afford empty calories. Women have much more efficient metabolisms than do men. Recent research (it was done at Harvard Med I believe) has shown that most women must cut 3,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat but most men must only cut 2,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat. The research has also shown that MANY obese women do NOT eat excessively.
how did they get obese then, over training?
I was unaware that females were outside of the laws of mathematics. It is accepted fact that there is 3500 calories in one pound of fat..unless I am missing something...therefore if a male or female cuts 500 cals a day/3500 cals a week they should each lose 1 pound per week....0 -
Hey, hey, hey! That sounds like logic and making sense. We'll have none of that around here mister!! Pizza = bad. Simple......now that you mention it, it's been more that a week since I had me some pizza. Got to do something about that.When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
I have NEVER eaten more than 3,000 calories in any day for the vast majority of my life. For the last 20 years or so, I have probably only exceeded 2,500 calories on rare occasions. You simply do not understand the daily struggles of many people. Do the math. If you exceed your required calories by only 100 calories a day for ten years, at the end of that ten years, you will have gained 100 pounds. You don't know what you think you do.
Seems simple to me: Don't average 100 calories per day over maintenance for 10 years.
Did I miss something??
Btw, I am a male 5'9'' and just under 200 lbs. 2500 is just about my maintenance number. I would think that would gain weight for you? Big surprise.:huh:
edited for spelling0 -
This sounds very interesting - have not read the entire thread yet but I am going to check out the podcasts & his site.0
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"...I'd be happy to elaborate. Most have not gotten morbidly obese by overindulging in all foods..."
Actually, for the last 25 years, I have NOT been "overindulging in all foods" if that was meant as a personal insult to me.
"...For some, they will need to repair the damage they did through years of willful ignorance and/or neglect of basic health concepts
"...You have been working at improving the damage you did for 62 years by taking drastic measures over the last 3 years..."
Well if this is not the case, why would a 56 pound weight loss since you've been on MFP be necessary. It's pretty obvious that you've had some challenges with the energy balance equation in the past, no? And don't I remember something in your backstory about overindulgence in sugary carbs? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?
As a child, I ate a lot of sugar, but I was pretty active and wasn't terribly obese--weighed about 180 when I graduated from high school. But I was already hypertensive. Went down to an athletic 140 during university by cutting excess carbs and being active. Then life happened. I got married and went on the birth control pill and found that my weight had suddenly become uncontrollable. Many women experience this, by the way---especially those who have genetic tendencies to blood sugar problems. Too tired to go into the bio-chemistry right now.
I nearly bled out during childbirth and because the pituitary was damaged as a result (you can Google this if you care to learn something) I was left with hypothroidism. I could go on but, as I said, I'm tired and need to go to bed.0 -
When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
The research is clear that many individuals simply cannot afford empty calories. Women have much more efficient metabolisms than do men. Recent research (it was done at Harvard Med I believe) has shown that most women must cut 3,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat but most men must only cut 2,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat. The research has also shown that MANY obese women do NOT eat excessively.
how did they get obese then, over training?
I was unaware that females were outside of the laws of mathematics. It is accepted fact that there is 3500 calories in one pound of fat..unless I am missing something...therefore if a male or female cuts 500 cals a day/3500 cals a week they should each lose 1 pound per week....
You obviously don't get mulberry math!!
:laugh: 0 -
Hey, hey, hey! That sounds like logic and making sense. We'll have none of that around here mister!! Pizza = bad. Simple......now that you mention it, it's been more that a week since I had me some pizza. Got to do something about that.When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
I have NEVER eaten more than 3,000 calories in any day for the vast majority of my life. For the last 20 years or so, I have probably only exceeded 2,500 calories on rare occasions. You simply do not understand the daily struggles of many people. Do the math. If you exceed your required calories by only 100 calories a day for ten years, at the end of that ten years, you will have gained 100 pounds. You don't know what you think you do.
Seems simple to me: Don't average 100 calories per day over maintenance for 10 years.
Did I miss something??
Btw, I am a male 5'9'' and just under 200 lbs. 2500 is just about my maintenance number. I would think that would gain weight for you? Big surprise.:huh:
edited for spelling
Only thing is, I probably didn't eat even that much if you count all the years when I dieted obsessively.0 -
When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
The research is clear that many individuals simply cannot afford empty calories. Women have much more efficient metabolisms than do men. Recent research (it was done at Harvard Med I believe) has shown that most women must cut 3,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat but most men must only cut 2,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat. The research has also shown that MANY obese women do NOT eat excessively.
Publish that research or don't quote it. That looks like a bunch of bovine fecal matter to me. Way to make things up.. lol
And you are accusing me of lying. I will provide the proof that I am NOT tomorrow. Goodnight.0 -
"...I'd be happy to elaborate. Most have not gotten morbidly obese by overindulging in all foods..."
Actually, for the last 25 years, I have NOT been "overindulging in all foods" if that was meant as a personal insult to me.
"...For some, they will need to repair the damage they did through years of willful ignorance and/or neglect of basic health concepts
"...You have been working at improving the damage you did for 62 years by taking drastic measures over the last 3 years..."
Well if this is not the case, why would a 56 pound weight loss since you've been on MFP be necessary. It's pretty obvious that you've had some challenges with the energy balance equation in the past, no? And don't I remember something in your backstory about overindulgence in sugary carbs? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?
As a child, I ate a lot of sugar, but I was pretty active and wasn't terribly obese--weighed about 180 when I graduated from high school. But I was already hypertensive. Went down to an athletic 140 during university by cutting excess carbs and being active. Then life happened. I got married and went on the birth control pill and found that my weight had suddenly become uncontrollable. Some women experience this, by the way---especially those who have genetic tendencies to blood sugar problems. Too tired to go into the bio-chemistry right now.
I nearly bled out during childbirth and because the pituitary was damaged as a result (you can Google this if you care to learn something) I was left with hypothroidism. I could go on but, as I said, I'm tired and need to go to bed.
Fixed it for you. My wife didn't experience that. Neither did my sister. Nor anyone in my extended family (50 first cousins plus spouses) nor any of their children of childbearing age with the exception of one woman. That's over 70 women in my family study. Guess it's not many. It's some. Again, stop making excuses. Great on you that you lost the weight but take responsibility for gaining it and stop blaming factors over which you had control for the most part. You are not a victim.0 -
Bump :happy:0
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When cornered he admits that calories ultimately rule but eating the right foods can help the process and address metabolic issues.
I think this is spot on.
Obviously calories do matter but in a real world scenario certain foods or dieting structures make it easier for people to stay consistently in deficit, others make it harder. Unless you're a masochist then choosing the way that makes adherence easier is your best bet.
The "right" combination is due to a myriad of factors both physiological and psychological in my view but what seems clear to me is that it is quite a personal thing.
While this type of dieting may sound "restrictive" to one person it may not seem restrictive at all to another - how can you feel restricted if you are not craving something and have little desire to eat it?
It may seem astonishing but some people end up in a situation where they can take or leave pasta, bread, booze etc. They hold little sway. It is not a case of "never eating something again" - but rather having the flexibility to not be overly bothered in having it (or not as he case may be.)
^^^^THIS TOTALLY^^^^^ I am never bothered by not eating the foods that formerly made me fat and sick. I rarely, if ever, miss them now.
did foods make you fat, or did eating too much of them make you fat?
I can eat a pizza and not gain a pound...if I eat pizza three times a dayI will gain weight...so what made me gain weight pizza in general, or eating too much pizza?
The research is clear that many individuals simply cannot afford empty calories. Women have much more efficient metabolisms than do men. Recent research (it was done at Harvard Med I believe) has shown that most women must cut 3,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat but most men must only cut 2,500 calories to lose a pound of body fat. The research has also shown that MANY obese women do NOT eat excessively.
if a person is losing a pound on 2500 calori cut, they are more than likely losing more lean mass
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html
"There is a built in assumption in the above that turns out to not be necessarily correct but also throws a wrench into expectations about the energy balance equation. That assumption is that 100% fat is being lost when a deficit is created. Now, if you diet correctly (e.g. the way I describe in my books), this is a pretty good assumption but it’s not universally true. Often people also lose muscle and connective tissue on a diet.
And the issue is that muscle and connective tissue doesn’t provide as much energy to the body as a pound of fat. Rather than 3,500 calories to break down a pound of fat, a pound of muscle provides about 600 calories to the body when it’s broken down for energy.
Let me put this in mathematical terms, to show you how the identical 3,500 calorie/week deficit can yield drastically different changes in body mass depending on what percentage of tissue you’re losing. I’m going to use the extremes of 100% fat, 50/50 fat and muscle, and 100% muscle.
Condition
Energy Yield
Total Weight Lost
100% Fat
3500 cal/lb
1 pound
50%Fat/50% Muscle
2050 cal/lb
1.7 pounds
100% Muscle
600 cal/lb
5.8 pounds
See what’s going on? The assumption of one pound per week (3,500 cal/week deficit) is only valid for the condition where you lose 100% fat. If you lose 50% fat and 50% muscle, you will lose 1.7 pounds in a week for the same 3,500 calorie deficit. Lose 100% muscle (this never happens, mind you, it’s just for illustration) and you lose 5.8 pounds per week."
"0 -
I will always argue for 'CICO' because it's basics physics.
I won't argue that the 'CI' can affect the 'CO' to varying degrees.
I get the feeling that for people that are actually fairly fit, it probably doesn't make a big difference.
Agreed (although I do have certain reservations about the fairly fit part but I think it is generally true.)
Yes, the ultimate determinant of body weight is calorie balance. No question.
But biochemistry and the individual's metabolic profile is important is well. The fate of all calories are not the same and the biochemical pathways adopted depending on the individual can change what use is made of them.
We are in the main concerned with body fatness. Body fatness is based in part on a number of various hormones within the body working as they are intended to regulate body weight. In a normally functioning metabolism the body, when faced with a calorie deficit, many different uses are employed appropriately (cellular integrity, respiratory function etc.) with some to fat storage and burning and so forth (yes, I know this is a radical simplification but bear with me
In a metabolism that isn't working on par then yes, negative energy will result in fat loss. It must do. However, the amount of fat lost maybe so little that an individual simply cannot bear to maintain the deficit for long enough. Who wants to be running a calorie deficit for years? It is hugely inefficient for them so simply saying "eat less, move more" isn't particularly helpful.
For some people food choices really do matter a lot initially in my personal opinion and can make or break their fat loss attempts until their hormonal status (or psychological status or both!) has been returned to normal (that may not be possible for people with medical conditions however.)
I think the majority of people certainly can and do well with a flexible approach straight off the bat however. I think some people, the minority, do not. However, the minority can make up tens of millions of people. Sometimes a diet which is structured with minimisation or even avoidance of certain foods at the beginning before being slowly re introduced can work well for them.
Not everyone responds to the same solution.0 -
WTF?
Some of you are psychotic. If your not interested in the diet or don't like it don't bother commenting. Have your arguments somewhere else so that those of us who are interested can support each other and talk about our progress. Obviously CICO hasn't worked for us, get over it not everyone is the same.0 -
WTF?
Some of you are psychotic. If your not interested in the diet or don't like it don't bother commenting. Have your arguments somewhere else so that those of us who are interested can support each other and talk about our progress. Obviously CICO hasn't worked for us, get over it not everyone is the same.
so your saying no one should comment when they think something is bunk or someone is not making sense? If you don't like the threads stay out of them ...0 -
Diets result in weight gain 2 years after the diet is given up. Scientific statistical fact. Almost certainly because the will power to restrict calories can't be sustained. The only sustainable way is a lifestyle change.
So while restricted food intake can be sustained in the short term, pretty much everyone says a lifestyle change is needed. Even people who have stomach operations wind up putting on the weight 5 years after. There are some that say sugar (fructose) is to blame (David Gillespie Sweet Poison book).
But its pretty clear that the calories in calories out simple model is not valid. Otherwise with all the education in the world, every nation in the world is chasing to the most overweight!0
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