The conspiracy to make (and keep us) fat...

CoachReddy

I was just playing GTA IV and had to pause it to share a sudden revelation. Video game makers are profiting at the expense of their customers by deviously trying to make their games as fun as possible so people will keep buying them. WHERE'S MY PITCHFORK AND TORCH!

yeah not at all the same thing.

And yes, it is the same thing. People in business have essentially one goal...profit. Otherwise they'd be a non-profit organization. The way you make profit is through market research, and innovation. Food companies are doing the same thing that every other company does.

well if I grant you that as true, then it also means that drug companies are trying to keep people sick right?

CoachReddy

we decide what we buy, but we rely on the government to tell us what is and isn't good for us!

Speak for yourself. The government has a vested interest in making me dependent on them. Why would I believe anything they say about what is and isn't good for me? I'm a well-educated person, and the Internet makes it possible for me to do my own research. I'll decide what is and isn't good for me.

The truth is that having "bad" food in moderation is not going to kill you. It's not even going to make you less healthy, assuming you have a reasonably active and reasonably low-stress lifestyle. Eating that crap (and ONLY that crap) every day is what is going to endanger your health and shorten your life. And that is entirely your decision and your fault. So it's not that processed food needs to disappear. It's that people need to take their heads out of their elected officials' *kitten* and start thinking for themselves.

*sigh* yep just ignore the rest of the quote where i mention that the information you get about health does, in fact, originate with the government in a large majority of cases.

LoraF83

I was just playing GTA IV and had to pause it to share a sudden revelation. Video game makers are profiting at the expense of their customers by deviously trying to make their games as fun as possible so people will keep buying them. WHERE'S MY PITCHFORK AND TORCH!

yeah not at all the same thing.

How is it not the same thing?

Think about this:

I saw a post the other day about jails being money-making corporations. Jails need inmates right? How do you get inmates? You need people to commit crimes. The more serious the crime, the better. Serious crimes are usually violent or drug related. Don't video games promote those things? Specifically GTA? Aren't there groups of people that testify to video games creating a violent culture? I believe that there have been numerous Congressional hearings on this topic. So, video games are violent which creates more violent people which creates business for jail security corporations. Government conspiracy.

Also this: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/01/government-pushes-propaganda-through-video-games.html

The government makes video games to promote wars and get increased participation in the military. Conspiracy.

well i don't think violent video games promote crime... so... whoops.

(parents are responsible. you know, remember that whole 'personal responsibility mantra y'all have?)

I agree. I'm not saying I believe it.

I'm saying that you can't argue that video games AREN'T a conspiracy in the same breath you argue that food is.

It's the same evidence.

CoachReddy

I was just playing GTA IV and had to pause it to share a sudden revelation. Video game makers are profiting at the expense of their customers by deviously trying to make their games as fun as possible so people will keep buying them. WHERE'S MY PITCHFORK AND TORCH!

yeah not at all the same thing.

How is it not the same thing?

Think about this:

I saw a post the other day about jails being money-making corporations. Jails need inmates right? How do you get inmates? You need people to commit crimes. The more serious the crime, the better. Serious crimes are usually violent or drug related. Don't video games promote those things? Specifically GTA? Aren't there groups of people that testify to video games creating a violent culture? I believe that there have been numerous Congressional hearings on this topic. So, video games are violent which creates more violent people which creates business for jail security corporations. Government conspiracy.

Also this: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/01/government-pushes-propaganda-through-video-games.html

The government makes video games to promote wars and get increased participation in the military. Conspiracy.

well i don't think violent video games promote crime... so... whoops.

(parents are responsible. you know, remember that whole 'personal responsibility mantra y'all have?)

I agree. I'm not saying I believe it.

I'm saying that you can't argue that video games AREN'T a conspiracy in the same breath you argue that food is.

It's the same evidence.

video game makers aren't funded by the government

nutritional research is.

whoops

BeachIron

OP never said she doesn't have responsibility for what goes in her mouth. In fact, she said she should steer clear rather than making it harder on herself. I think she understood her own body's reaction better and is then better equipped to take care of herself.

I agree. And some of the snotty replies to her topic are unnecessary, implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry... you bet it is a multimillion dollar industry, and they don't care if their food is unhealthy. Bullies everywhere, even on MFP.

Yep. Internet bullying. It's a rough business. :laugh:

CoachReddy

OP never said she doesn't have responsibility for what goes in her mouth. In fact, she said she should steer clear rather than making it harder on herself. I think she understood her own body's reaction better and is then better equipped to take care of herself.

I agree. And some of the snotty replies to her topic are unnecessary, implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry... you bet it is a multimillion dollar industry, and they don't care if their food is unhealthy. Bullies everywhere, even on MFP.

Yep. Internet bullying. It's a rough business. :laugh:

you know that internet bullying is what causes kids to commit suicide right?

really something you should be laughing about?

(and we wonder where they learn it.... sigh...)

Valerie_Malone

This also creates a big market for weight loss drugs...

BeachIron

OP never said she doesn't have responsibility for what goes in her mouth. In fact, she said she should steer clear rather than making it harder on herself. I think she understood her own body's reaction better and is then better equipped to take care of herself.

I agree. And some of the snotty replies to her topic are unnecessary, implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry... you bet it is a multimillion dollar industry, and they don't care if their food is unhealthy. Bullies everywhere, even on MFP.

Yep. Internet bullying. It's a rough business. :laugh:

you know that internet bullying is what causes kids to commit suicide right?

really something you should be laughing about?

(and we wonder where they learn it.... sigh...)

You know kids aren't allowed on this site, right? And the internet bullying you are speaking of involves actual attacks, not disagreements?

Akimajuktuq

Wrong. Healthy high fat food in the absence of high carbs is exactly what will return our bodies to it's natural, and healthy, state. Or everyone I know that eats this way are just "special snowflakes"; HEALTHY special snowflakes.... But go ahead and avoid fat and see how that works for ya in the long run.

TArnold2012

So true

CoachReddy

OP never said she doesn't have responsibility for what goes in her mouth. In fact, she said she should steer clear rather than making it harder on herself. I think she understood her own body's reaction better and is then better equipped to take care of herself.

I agree. And some of the snotty replies to her topic are unnecessary, implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry... you bet it is a multimillion dollar industry, and they don't care if their food is unhealthy. Bullies everywhere, even on MFP.

Yep. Internet bullying. It's a rough business. :laugh:

you know that internet bullying is what causes kids to commit suicide right?

really something you should be laughing about?

(and we wonder where they learn it.... sigh...)

You know kids aren't allowed on this site, right? And the internet bullying you are speaking of involves actual attacks, not disagreements?

I'm not going to derail, but do whatever you need to do to convince yourself that bullying anyone is ok...

BeachIron

OP never said she doesn't have responsibility for what goes in her mouth. In fact, she said she should steer clear rather than making it harder on herself. I think she understood her own body's reaction better and is then better equipped to take care of herself.

I agree. And some of the snotty replies to her topic are unnecessary, implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry... you bet it is a multimillion dollar industry, and they don't care if their food is unhealthy. Bullies everywhere, even on MFP.

Yep. Internet bullying. It's a rough business. :laugh:

you know that internet bullying is what causes kids to commit suicide right?

really something you should be laughing about?

(and we wonder where they learn it.... sigh...)

You know kids aren't allowed on this site, right? And the internet bullying you are speaking of involves actual attacks, not disagreements?

I'm not going to derail, but do whatever you need to do to convince yourself that bullying anyone is ok...

:sad: You still believe that disagreeing with your sales agenda is bullying. Wow. Just wow.

LoraF83

OP never said she doesn't have responsibility for what goes in her mouth. In fact, she said she should steer clear rather than making it harder on herself. I think she understood her own body's reaction better and is then better equipped to take care of herself.

I agree. And some of the snotty replies to her topic are unnecessary, implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry... you bet it is a multimillion dollar industry, and they don't care if their food is unhealthy. Bullies everywhere, even on MFP.

Yep. Internet bullying. It's a rough business. :laugh:

you know that internet bullying is what causes kids to commit suicide right?

really something you should be laughing about?

(and we wonder where they learn it.... sigh...)

You know kids aren't allowed on this site, right? And the internet bullying you are speaking of involves actual attacks, not disagreements?

Yeah, I'm a little offended that Reddy thinks that disagreements will lead to suicide attempts. And that he seems to think I'm raising my child to be a bully.

I'm offended, but not enough to report him - because I can understand that he has a disagreement about my opinion, not that he's bullying me.

Admiral_Derp

Here's the thing. There is a conspiracy between the government and food corporations to keep us buying food. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and drug companies to keep us going to the doctor when we need treatment for illness. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and oil companies to keep us buying fuel. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and banks to keep us banking. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and car companies to keep us buying cars. The same way.... Do you see where this is going?

This isn't a conspiracy. This is no more than the wheels of commerce turning. We want something. Someone provides it. We buy, and consume. Rinse and repeat. There are different levels of efficiency, and better or worse economic systems and marketplace models, but at the heart of it all is just supply and demand. As long as someone wants to buy something, someone will sell it because money provides necessity and comfort. It's been this way since the first caveman traded half a dead animal for a wheel, or a skin, or whatever. No conspiracy necessary.

right, that's the kicker. aside from this particular poster, very rarely is the word conspiracy even thrown around by folks on my side of the table that see the obvious conflict of interest. the WORD conspiracy comes from those who start offering us tin hats. I don't think it's a conspiracy, I think it's a bi-product of capitalism and a business-driven economy. The government, big pharma, monsanto, etc, they're all companies that run on profits, and each is dependent on the others' success for their success. that's why it may seem like a "conspiracy", but in reality, it's just good business at the expense of the consumer.

Here's the thing coach, you're leaving the biggest variable out of the equation. Both the government, and the corporation depend on one thing for their success more than they do on each other....the consumer. We decide who governs us, and we decide what we buy. They are working together to give us what we vote for, and want to purchase, and they also work together to line their pockets with as much money as possible. Because getting paid provides necessity and comfort. We're all part of the food chain. Food corporations do everything they can to make their food taste better so that people will keep buying it. That's their primary purpose. If I see it, I want it, and I think it tastes good, I will buy it. I'm glad they do what they do because it provides something I want. If you don't want it, that's fine, but quit demonizing those who do. It's entirely possible to live long, healthy, happy lives consuming this stuff, but it's the responsibility of the person buying it to use it well. This isn't exploitation...it's business.

we decide what we buy, but we rely on the government to tell us what is and isn't good for us! that's where the issue lies. unfortunately, while humanity is brilliant on an individual scale, en masse we're complete idiots. the majority of people in America probably still believe the food pyramid to be accurate and healthful. additionally, most nutritional studies are government-funded OR privately funded by companies who may or may not stand to gain from the information revealed in said study.

to ignore the conflict of interest is asinine.

If we blindly rely on the government or anyone else to tell us what is and isn't good for us, then whatever happens to us isn't their fault. It's ours. We live in a world where a collected wealth of information is available on our phones. We don't even have to go find a computer to look things up. I rely on my eyes, and my brain to tell me what is and isn't good for me. People who live under weak and ineffectual governments, or no government at all don't have the convenience of a government to blame for their ills. Do you know why? Because they are the arbiters of their own survival and well being. (Discounting of course, oppressive regimes, and a lack of resources.) They are forced to figure out what is good, and what isn't by trial and error. For those of us fortunate enough to live in a sea of information, there is no excuse. There is no conflict of interest. They decide what to make and we decide whether or not to buy it. There's no feigned nobility in what they do. Their job is to figure out the best way to make money. It's not always done honestly. Our job is to spend money. It's not always done wisely but whose fault is that?

where does this collected wealth of health information come from? studies done by researchers who are most likely funded by the government and companies that stand to benefit. it's all interconnected, that's all I'm saying.

you're acting as if I've said we shouldn't be held personally responsible. of course we should. but does that mean we should also let big business run unchecked? of course we shouldn't. that's what got us into this economic mess in the first place!

middle. ground.

is that so hard to comprehend?

The collected wealth of health information comes from both government financed studies, and independently financed studies. It comes from doctors, drug companies, health food companies, and junk food companies. It comes from a lot of places. Some of it is interconnected, and some of it isn't. Whose responsibility is it to keep big business in check? The government? We've already established how they work together. So who then does it fall back on? The consumer. The consumer either has to learn how to read a label, and use Google before deciding what to buy, or they need to stop electing certain government officials. Is there deception in the government, and in big business? Absolutely. Do advertisers lie to us? Of course. So how is the problem solved if not by us? Anyway....this merry-go-round has run its course.

ETA: middle ground - I do not think this means what you think it means.

alglenn2013

Luckily for me ice cream tends to be close to the perimeter of the store too..

HAHAHAHA! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

CoachReddy

Here's the thing. There is a conspiracy between the government and food corporations to keep us buying food. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and drug companies to keep us going to the doctor when we need treatment for illness. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and oil companies to keep us buying fuel. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and banks to keep us banking. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and car companies to keep us buying cars. The same way.... Do you see where this is going?

This isn't a conspiracy. This is no more than the wheels of commerce turning. We want something. Someone provides it. We buy, and consume. Rinse and repeat. There are different levels of efficiency, and better or worse economic systems and marketplace models, but at the heart of it all is just supply and demand. As long as someone wants to buy something, someone will sell it because money provides necessity and comfort. It's been this way since the first caveman traded half a dead animal for a wheel, or a skin, or whatever. No conspiracy necessary.

right, that's the kicker. aside from this particular poster, very rarely is the word conspiracy even thrown around by folks on my side of the table that see the obvious conflict of interest. the WORD conspiracy comes from those who start offering us tin hats. I don't think it's a conspiracy, I think it's a bi-product of capitalism and a business-driven economy. The government, big pharma, monsanto, etc, they're all companies that run on profits, and each is dependent on the others' success for their success. that's why it may seem like a "conspiracy", but in reality, it's just good business at the expense of the consumer.

Here's the thing coach, you're leaving the biggest variable out of the equation. Both the government, and the corporation depend on one thing for their success more than they do on each other....the consumer. We decide who governs us, and we decide what we buy. They are working together to give us what we vote for, and want to purchase, and they also work together to line their pockets with as much money as possible. Because getting paid provides necessity and comfort. We're all part of the food chain. Food corporations do everything they can to make their food taste better so that people will keep buying it. That's their primary purpose. If I see it, I want it, and I think it tastes good, I will buy it. I'm glad they do what they do because it provides something I want. If you don't want it, that's fine, but quit demonizing those who do. It's entirely possible to live long, healthy, happy lives consuming this stuff, but it's the responsibility of the person buying it to use it well. This isn't exploitation...it's business.

we decide what we buy, but we rely on the government to tell us what is and isn't good for us! that's where the issue lies. unfortunately, while humanity is brilliant on an individual scale, en masse we're complete idiots. the majority of people in America probably still believe the food pyramid to be accurate and healthful. additionally, most nutritional studies are government-funded OR privately funded by companies who may or may not stand to gain from the information revealed in said study.

to ignore the conflict of interest is asinine.

If we blindly rely on the government or anyone else to tell us what is and isn't good for us, then whatever happens to us isn't their fault. It's ours. We live in a world where a collected wealth of information is available on our phones. We don't even have to go find a computer to look things up. I rely on my eyes, and my brain to tell me what is and isn't good for me. People who live under weak and ineffectual governments, or no government at all don't have the convenience of a government to blame for their ills. Do you know why? Because they are the arbiters of their own survival and well being. (Discounting of course, oppressive regimes, and a lack of resources.) They are forced to figure out what is good, and what isn't by trial and error. For those of us fortunate enough to live in a sea of information, there is no excuse. There is no conflict of interest. They decide what to make and we decide whether or not to buy it. There's no feigned nobility in what they do. Their job is to figure out the best way to make money. It's not always done honestly. Our job is to spend money. It's not always done wisely but whose fault is that?

where does this collected wealth of health information come from? studies done by researchers who are most likely funded by the government and companies that stand to benefit. it's all interconnected, that's all I'm saying.

you're acting as if I've said we shouldn't be held personally responsible. of course we should. but does that mean we should also let big business run unchecked? of course we shouldn't. that's what got us into this economic mess in the first place!

middle. ground.

is that so hard to comprehend?

The collected wealth of health information comes from both government financed studies, and independently financed studies. It comes from doctors, drug companies, health food companies, and junk food companies. It comes from a lot of places. Some of it is interconnected, and some of it isn't. Whose responsibility is it to keep big business in check? The government? We've already established how they work together. So who then does it fall back on? The consumer. The consumer either has to learn how to read a label, and use Google before deciding what to buy, or they need to stop electing certain government officials. Is there deception in the government, and in big business? Absolutely. Do advertisers lie to us? Of course. So how is the problem solved if not by us? Anyway....this merry-go-round has run its course.

ETA: middle ground - I do not think this means what you think it means.

the consumer has no power because the consumer is fed misinformation buy these companies and the government. this is where your argument of consumer as a check on big business falls apart. the whole system is horribly flawed.

toutmonpossible

I'm so glad that gaining weight was not my fault. It's really convenient that I can blame my upbringing and the Big Food Manufacturers instead of blaming my inactivity.

Thank you for letting us know that we have no accountability with regards to our own health and well-being.

That wasn't the OP's point. And an awareness of how consumers are manipulated helps some get a grip on their eating habits. Just because the individual has accountability doesn’t mean BigFood shouldn't be called out, as were the tobacco companies.

CoachReddy

OP never said she doesn't have responsibility for what goes in her mouth. In fact, she said she should steer clear rather than making it harder on herself. I think she understood her own body's reaction better and is then better equipped to take care of herself.

I agree. And some of the snotty replies to her topic are unnecessary, implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry... you bet it is a multimillion dollar industry, and they don't care if their food is unhealthy. Bullies everywhere, even on MFP.

Yep. Internet bullying. It's a rough business. :laugh:

you know that internet bullying is what causes kids to commit suicide right?

really something you should be laughing about?

(and we wonder where they learn it.... sigh...)

You know kids aren't allowed on this site, right? And the internet bullying you are speaking of involves actual attacks, not disagreements?

Yeah, I'm a little offended that Reddy thinks that disagreements will lead to suicide attempts. And that he seems to think I'm raising my child to be a bully.

I'm offended, but not enough to report him - because I can understand that he has a disagreement about my opinion, not that he's bullying me.

no, come on, don't extrapolate what I said to something entirely different. I get in disagreements on here daily. that's not bullying and not what I was referring to.

i just think that it would behoove us to treat each other with a little more respect and not laugh about internet bullying like BeachIron did. making people feel like crap for posting something they found interesting is not really a great thing to be doing. But who knows... I could be wrong.

Calliope610

Here's the thing. There is a conspiracy between the government and food corporations to keep us buying food. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and drug companies to keep us going to the doctor when we need treatment for illness. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and oil companies to keep us buying fuel. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and banks to keep us banking. The same way there is a conspiracy between the government and car companies to keep us buying cars. The same way.... Do you see where this is going?

This isn't a conspiracy. This is no more than the wheels of commerce turning. We want something. Someone provides it. We buy, and consume. Rinse and repeat. There are different levels of efficiency, and better or worse economic systems and marketplace models, but at the heart of it all is just supply and demand. As long as someone wants to buy something, someone will sell it because money provides necessity and comfort. It's been this way since the first caveman traded half a dead animal for a wheel, or a skin, or whatever. No conspiracy necessary.

right, that's the kicker. aside from this particular poster, very rarely is the word conspiracy even thrown around by folks on my side of the table that see the obvious conflict of interest. the WORD conspiracy comes from those who start offering us tin hats. I don't think it's a conspiracy, I think it's a bi-product of capitalism and a business-driven economy. The government, big pharma, monsanto, etc, they're all companies that run on profits, and each is dependent on the others' success for their success. that's why it may seem like a "conspiracy", but in reality, it's just good business at the expense of the consumer.

Here's the thing coach, you're leaving the biggest variable out of the equation. Both the government, and the corporation depend on one thing for their success more than they do on each other....the consumer. We decide who governs us, and we decide what we buy. They are working together to give us what we vote for, and want to purchase, and they also work together to line their pockets with as much money as possible. Because getting paid provides necessity and comfort. We're all part of the food chain. Food corporations do everything they can to make their food taste better so that people will keep buying it. That's their primary purpose. If I see it, I want it, and I think it tastes good, I will buy it. I'm glad they do what they do because it provides something I want. If you don't want it, that's fine, but quit demonizing those who do. It's entirely possible to live long, healthy, happy lives consuming this stuff, but it's the responsibility of the person buying it to use it well. This isn't exploitation...it's business.

we decide what we buy, but we rely on the government to tell us what is and isn't good for us! that's where the issue lies. unfortunately, while humanity is brilliant on an individual scale, en masse we're complete idiots. the majority of people in America probably still believe the food pyramid to be accurate and healthful. additionally, most nutritional studies are government-funded OR privately funded by companies who may or may not stand to gain from the information revealed in said study.

to ignore the conflict of interest is asinine.

If we blindly rely on the government or anyone else to tell us what is and isn't good for us, then whatever happens to us isn't their fault. It's ours. We live in a world where a collected wealth of information is available on our phones. We don't even have to go find a computer to look things up. I rely on my eyes, and my brain to tell me what is and isn't good for me. People who live under weak and ineffectual governments, or no government at all don't have the convenience of a government to blame for their ills. Do you know why? Because they are the arbiters of their own survival and well being. (Discounting of course, oppressive regimes, and a lack of resources.) They are forced to figure out what is good, and what isn't by trial and error. For those of us fortunate enough to live in a sea of information, there is no excuse. There is no conflict of interest. They decide what to make and we decide whether or not to buy it. There's no feigned nobility in what they do. Their job is to figure out the best way to make money. It's not always done honestly. Our job is to spend money. It's not always done wisely but whose fault is that?

where does this collected wealth of health information come from? studies done by researchers who are most likely funded by the government and companies that stand to benefit. it's all interconnected, that's all I'm saying.

you're acting as if I've said we shouldn't be held personally responsible. of course we should. but does that mean we should also let big business run unchecked? of course we shouldn't. that's what got us into this economic mess in the first place!

middle. ground.

is that so hard to comprehend?

The collected wealth of health information comes from both government financed studies, and independently financed studies. It comes from doctors, drug companies, health food companies, and junk food companies. It comes from a lot of places. Some of it is interconnected, and some of it isn't. Whose responsibility is it to keep big business in check? The government? We've already established how they work together. So who then does it fall back on? The consumer. The consumer either has to learn how to read a label, and use Google before deciding what to buy, or they need to stop electing certain government officials. Is there deception in the government, and in big business? Absolutely. Do advertisers lie to us? Of course. So how is the problem solved if not by us? Anyway....this merry-go-round has run its course.

ETA: middle ground - I do not think this means what you think it means.

the consumer has no power because the consumer is fed misinformation buy these companies and the government. this is where your argument of consumer as a check on big business falls apart. the whole system is horribly flawed.

So we are totally screwed. Oh well, just eat whatever-the-hell you want to because we are all gonna die eventually.

BeachIron

OP never said she doesn't have responsibility for what goes in her mouth. In fact, she said she should steer clear rather than making it harder on herself. I think she understood her own body's reaction better and is then better equipped to take care of herself.

I agree. And some of the snotty replies to her topic are unnecessary, implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry... you bet it is a multimillion dollar industry, and they don't care if their food is unhealthy. Bullies everywhere, even on MFP.

Yep. Internet bullying. It's a rough business. :laugh:

you know that internet bullying is what causes kids to commit suicide right?

really something you should be laughing about?

(and we wonder where they learn it.... sigh...)

You know kids aren't allowed on this site, right? And the internet bullying you are speaking of involves actual attacks, not disagreements?

Yeah, I'm a little offended that Reddy thinks that disagreements will lead to suicide attempts. And that he seems to think I'm raising my child to be a bully.

I'm offended, but not enough to report him - because I can understand that he has a disagreement about my opinion, not that he's bullying me.

I found it interesting that the earlier poster claimed that "implying that she is stupid or blaming the food industry" is bullying when she (the poster to which she refers) is clearly blaming the food industry and does so on MFP regularly. I do not see the point in blaming others for one's own problems. These individuals have replaced personal responsibility with "conspiracies" and "bullies" so they avoid responsibility in their own minds for failed weight loss attempts. It's actually quite tragic.