Why high dietary fat %? Are we trying to kill each other?

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  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    The idea of telling people who are obese to set their goals to "0.35g of fat per lb of total body weight as a minimum target" is poor science and could be harmful to their health.

    ^^ Here is your original claim ^^


    You then followed it up with this:
    At no time did I say that more than .35g is dangerous


    Which one is it?
  • DatMurse
    DatMurse Posts: 1,501 Member
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    Where is your basis for asserting that the information in our thread is dangerous?
    Additionally, obese people may use lbm instead of total bodyweight but even still, considering that .35/lb is the minimum recommended value I don't see anything in that thread as being potentially dangerous.

    Why is .35g per pound considered the minumum valiue? According to whom?

    I will make a fuller response later as I am on my phone - but could you answer the question please.

    Every medical reference and study indicates that 25-35% of calories from fat is the max appropriate for good health and nutrition.

    My question initially is where did your post originate? What is the reference? Certainly you can answer on your phone.

    Please cite some of the references that say more than 0.35g is dangerous

    And I said that I would answer more fully when I get to my computer.


    At no time did I say that more than .35g is dangerous. When applied to people who are already overweight the percentage of fat from calories becomes excessive and can be harmful.. The accepted standard within the medical community is 25-35% as a percent of calories regardless of the source ("good" vs "bad" fat).

    References:
    http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/fat/
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fat/nu00262/nsectiongroup=2
    http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/150083/E79832.pdf
    Throw in AHA, ADA, etc.

    you asked "are we trying to kill eachother?"

    your body oxidizes multiple forms of energy at the same time, protein, fat, and carbs
    selection of energy that your body chooses to oxidize is based upon intake and availability.

    the higher fat you intake the more your body will oxidize it.
    same with the other macronutrients.

    some are more prone to oxidize than others. such as carbs.

    saturated fat is not harmful. It can be considered harmful for those who are inactive and overweight. then again same with carbohydrates.

    hypercaloric diet+high carbs=diabetes
    hypercaoric diet+high fat= plaque build up in your vessels.
    if you take hypercaloric out of the equation, neither of those will happen

    the only bad macro is trans fat

    any disease that is a complication of diet is usually related to malnourishment or overeating.
    physical activity also plays a huge factor in whether people will get a disease or not
  • TimeForMe99
    TimeForMe99 Posts: 309
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    The idea of telling people who are obese to set their goals to "0.35g of fat per lb of total body weight as a minimum target" is poor science and could be harmful to their health.

    ^^ Here is your original claim ^^


    You then followed it up with this:
    At no time did I say that more than .35g is dangerous


    Which one is it?

    I said it could be harmful to the obese - not to everyone.

    Why are you unwilling to reveal your source. Could it be that there isn't one?

    If you put a little more effort into answering the question at hand and less being on the offensive
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    At no time did I say that more than .35g is dangerous.

    The title of the thread indicates otherwise.
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member
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    'The recommendation would be made for someone on a low carb high fat diet. You can't eat potato chips and losing weight, but you can eat bacon and lose weight :) '

    ^^^^ this :-)

    Utter nonsense. You can eat potato chips and lose weight. It's not ideal to make chips a dietary staple, but having chips now and then won't hurt your weight loss.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    The idea of telling people who are obese to set their goals to "0.35g of fat per lb of total body weight as a minimum target" is poor science and could be harmful to their health.

    ^^ Here is your original claim ^^


    You then followed it up with this:
    At no time did I say that more than .35g is dangerous


    Which one is it?

    I said it could be harmful to the obese - not to everyone.

    Why are you unwilling to reveal your source. Could it be that there isn't one?

    If you put a little more effort into answering the question at hand and less being on the offensive

    I prioritize the many requests for help and information by politeness of the asker. I'll get back to you sometime in 2015.
  • DatMurse
    DatMurse Posts: 1,501 Member
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    The idea of telling people who are obese to set their goals to "0.35g of fat per lb of total body weight as a minimum target" is poor science and could be harmful to their health.

    ^^ Here is your original claim ^^


    You then followed it up with this:
    At no time did I say that more than .35g is dangerous


    Which one is it?

    I said it could be harmful to the obese - not to everyone.

    Why are you unwilling to reveal your source. Could it be that there isn't one?

    If you put a little more effort into answering the question at hand and less being on the offensive

    using source?
    You dont even understand the basics of physiology, nor do you understand the role of fat or a proper TDEE calculator.
    250 lb woman who is 46, sedentary burns about 2300 calories a day
    800 calories will come from fat. that is near 33%.
    On a hypocaloric diet, fat intake wont play a role in clogging your arteries or causing heart disease like you think it will
    Fat has a physiological function of controlling hormones

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8886565

    there is the study if you can interpret it. they
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
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    I don’t have time to search all of pubmed for different articles, but technically only needed one. The Mediterranean diet can improve health and insulin sensitivity and is based on 40% fats. Many obese individuals suffer from insulin sensitivity and/or insulin resistance:
    http://ca3cx5qj7w.search.serialssolutions.com/OpenURL_local?sid=Entrez:PubMed&id=pmid:23485520

    Interesting to see different dietary guidelines in different countries (Germany’s diet tetrahedron is awesome!) There aren’t macro breakdowns in percentages, but you can easily see how they vary from country to country:
    http://www.eufic.org/article/en/expid/food-based-dietary-guidelines-in-europe/

    Assumption that the composition of dietary fats doesn’t matter is stupid:
    http://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.ezproxyhost.library.tmc.edu/pmc/articles/PMC3546618/
    http://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.ezproxyhost.library.tmc.edu/pmc/articles/PMC3599567/
    http://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.ezproxyhost.library.tmc.edu/pubmed/22950668

    ETA: Just realized all my links have my university's library in them. Hopefully y'all can access the links.
  • DatMurse
    DatMurse Posts: 1,501 Member
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    this is the problem with the internet.

    those reccomendations of fat intake were based off of an isocaloric diet.
    obviously if the person has drops carbs the fat and protein energy percentage are going to go up.
    People ask for sources but do not even have a basic understanding.


    250 lb woman is not going to have a maintenance of 1800 calories.

    the average person is supposed to consume 2000 calories a day.
  • willdob3
    willdob3 Posts: 640 Member
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    i'll give it a go with 'fat doesnt make you fat'.....?

    That sums it up well.

    Anyone who thinks otherwise should do some research. We were sold a pile of...with the whole fat kills, eat low fat fairy tale the gv't pushed/pushes.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    250 lb woman is not going to have a maintenance of 1800 calories.

    ^ This is one reason why I'm not concerned with the .35g/lb recommendation being out of line. I show 250-300lb people to still end up with a fat intake that is roughly in the 25-35% range in terms of percentage of total intake when you actually math out the appropriate TDEE.
  • TimeForMe99
    TimeForMe99 Posts: 309
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    this is the problem with the internet.

    those reccomendations of fat intake were based off of an isocaloric diet.
    obviously if the person has drops carbs the fat and protein energy percentage are going to go up.
    People ask for sources but do not even have a basic understanding.


    250 lb woman is not going to have a maintenance of 1800 calories.

    the average person is supposed to consume 2000 calories a day.


    I have more of an understanding than you do, apparently. I can actually read the comments of others. Nothing was said about maintenance; the example was for a woman eating at a deficit.

    If you don't have a source then please do not propigate misinformation. You are doing a disservice to the good people on this forum. Providing a link to a 16yo diabetes study does not further your case.

    FYI - I have been studying nutrition for over 30 years, starting when my father developed type-2 diabetes. He was never overweight - actually had trouble meeting the USAF minimum for his height. He later required bypass surgery. The only risk factor was his diet, which contained hight levels of fat and insufficient micronutrients. Which is why this is so important to me.
  • CoachReddy
    CoachReddy Posts: 3,949 Member
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    Guys can we all just shut up and notice that Sara, side steel and I are on the same side here? If THAT doesn't convince you, nothing will. Haha
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    Guys can we all just shut up and notice that Sara, side steel and I are on the same side here? If THAT doesn't convince you, nothing will. Haha

    vcrjw5.jpg
  • Mia_RagazzaTosta
    Mia_RagazzaTosta Posts: 4,885 Member
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    You sound hangry.

    And why are you picking a fight with people who obviously know what they're doing?
  • DatMurse
    DatMurse Posts: 1,501 Member
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    this is the problem with the internet.

    those reccomendations of fat intake were based off of an isocaloric diet.
    obviously if the person has drops carbs the fat and protein energy percentage are going to go up.
    People ask for sources but do not even have a basic understanding.


    250 lb woman is not going to have a maintenance of 1800 calories.

    the average person is supposed to consume 2000 calories a day.


    I have more of an understanding than you do, apparently. I can actually read the comments of others. Nothing was said about maintenance; the example was for a woman eating at a deficit.

    If you don't have a source then please do not propigate misinformation. You are doing a disservice to the good people on this forum. Providing a link to a 16yo diabetes study does not further your case.

    FYI - I have been studying nutrition for over 30 years, starting when my father developed type-2 diabetes. He was never overweight - actually had trouble meeting the USAF minimum for his height. He later required bypass surgery. The only risk factor was his diet, which contained hight levels of fat and insufficient micronutrients. Which is why this is so important to me.
    1. 30 years of studying nutrition and you cannot even calculate caloric intake for a sedentary person.
    2. a 250 lb woman is not going to be utilizing 1800 calories a day
    3. in that case the fat would fall into the mayoclinic guidelines of 20-35%
    4. diabetes is not cause by dietary fat. it is cause by deterioration of insulin resistance which can be contributed to a high carbohydrate diet, high amounts of adipose tissue, and physical inactivity


    You say you have been studying nutrition for 30 years but nothing you said has matched up. either that or you have not evaluated any studies for a long time




    Moderate fat
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/79/2/204.short
    33% fat energy

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15148063
    low fat vs low carb

    Here is a ketogenic diet with type 2 diabetes vs low carb
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23155696

    My grandfather was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. this was caused by a higher carbohydrate intake and lack of physical activity.
  • ryry_
    ryry_ Posts: 4,966 Member
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    this is the problem with the internet.

    those reccomendations of fat intake were based off of an isocaloric diet.
    obviously if the person has drops carbs the fat and protein energy percentage are going to go up.
    People ask for sources but do not even have a basic understanding.


    250 lb woman is not going to have a maintenance of 1800 calories.

    the average person is supposed to consume 2000 calories a day.


    I have more of an understanding than you do, apparently. I can actually read the comments of others. Nothing was said about maintenance; the example was for a woman eating at a deficit.

    If you don't have a source then please do not propigate misinformation. You are doing a disservice to the good people on this forum. Providing a link to a 16yo diabetes study does not further your case.

    FYI - I have been studying nutrition for over 30 years, starting when my father developed type-2 diabetes. He was never overweight - actually had trouble meeting the USAF minimum for his height. He later required bypass surgery. The only risk factor was his diet, which contained hight levels of fat and insufficient micronutrients. Which is why this is so important to me.

    From my understanding (possibly flawed) the cause of diabetes is the role of pancreas and insulin is off. You cells are insulin resistant due to chronically high blood sugar (carbs not fat) and your pancreas keeps producing insulin but it cannot lower your blood sugar and eventually your pancreas just dies (metaphorically). So carbohydrate restriction seems more relevant than fat restriction to your point.

    ETA; Physical inactivity is also a major risk factor as your body is not naturally burning off glucose through physical exertion.
  • DatMurse
    DatMurse Posts: 1,501 Member
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    this is the problem with the internet.

    those reccomendations of fat intake were based off of an isocaloric diet.
    obviously if the person has drops carbs the fat and protein energy percentage are going to go up.
    People ask for sources but do not even have a basic understanding.


    250 lb woman is not going to have a maintenance of 1800 calories.

    the average person is supposed to consume 2000 calories a day.


    I have more of an understanding than you do, apparently. I can actually read the comments of others. Nothing was said about maintenance; the example was for a woman eating at a deficit.

    If you don't have a source then please do not propigate misinformation. You are doing a disservice to the good people on this forum. Providing a link to a 16yo diabetes study does not further your case.

    FYI - I have been studying nutrition for over 30 years, starting when my father developed type-2 diabetes. He was never overweight - actually had trouble meeting the USAF minimum for his height. He later required bypass surgery. The only risk factor was his diet, which contained hight levels of fat and insufficient micronutrients. Which is why this is so important to me.

    From my understanding (possibly flawed) the cause of diabetes is the role of pancreas and insulin is off. You cells are insulin resistant due to chronically high blood sugar (carbs not fat) and your pancreas keeps producing insulin but it cannot lower your blood sugar and eventually your pancreas just dies (metaphorically). So carbohydrate restriction seems more relevant than fat restriction to your point.

    ETA; Physical inactivity is also a major risk factor as your body is not naturally burning off glucose through physical exertion.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15297079
    fat will make you fatter if you are on a hypercaloric diet which in turns increases adipose tissue
    decreases insulin sensitivity.
    bam diabetes

    She hasnt been studying nutrition for 30 years and if she has been she is doing it wrong.

    There are plenty of hypocaloric high fat diets which even decreases plasma lipids and reduces for CHD

    I am not trying to sound like an *kitten* but if you are going to brag about how much you studied or what you know. the next thing that comes out of your mouth or typing better be right.

    Her information is wrong and that is learned from basic nutrition or basic A&P classes
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
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    Guys can we all just shut up and notice that Sara, side steel and I are on the same side here? If THAT doesn't convince you, nothing will. Haha

    vcrjw5.jpg

    Ha, officially awesome!
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
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    The question you are asking, essentially, is whether a ketogenic diet safe, and in particular for obese people?

    The answer appears to be yes if the diet is set up appropriately.

    For example:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716748/

    Having said that no one really needs to be on a keto diet unless they have specific metabolic issues which will benefit from its use.

    Unfortunately since Ancel Keys stuck his oar in people are labouring under the impression that dietary cholesterol has some magical effect on serum cholesterol...

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