Ketogenic Diet

medic2038

ketogenic diets in general aren't that great for preserving muscle mass.

A typical high-fat/low-carb/moderate-protein is no worse or better at preserving lean mass. However there is considerable evidence - as Lyle McDonald get's into in both his book "The Ketogenic Diet" and on his website, showing that a higher protein version of the diet is a very appropriate choice for body recomposition.

If you do HIIT then more protein will get converted to glucose and used for energy. This will come from muscle protein.

This is not necessarily true. I always do my HIIT starting about 30-45 minutes after ingestion of my highest-carb meal of the day - typically 15 to 20g of carbohydrate for me. This ensures there is enough circulating glucose in the system to fuel the HIIT.

Also of note, although ketogenic dieters have reduced glycogen stores compared to non-keto dieters, they still have enough to fuel HIIT exercise at reasonable levels; even moreso for those that choose to do a CKD (cyclic ketogenic diet) which is excellent for fat-loss with retention of lean muscle-mass, as all research indicates.

It's a bit more cmoplex than this, because HIIT is anaerobic doesn't burn carbs(glycogen) so much... but hopefully you get the **** of it.

Anaerobic exercise can ONLY use glucose for it's metabolism, so yes it DOES burn carbs/glycogen - which is the opposite of what you state above.

Also, it would only be in extreme circumstances an individual catabolizes lean tissue to support this. Most dieters on MFP are not capable of the effort required to actually get into a zero-glycogen state, let-alone continue to exercise after-such to start catabolizing lean tissue.

I do agree the higher the protein the better it will be at preserving muscle mass. But we're looking at a ketogenic diet, not a low carb diet.

Through out your post it seems like you're talking about a non ketogenic diet. About the anerobic pathway, I am thinking along the lines of the creatine phosphate system. Glucose is involved but not directly. As you know if glucose was involved directly we would be able to sprint at our max for a good amount of time 10-20mins, it's just not reality. I was tired, and i don't ike getting to much in to details with people on mfp who posts. I just try to keep it simple. As you know sometimes simplicity leaves things out.

Pu, keto and low carb are essentially the same. When I reference my forms of dieting I'm going almost exclusively from Lyle McDonald's work, but Atkins does put someone in ketosis. Where Atkins (and plenty of other low carb diets) go very wrong, is that many aren't very technical. Many of them don't explain the first "big drop" is a glycogen related fluid shift, and simply go by "eat when you're hungry". Which is partly why some people in general think keto is the "all you can eat bacon diet".

Now with the glygocen storage thing:
Even someone doing a SKD (with no carb ups) is still going to have SOME muscle glycogen, although it's typically lower than the other forms. Whereas a CKD (with carb ups) takes advantage of glycogen supercompensation. Hormonal issues aside, the primary reason for carbups is energy.

It then become something of a catch 22 scenario (regarding keto). If someone is actually cognizant of glycogen and performance, they're also likely to be on a CKD for the same reason. What a person is actually doing is going to dictate what they should be doing diet wise.

Ketogenic diet is determined by the ketone concentration in the blood. Doing a low carb doesn't necessarily mean you will be in ketosis. If you do low carb you can eat a ton of protein which can throw you out of ketosis.

You're right, but the actual amount of protein most people have to eat for that is pretty high. There's people out there that DO bulk on keto with a protein intake of around 2g/lbm.
You said it yourself, someone needs to eat a ton of protein for gluconeogenis to the be primary energy source (and of course both carbs and fats would likely have to be absent as well).
You can be as nit picky as you want with it, but essentially anyone eating low carb is also going to be in ketosis.

belizsera

That's awesome!

I'm sleeping all night, not only am I sleeping all night but I'm sleeping HARD! I love it!

This is the best part of keto for me. I sleep the whole night. I don't wake up AT ALL. Doesn't mater what time I go to bed, I always wake up at 5:30 am and I feel rested. That never happened before keto. I have done two Carb Feed days in 4 months and I gotta tell you that I felt like **** and slept like **** afterwards. I was trying out the CKD version of the ketogenic diet and as great as I felt during my workout, being able to lift and go for an hour with no problem, the side effects were not worth it (not sleeping well, waking up the next day with a migraine, thirst like nobodies business and stomach issues)

savoiaS1

Keto is garbage. It tricks people into thinking they doing some crazy thing with their body but in reality all Keto is is a calorie restriction in disguise. Low carb does help to lose water weight and glycogen which can be good to lose some quick pounds.

RiesigJay

all Keto is is a calorie restriction in disguise.

Oh really? Is that all it is? Please sir, tell us more!

FunkyTobias

Let me see. almost half of all protein gets converted to glucose. For every gram of protein consume 48% of it gets converted to glucose. The brain uses about 100g, so you need more than 100g to not be in ketosis. To consume 102g of glucose assuming you're eating 30g of carbs a day. You need to eat 150g of protein. That's enough to throw you out of ketosis consuming 30g of net carbs.

I would love to see where you're getting your numbers, because your're simply wrong. Gluconogenesis has been repeatedly been shown to be stable under varying levels of intake.




The fate of amino acids deaminated following protein ingestion is uncertain. Presumably, the majority of the carbon skeletons of the amino acids are converted into glucose in the liver. In the present study, tritiated glucose dilution tracer studies have been used to determine the effect of a protein meal on the glucose appearance rate in plasma. Five normal male subjects ingested 50 g of protein in the form of cottage cheese. The glucose appearance rate was determined using a constant infusion of 3H-glucose, and compared to the glucose appearance rate following the ingestion of just water in the same subjects over an 8-hour period. The total amount of protein deaminated and converted to urea also was quantitated. Urea production could account for the metabolism of 29.3 g of protein ingested, or 58.5%. Glucose appearing in the circulation as a result of amino acid metabolism determined by tracer methodology was 9.68 +/- 5.7 g. Based on the gluconeogenic potential of cottage cheese (42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein), this could only account for at most 43% of protein metabolized, or 23% of the total amount of protein ingested. The fate of the remaining amino acids metabolized remains to be determined.

http://www.jacn.org/content/11/6/701.abstract

CoachReddy

all Keto is is a calorie restriction in disguise.

Oh really? Is that all it is? Please sir, tell us more!

bro stop while you're way behind. it's a good way for you to lose all your muscle mass.

savoiaS1

all Keto is is a calorie restriction in disguise.

Oh really? Is that all it is? Please sir, tell us more!

Im not going to go into the details of ketosis or how using ketones for energy ect ect. Because I believe it is an unhealthy and stressful way to lose weight. I should have been less blunt and gave a better option but Im tired of hearing about Keto. Altho if youd like to "educate" me with your knowledge and out of this world physique please do so.

medic2038

ketogenic diets in general aren't that great for preserving muscle mass.

A typical high-fat/low-carb/moderate-protein is no worse or better at preserving lean mass. However there is considerable evidence - as Lyle McDonald get's into in both his book "The Ketogenic Diet" and on his website, showing that a higher protein version of the diet is a very appropriate choice for body recomposition.

If you do HIIT then more protein will get converted to glucose and used for energy. This will come from muscle protein.

This is not necessarily true. I always do my HIIT starting about 30-45 minutes after ingestion of my highest-carb meal of the day - typically 15 to 20g of carbohydrate for me. This ensures there is enough circulating glucose in the system to fuel the HIIT.

Also of note, although ketogenic dieters have reduced glycogen stores compared to non-keto dieters, they still have enough to fuel HIIT exercise at reasonable levels; even moreso for those that choose to do a CKD (cyclic ketogenic diet) which is excellent for fat-loss with retention of lean muscle-mass, as all research indicates.

It's a bit more cmoplex than this, because HIIT is anaerobic doesn't burn carbs(glycogen) so much... but hopefully you get the **** of it.

Anaerobic exercise can ONLY use glucose for it's metabolism, so yes it DOES burn carbs/glycogen - which is the opposite of what you state above.

Also, it would only be in extreme circumstances an individual catabolizes lean tissue to support this. Most dieters on MFP are not capable of the effort required to actually get into a zero-glycogen state, let-alone continue to exercise after-such to start catabolizing lean tissue.

I do agree the higher the protein the better it will be at preserving muscle mass. But we're looking at a ketogenic diet, not a low carb diet.

Through out your post it seems like you're talking about a non ketogenic diet. About the anerobic pathway, I am thinking along the lines of the creatine phosphate system. Glucose is involved but not directly. As you know if glucose was involved directly we would be able to sprint at our max for a good amount of time 10-20mins, it's just not reality. I was tired, and i don't ike getting to much in to details with people on mfp who posts. I just try to keep it simple. As you know sometimes simplicity leaves things out.

Pu, keto and low carb are essentially the same. When I reference my forms of dieting I'm going almost exclusively from Lyle McDonald's work, but Atkins does put someone in ketosis. Where Atkins (and plenty of other low carb diets) go very wrong, is that many aren't very technical. Many of them don't explain the first "big drop" is a glycogen related fluid shift, and simply go by "eat when you're hungry". Which is partly why some people in general think keto is the "all you can eat bacon diet".

Now with the glygocen storage thing:
Even someone doing a SKD (with no carb ups) is still going to have SOME muscle glycogen, although it's typically lower than the other forms. Whereas a CKD (with carb ups) takes advantage of glycogen supercompensation. Hormonal issues aside, the primary reason for carbups is energy.

It then become something of a catch 22 scenario (regarding keto). If someone is actually cognizant of glycogen and performance, they're also likely to be on a CKD for the same reason. What a person is actually doing is going to dictate what they should be doing diet wise.

Ketogenic diet is determined by the ketone concentration in the blood. Doing a low carb doesn't necessarily mean you will be in ketosis. If you do low carb you can eat a ton of protein which can throw you out of ketosis.

You're right, but the actual amount of protein most people have to eat for that is pretty high. There's people out there that DO bulk on keto with a protein intake of around 2g/lbm.
You said it yourself, someone needs to eat a ton of protein for gluconeogenis to the be primary energy source (and of course both carbs and fats would likely have to be absent as well).
You can be as nit picky as you want with it, but essentially anyone eating low carb is also going to be in ketosis.

Let me see. almost half of all protein gets converted to glucose. For every gram of protein consume 48% of it gets converted to glucose. The brain uses about 100g, so you need more than 100g to not be in ketosis. To consume 102g of glucose assuming you're eating 30g of carbs a day. You need to eat 150g of protein. That's enough to throw you out of ketosis consuming 30g of net carbs.

Your glucose conversion rate is the MAXIMUM, not the norm.
Once someone is keto-adapted the brain's reliance on glucose drops to approximately 25%. Those macros you listed are almost identical to what my daily intake was when I was doing an SKD (150g protein, 30g net carbs) and I had no trouble maintaining ketosis for months at a time.
GNG is a highly inefficient process, and really only utilized in some extreme cases.

here's lyle's own word though:

As long term adaptation to ketosis continues, there are a number of adaptations which
occur to further spare glucose. From the third day of ketosis to three weeks of fasting, the brain
gradually increases its use of ketones for fuel, ultimately deriving up to 75% of its total energy
from ketones (6,26). This shift to using ketones by the brain means that only 40 grams of
glucose per day is required, the remaining 60-75 grams of energy being provided by ketones (26).
This means that less protein must be broken down to produce glucose. Since TG breakdown will
still provide 18 grams of glucose per day, protein breakdown will only be 20 grams per day (see
table 2 on the next page) (6). As stated previously, is appears the primary purpose of ketones in
humans is to provide the brain with a non-glucose, fat-derived fuel for the brain (27,30).

savoiaS1

all Keto is is a calorie restriction in disguise.

Oh really? Is that all it is? Please sir, tell us more!

bro stop while you're way behind. it's a good way for you to lose all your muscle mass.

Let him be. Im usually all for helping someone out but its obvious he has it all figured out and wants to attempt to flame someone who knows 10x the amount he does and actually can back up his knowledge with results.

savoiaS1

Lyle has A LOT OF useful information! Altho EVERYONE seems to only want to read the Ketogenic diet or the rapid fat loss handbook. Nobody wants to read the guide to flexible dieting because EVERYONE wants a quick fix without hard work. Keto works. Its proven. Is it sustainable if you can manage to not go carb crazy before u even reach Ketosis assuming u even get their in the first place? Not for most.

savoiaS1

I will continue to sit at 7 % bodyfat while I eat the same 150-200 carbs a day I eat every time I do a 20 week cut for summer and bust my *kitten* in the gym and follow a flexible diet with proper protein/fats and carbs. I will enjoy my summer. Be able to eat the foods I like in moderation and not have the side effects most get from Keto as well as not blow up to 20% BF by carb binging. Why? Because slow and steady wins the raise. And I understand fat loss is not linear and It takes time.

FunkyTobias

Let me see. almost half of all protein gets converted to glucose. For every gram of protein consume 48% of it gets converted to glucose. The brain uses about 100g, so you need more than 100g to not be in ketosis. To consume 102g of glucose assuming you're eating 30g of carbs a day. You need to eat 150g of protein. That's enough to throw you out of ketosis consuming 30g of net carbs.

I would love to see where you're getting your numbers, because your're simply wrong. Gluconogenesis has been repeatedly been shown to be stable under varying levels of intake.




The fate of amino acids deaminated following protein ingestion is uncertain. Presumably, the majority of the carbon skeletons of the amino acids are converted into glucose in the liver. In the present study, tritiated glucose dilution tracer studies have been used to determine the effect of a protein meal on the glucose appearance rate in plasma. Five normal male subjects ingested 50 g of protein in the form of cottage cheese. The glucose appearance rate was determined using a constant infusion of 3H-glucose, and compared to the glucose appearance rate following the ingestion of just water in the same subjects over an 8-hour period. The total amount of protein deaminated and converted to urea also was quantitated. Urea production could account for the metabolism of 29.3 g of protein ingested, or 58.5%. Glucose appearing in the circulation as a result of amino acid metabolism determined by tracer methodology was 9.68 +/- 5.7 g. Based on the gluconeogenic potential of cottage cheese (42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein), this could only account for at most 43% of protein metabolized, or 23% of the total amount of protein ingested. The fate of the remaining amino acids metabolized remains to be determined.

http://www.jacn.org/content/11/6/701.abstract

How does that even make sense? 42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein then it says what you put in bold.

You missed the key word: potential.

WHat I qouted about the 48% of protein being converted to glucose was from Lyle Mcdonalds book, "The ketogenic diet."

See medic's response above. You're misreading the literature.

medic2038

you're talking about an adapted state. I wouldn't doubt the claims you're making under those conditions. It can also be said that physiological insulin resistance would occur as well.

Cut out all the other stuff, quote box was getting big!

But yeah I mean I was talking about keto adapted individuals the entire time.
Mainly the exception would be (like you pointed out) those just starting AND they're eating a massive amount of protein. That would essentially prohibit them from getting into ketosis in the first place.

However once someone is in ketosis you can up the protein intake significantly and still maintain ketosis (like those I talked about that were bulking on 2g/LBM). Basically your body doesn't want to go through GNG if it doesn't have to.

Although to me bulking on keto doesn't make much sense, as one of the primary benefit is muscle sparing (which people don't usually have to worry about while bulking).

Edit:
You're also right, typically people need to "reverse diet" in some capacity to diminish rebound insulin resistance.

FunkyTobias

Let me see. almost half of all protein gets converted to glucose. For every gram of protein consume 48% of it gets converted to glucose. The brain uses about 100g, so you need more than 100g to not be in ketosis. To consume 102g of glucose assuming you're eating 30g of carbs a day. You need to eat 150g of protein. That's enough to throw you out of ketosis consuming 30g of net carbs.

I would love to see where you're getting your numbers, because your're simply wrong. Gluconogenesis has been repeatedly been shown to be stable under varying levels of intake.




The fate of amino acids deaminated following protein ingestion is uncertain. Presumably, the majority of the carbon skeletons of the amino acids are converted into glucose in the liver. In the present study, tritiated glucose dilution tracer studies have been used to determine the effect of a protein meal on the glucose appearance rate in plasma. Five normal male subjects ingested 50 g of protein in the form of cottage cheese. The glucose appearance rate was determined using a constant infusion of 3H-glucose, and compared to the glucose appearance rate following the ingestion of just water in the same subjects over an 8-hour period. The total amount of protein deaminated and converted to urea also was quantitated. Urea production could account for the metabolism of 29.3 g of protein ingested, or 58.5%. Glucose appearing in the circulation as a result of amino acid metabolism determined by tracer methodology was 9.68 +/- 5.7 g. Based on the gluconeogenic potential of cottage cheese (42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein), this could only account for at most 43% of protein metabolized, or 23% of the total amount of protein ingested. The fate of the remaining amino acids metabolized remains to be determined.

http://www.jacn.org/content/11/6/701.abstract

How does that even make sense? 42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein then it says what you put in bold.

You missed the key word: potential.

WHat I qouted about the 48% of protein being converted to glucose was from Lyle Mcdonalds book, "The ketogenic diet."

See medic's response above. You're misreading the literature.

In that case, what's the point you know? There is a range of possible amount of glucogenic amino acids that will be converted to glucose. If you want to say my number is wrong, your numbers are just as wrong, since it's not set in stone.

What?

Study after study show that the rate of gluconeogenesis is relatively stable, despite the availability of substrate -- so your assertion that consuming 100g of protein will somehow prevent ketosis is blatantly false.

savoiaS1

I will continue to sit at 7 % bodyfat while I eat the same 150-200 carbs a day I eat every time I do a 20 week cut for summer and bust my *kitten* in the gym and follow a flexible diet with proper protein/fats and carbs. I will enjoy my summer. Be able to eat the foods I like in moderation and not have the side effects most get from Keto as well as not blow up to 20% BF by carb binging. Why? Because slow and steady wins the raise. And I understand fat loss is not linear and It takes time.

"slow and steady" implies ketogenic diets are a faster approach to fat loss, they're not. I think you already know that though, stating for the people who think it is.

It is a faster approach for the first few weeks. That is a fact. You will lose more scale weight on keto low carb slow carb whatever low carb diet you use then someone using other forms of dieting initially. After that you are correct. my slow and steady comment to me was meant to imply the tortuiuse (misspelling) and the hare story kinda. I also would like to state after reading a lot of everyone's posts on this topic. WOW you guys are really really really going WAY too far and overthinking things WAY TOO MUCH. I can talk about this stuff all day just like you guys and everyone of my friends and family thinks im some obsessive nazi but man hahah. You guys are even a bit extreme for me lol. Not trying to bash cuz I think its cool reading some of the info here altho some of it i disagree with. But its really not that complicated.

medic2038

Savo, you're right "keto ain't magic", really it's a matter of preference.
I just happen to like it because I'm almost never ever hungry.

savoiaS1

Savo, you're right "keto ain't magic", really it's a matter of preference.
I just happen to like it because I'm almost never ever hungry.

If it works for you great! Some people dont feel hungry in keto. Me personally I want to blow my brains out. There is no magic diet. I just offer my thoughts that Keto is not the healthiest or most sustainable diet. But that doesnt even mean I am correct in that statement. But like everyone else here. I just try to give my thoughts/opinions. Id like to add that Keto does actually do a decent job of retaining muscle mass during a diet. But so does proper training and protein consumption.

DatMurse

Savo, you're right "keto ain't magic", really it's a matter of preference.
I just happen to like it because I'm almost never ever hungry.

If it works for you great! Some people dont feel hungry in keto. Me personally I want to blow my brains out. There is no magic diet. I just offer my thoughts that Keto is not the healthiest or most sustainable diet. But that doesnt even mean I am correct in that statement. But like everyone else here. I just try to give my thoughts/opinions. Id like to add that Keto does actually do a decent job of retaining muscle mass during a diet. But so does proper training and protein consumption.

agreed

Most of these people that use keto only use it to lose weight alone they usually regain the weight because many of them do not even know how to eat properly.

Some bodybuilders or weightlifters will use it as a form of dieting but watching caloric intake and knowing the satiation of foods will always be superior to any fad diet created.

The ketogenic diet is not a sustainable diet for the average person. There are also not too many long term studies over the effect of what it has on the human body.

That being said, ketogenic diet is not a smart diet for the average person

savoiaS1

Savo, you're right "keto ain't magic", really it's a matter of preference.
I just happen to like it because I'm almost never ever hungry.

If it works for you great! Some people dont feel hungry in keto. Me personally I want to blow my brains out. There is no magic diet. I just offer my thoughts that Keto is not the healthiest or most sustainable diet. But that doesnt even mean I am correct in that statement. But like everyone else here. I just try to give my thoughts/opinions. Id like to add that Keto does actually do a decent job of retaining muscle mass during a diet. But so does proper training and protein consumption.

agreed

Most of these people that use keto only use it to lose weight alone they usually regain the weight because many of them do not even know how to eat properly.

Some bodybuilders or weightlifters will use it as a form of dieting but watching caloric intake and knowing the satiation of foods will always be superior to any fad diet created.

The ketogenic diet is not a sustainable diet for the average person. There are also not too many long term studies over the effect of what it has on the human body.

That being said, ketogenic diet is not a smart diet for the average person

Agreed. Too many people feel safe in the thinking that Carbs and an unessential macronutrient so there will never be any effects on cutting them out for significant periods of time. To me this is a pretty bold thought process.

Evy79

bump!