Ketogenic Diet
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That's the kind of talk that drives me CCCRRRAAAAAAAZZZZZYYYYYY.
Do you see any kind of problem with forming an opinion about something that you have no experience with? No, you probably don't, and you'll be in the majority of people in the general forum. :grumble:
LOLLERCOASTER
Do you have to be gay to have an opinion on gay marriage? Do you have to have worked in national government to have an opinion on national politics? Do you have to have fought in a war to have an opinion on war?
Yup, you are always here to imply that personal experience doesn't matter when forming an opinion. You are absolutely hilarious. :laugh:
Yes, to understand something fully, experience is necessary. No, I don't have an opinion on gay marriage because I'm not gay. No I don't understand war because I've never been there. Pretty logical to me to avoid forming strong opinions when I don't know what I'm talking about. But not so for everyone. Too bad.
You're the one that has made the laughable statement that opinions aren't valid unless you have firsthand experience with it. Strong reading comprehension to think I don't think personal experience matters when forming an opinion though0 -
sorry broum, i'm not saying increasing muscle mass encourages fat loss (though it does - just wasn't the point i was making), i'm saying that if you increase muscle mass, you will have a lower body fat by default because your lean body mass will be higher.
clear?
Your concept is backwards, you don't gain muscle to lose body fat.
Tell me how you gain lean muscle mass. Caloric surplus. What happens when you have a caloric surplus with exercise? Muscle and fat gain.
Even if a genie could magically pack on 50 pounds of fat-free muscle mass, I'm still carrying around 57 pounds of fat. You still need a caloric deficit to lose fat.
you can build muscle at a deficit bro. lol you don't understand how any of this actually works.
Steroids, noobs to lifting, coming back after a long lay off from lifting or if you're obese. Otherwise it's unlikely muscle will be built during a deficit
you just gave a lot of scenarios where muscle is build while in a deficit.
if you eat right around your TDEE, eat a high fat diet (so your body gets all its fat needs through diet), and lift heavy, you can build muscle WHILE dropping body fat % simultaneously. this is not because you're lowering the amount of fat in your body, but because you're increasing your LBM, which will offset your body fat %.
it's really simple actually.
I understand what you are trying to say but...
That method is not effective at all due to the fact that you can only gain 1-1.5 lbs a month if you are NOT a seasoned lifter.
People have an association with fat and your body knowing its something bad.
I am sure if you are fat enough that you could probably gain muscle and lose fat at the same time due to the fuel availability your body has.
It would be more efficient to cut down and do a controlled bulk
What you are suggesting is a controlled bulk0 -
sorry broum, i'm not saying increasing muscle mass encourages fat loss (though it does - just wasn't the point i was making), i'm saying that if you increase muscle mass, you will have a lower body fat by default because your lean body mass will be higher.
clear?
Your concept is backwards, you don't gain muscle to lose body fat.
Tell me how you gain lean muscle mass. Caloric surplus. What happens when you have a caloric surplus with exercise? Muscle and fat gain.
Even if a genie could magically pack on 50 pounds of fat-free muscle mass, I'm still carrying around 57 pounds of fat. You still need a caloric deficit to lose fat.
you can build muscle at a deficit bro. lol you don't understand how any of this actually works.
Steroids, noobs to lifting, coming back after a long lay off from lifting or if you're obese. Otherwise it's unlikely muscle will be built during a deficit
you just gave a lot of scenarios where muscle is build while in a deficit.
if you eat right around your TDEE, eat a high fat diet (so your body gets all its fat needs through diet), and lift heavy, you can build muscle WHILE dropping body fat % simultaneously. this is not because you're lowering the amount of fat in your body, but because you're increasing your LBM, which will offset your body fat %.
it's really simple actually.
I understand what you are trying to say but...
That method is not effective at all due to the fact that you can only gain 1-1.5 lbs a month if you are NOT a seasoned lifter.
People have an association with fat and your body knowing its something bad.
I am sure if you are fat enough that you could probably gain muscle and lose fat at the same time due to the fuel availability your body has.
It would be more efficient to cut down and do a controlled bulk
What you are suggesting is a controlled bulk
not effective for what? it all depends what your goals are.
can we at least all agree that a 6'2" man eating 1500 cal/day will never get to 6% body fat?
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can we at least all agree that a 6'2" man eating 1500 cal/day will never get to 6% body fat?
You still have not explained WHY and cited sources!
Here is an excerpt from Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Diet 2.0If your goal is maximal fat loss, these are the days to really cut calories... Cutting this value by 50% is the goal (so if your maintenance is normally 3000 calories/day, you'd cut that to 1500 cal/day). In general, nobody should go below 1200 calories/day as it becomes simply impossible to get enough protein or micronutrients and stay full.
Lyle McDonald is highly respected in the nutrition world, and here he has a publication in which where he suggests eating at 1500 calories.
1500 calorie consumption? Check. Above the "no one should eat less than 1200 calories/day"? Check.
Reconfirmation that you don't know what you're saying? Check0 -
can we at least all agree that a 6'2" man eating 1500 cal/day will never get to 6% body fat?
You still have not explained WHY and cited sources!
Here is an excerpt from Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Diet 2.0If your goal is maximal fat loss, these are the days to really cut calories... Cutting this value by 50% is the goal (so if your maintenance is normally 3000 calories/day, you'd cut that to 1500 cal/day). In general, nobody should go below 1200 calories/day as it becomes simply impossible to get enough protein or micronutrients and stay full.
Lyle McDonald is highly respected in the nutrition world, and here he has a publication in which where he suggests eating at 1500 calories.
1500 calorie consumption? Check. Above the "no one should eat less than 1200 calories/day"? Check.
Reconfirmation that you don't know what you're saying? Check
since you didn't have a link, i'm going to go off what Lyle said.
he said "these are the days to really cut calories"
isn't he referring to someone who's body building and cutting to get to their competition composition? otherwise I feel he would have phrased it differently. context is important.0 -
sorry broum, i'm not saying increasing muscle mass encourages fat loss (though it does - just wasn't the point i was making), i'm saying that if you increase muscle mass, you will have a lower body fat by default because your lean body mass will be higher.
clear?
Your concept is backwards, you don't gain muscle to lose body fat.
Tell me how you gain lean muscle mass. Caloric surplus. What happens when you have a caloric surplus with exercise? Muscle and fat gain.
Even if a genie could magically pack on 50 pounds of fat-free muscle mass, I'm still carrying around 57 pounds of fat. You still need a caloric deficit to lose fat.
you can build muscle at a deficit bro. lol you don't understand how any of this actually works.
Steroids, noobs to lifting, coming back after a long lay off from lifting or if you're obese. Otherwise it's unlikely muscle will be built during a deficit
you just gave a lot of scenarios where muscle is build while in a deficit.
if you eat right around your TDEE, eat a high fat diet (so your body gets all its fat needs through diet), and lift heavy, you can build muscle WHILE dropping body fat % simultaneously. this is not because you're lowering the amount of fat in your body, but because you're increasing your LBM, which will offset your body fat %.
it's really simple actually.
I understand what you are trying to say but...
That method is not effective at all due to the fact that you can only gain 1-1.5 lbs a month if you are NOT a seasoned lifter.
People have an association with fat and your body knowing its something bad.
I am sure if you are fat enough that you could probably gain muscle and lose fat at the same time due to the fuel availability your body has.
It would be more efficient to cut down and do a controlled bulk
What you are suggesting is a controlled bulk
not effective for what? it all depends what your goals are.
can we at least all agree that a 6'2" man eating 1500 cal/day will never get to 6% body fat?
but the deficit that someone goes on is relative to their amount of fat.
Plus 6% is not something people that arent competing should aim for. That cant be sustained for too long and I dont know why anyone would want to be at that bodyfat %. That is straight up contest prep and people who even compete for bodybuilding dont stay there for that long0 -
You gotta own the book (available in eBook or print) http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ultimate-diet-20
And what does it matter what who he is referring to? This book is about cutting down to sub 12% bodyfat levels, beit athletes, bodybuilder, or the average joe.0 -
sorry broum, i'm not saying increasing muscle mass encourages fat loss (though it does - just wasn't the point i was making), i'm saying that if you increase muscle mass, you will have a lower body fat by default because your lean body mass will be higher.
clear?
Your concept is backwards, you don't gain muscle to lose body fat.
Tell me how you gain lean muscle mass. Caloric surplus. What happens when you have a caloric surplus with exercise? Muscle and fat gain.
Even if a genie could magically pack on 50 pounds of fat-free muscle mass, I'm still carrying around 57 pounds of fat. You still need a caloric deficit to lose fat.
you can build muscle at a deficit bro. lol you don't understand how any of this actually works.
Steroids, noobs to lifting, coming back after a long lay off from lifting or if you're obese. Otherwise it's unlikely muscle will be built during a deficit
you just gave a lot of scenarios where muscle is build while in a deficit.
if you eat right around your TDEE, eat a high fat diet (so your body gets all its fat needs through diet), and lift heavy, you can build muscle WHILE dropping body fat % simultaneously. this is not because you're lowering the amount of fat in your body, but because you're increasing your LBM, which will offset your body fat %.
it's really simple actually.
I understand what you are trying to say but...
That method is not effective at all due to the fact that you can only gain 1-1.5 lbs a month if you are NOT a seasoned lifter.
People have an association with fat and your body knowing its something bad.
I am sure if you are fat enough that you could probably gain muscle and lose fat at the same time due to the fuel availability your body has.
It would be more efficient to cut down and do a controlled bulk
What you are suggesting is a controlled bulk
not effective for what? it all depends what your goals are.
can we at least all agree that a 6'2" man eating 1500 cal/day will never get to 6% body fat?
but the deficit that someone goes on is relative to their amount of fat.
Plus 6% is not something people that arent competing should aim for. That cant be sustained for too long and I dont know why anyone would want to be at that bodyfat %. That is straight up contest prep and people who even compete for bodybuilding dont stay there for that long
then talk to this guy who's defending his 1500 cal to the death. :laugh:
Jay, for right now 1500 will work for you in the short term because you're obese. As you lose weight and get more fit, it will stop working for you. Obviously you don't believe me and the rest of those who believe in thermodynamics, but you'll figure it out at some point.0 -
6% is not a realistic goal to be at if you arent going to compete
Now remember these are people with decent muscle at the lower %. Sorry Jay but you look like you are skinny fat based off of your pictures and you will be cutting down to a stick0 -
You gotta own the book (available in eBook or print) http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ultimate-diet-20
And what does it matter what who he is referring to? This book is about cutting down to sub 12% bodyfat levels, beit athletes, bodybuilder, or the average joe.
haha there are incredibly different nutritional needs for someone who's 10% body fat to drop to 8% vs someone who's 30% body fat to drop to 20% because the obese person's body will burn fat stores for energy, while the fit person's body will burn MUSCLE for energy in order to protect the small amount of fat stores!
one size does not fit all.0 -
You gotta own the book (available in eBook or print) http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ultimate-diet-20
And what does it matter what who he is referring to? This book is about cutting down to sub 12% bodyfat levels, beit athletes, bodybuilder, or the average joe.
You clearly haven't read it.Please note: the UD2 is an advanced diet for advanced dieters and is only for those seeking very low levels of body fat. A male should be at 12-15% body fat or lower and females at 21-24% body fat or lower prior to considering the UD2. As well trainees must have at least 6 months of consistent training in the weight room under their belt before they even consider the UD2.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ultimate-diet-200 -
You gotta own the book (available in eBook or print) http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ultimate-diet-20
And what does it matter what who he is referring to? This book is about cutting down to sub 12% bodyfat levels, beit athletes, bodybuilder, or the average joe.
You clearly haven't read it.Please note: the UD2 is an advanced diet for advanced dieters and is only for those seeking very low levels of body fat. A male should be at 12-15% body fat or lower and females at 21-24% body fat or lower prior to considering the UD2. As well trainees must have at least 6 months of consistent training in the weight room under their belt before they even consider the UD2.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/ultimate-diet-20
ouch.0 -
I never said I was following the book.
I cited the 1500 calorie/day to prove Reddy, who claimed one should never go below BMR, that it's fine to go below BMR.
Reddy said 2 things:
Never go below BMR.
Can't reach 6% BF eating below BMR.
Neither of which has he backed up with fact. Which he's constantly skirting.
Editing to add:
So when I do reach 12% bodyfat, I (may) follow McDonald's dieting/training routine. frankly, I'm more intrigued by LeanGain's/IF simplistic approach and most likely will do that.0 -
I never said I was following the book.
I cited the 1500 calorie/day to prove Reddy, who claimed one should never go below BMR, that it's fine to go below BMR.
Reddy said 2 things:
Never go below BMR.
Can't reach 6% BF eating below BMR.
Neither of which has he backed up with fact. Which he's constantly skirting.
i said you can go below your BMR initially if you're obese and looking to lose fast, but you will plateau and need to start eating above your BMR to continue your progress.0 -
Wow this thread is way to overly opinionated when it just consists of a diet. I studied Keto for a bit before I decided to try it for good and by study I mean I spoke to those at my gym before I started going to Google and checking out forums. My body is a Mesomorph so I have no problems gaining muscle and keeping tone with little to no effort. I'm 36 years old and back in the 90's I worked out for long periods of times and had 6% or less of body fat. I was not educated in what I was doing and did not have a very solid source to turn to other than the gym rats who would tell me, drink liquid amino's or go to GNC and buy half the shelf of everything.
I took my experience over the years and looked at my eating patterns and amount I worked out versus how active I was outside of the gym. The Keto diet had a clarity to it that works and makes the most sense to me but unfortunately not to others. I read about people getting sick and having bad symptoms and then feeling fine. I have yet to experience any sickness at all and in fact have felt fine if not better since lowering my carbs to the level it is.
I used the cavemanketo.com to configure MFP to 5% carbs (24g) and I typically abide by that except on days I decide to cycle. And my story is that I started at 235lbs around April 8th and now I am 225lbs and steady losing weight. I am not always under 24g of carb for my daily value and also I am not on a specific workout schedule. My caloric intake is 1940 and all other settings are the same according to the cavemanketo website.
The reason I bring this up is because it works. I do not workout enough to lose this weight off the limited calories alone. And four mile walks occasionally with the girlfriend hardly constitutes as a suspect. So I can only assume through the ketostix I use that my body is acting in accordance to the medically proven data that has been made public about this diet. Say what you will about how bad you might think this diet is, I find it works for my body just fine.
And my picture(s) are of this past summer and I was eating WELL above what any diet would recommend. i would walk 2 miles to the gym with a 50lb rucksack, workout for an hour doing heavy lifting. I would bench two 90lb dumbbells 3 sets and do unassisted body dips, chin-ups, pull-ups. This was effort was 2 years to shed only 30 pounds without any diet plan. I have seen more progress in the few weeks on Keto than the 2 years I spent and the many years before that working out and eating recklessly.0 -
I never said I was following the book.
I cited the 1500 calorie/day to prove Reddy, who claimed one should never go below BMR, that it's fine to go below BMR.
Reddy said 2 things:
Never go below BMR.
Can't reach 6% BF eating below BMR.
Neither of which has he backed up with fact. Which he's constantly skirting.
Editing to add:
So when I do reach 12% bodyfat, I (may) follow McDonald's dieting/training routine.
you are changing it now.
you said it applies to the average joe when it doesnt.
Stop citing things you dont know what you are talking about. now you are just looking like a moron. Since Tobias actually read the book you have nothing to cite off of.
You cant do it because you are still average and you dont look like you have much experience under your belt0 -
I did this and lost weight very fast however put back on a few pounds. The Atkins and South Beach diet is sort of based on this method and I still strive to keep my carbs/sugar intake low by following the South Beach diet menu of phase 1 food. If you can overcome the sugar cravings it will definitely help take off the pounds.0
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Wow this thread is way to overly opinionated when it just consists of a diet. I studied Keto for a bit before I decided to try it for good and by study I mean I spoke to those at my gym before I started going to Google and checking out forums. My body is a Mesomorph so I have no problems gaining muscle and keeping tone with little to no effort. I'm 36 years old and back in the 90's I worked out for long periods of times and had 6% or less of body fat. I was not educated in what I was doing and did not have a very solid source to turn to other than the gym rats who would tell me, drink liquid amino's or go to GNC and buy half the shelf of everything.
I took my experience over the years and looked at my eating patterns and amount I worked out versus how active I was outside of the gym. The Keto diet had a clarity to it that works and makes the most sense to me but unfortunately not to others. I read about people getting sick and having bad symptoms and then feeling fine. I have yet to experience any sickness at all and in fact have felt fine if not better since lowering my carbs to the level it is.
I used the cavemanketo.com to configure MFP to 5% carbs (24g) and I typically abide by that except on days I decide to cycle. And my story is that I started at 235lbs around April 8th and now I am 225lbs and steady losing weight. I am not always under 24g of carb for my daily value and also I am not on a specific workout schedule. My caloric intake is 1940 and all other settings are the same according to the cavemanketo website.
The reason I bring this up is because it works. I do not workout enough to lose this weight off the limited calories alone. And four mile walks occasionally with the girlfriend hardly constitutes as a suspect. So I can only assume through the ketostix I use that my body is acting in accordance to the medically proven data that has been made public about this diet. Say what you will about how bad you might think this diet is, I find it works for my body just fine.
Four miles walking probably burns as many calories (or more) than a weight training session.And my picture(s) are of this past summer and I was eating WELL above what any diet would recommend. i would walk 2 miles to the gym with a 50lb rucksack, workout for an hour doing heavy lifting. I would bench two 90lb dumbbells 3 sets and do unassisted body dips, chin-ups, pull-ups. This was effort was 2 years to shed only 30 pounds without any diet plan. I have seen more progress in the few weeks on Keto than the 2 years I spent and the many years before that working out and eating recklessly.
So you lost more weight by being mindful of your diet than you did when you were eating recklessly? Amazing.
BTW: Nobody is saying that low-carb diets don't work. They can (for some) be an effective way of achieving a caloric deficit. Ketosis is irrelevant.0 -
you are changing it now.
you said it applies to the average joe when it doesnt.
Stop citing things you dont know what you are talking about. now you are just looking like a moron. Since Tobias actually read the book you have nothing to cite off of.
You cant do it because you are still average and you dont look like you have much experience under your belt
The book applies to the following:
Bodybuilders
Athletes
The average joe (at 12-15% BF) looking to get to single digit limits
You sure Tobias read the book? That citation he quoted is right on the webpage I linked to.
It's to the individual person to judge whether I know or don't know what I'm talking about (that whole eye-of-the-beholder thing). But I'm actually putting up sources so people can judge for themselves!0 -
you are changing it now.
you said it applies to the average joe when it doesnt.
Stop citing things you dont know what you are talking about. now you are just looking like a moron. Since Tobias actually read the book you have nothing to cite off of.
You cant do it because you are still average and you dont look like you have much experience under your belt
The book applies to the following:
Bodybuilders
Athletes
The average joe (at 12-15% BF) looking to get to single digit limits
You sure Tobias read the book? That citation he quoted is right on the webpage I linked to.
It's to the individual person to judge whether I know or don't know what I'm talking about (that whole eye-of-the-beholder thing). But I'm actually putting up sources so people can judge for themselves!
you're not at 12-15% body fat.0
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