Ketogenic Diet

DatMurse

Give me links that prove your theory.

Until then, your statements have no validity.

But for entertainment's sake,

What's your "recommended" calorie consumption for a 168 pound (LBM) 27 year old male who stands 6"2" tall? 10 hour desk job, ~30 minutes of exercise 4 days a week (12 minutes cardio the rest being bodyweight calensetics).

i'd suggest you start lifting heavy first off.

secondly, what are your goals at this point? drop weight? fat? both? what's your current body fat? and what's your TOTAL weight? not just LBM.

i'm a firm believer in the TDEE - 20% (or your BMR, whichever comes first) and that's what i'd recommend. for you that would mean 1800/day.

personally I also don't dig the bulk/cut philosophy. I maintain that if you eat your TDEE, and up your fat intake, you can actually shed body fat without losing muscle mass. it's a slower process, but much more sustainable.

check this out: http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/weight-loss/truth-starvation-mode/page/1

lots of citations and great info.

i think you mean the reverse of that.

but nah, i'm good.

Why not? You just said I could never get to 6% with that method. You were positive enough to say so, so make the bet. Unless you have that scratch in the back of your mind that says, "maybe this guy knows what's going on".

How about a $1 bet, like the movie Trading Spaces?

nah i just think internet bets are a little silly.

by eating below your BMR for an extended period of time, your body will actually first turn to burning muscle for fuel, rather than fat, because fat is the more essential nutrient for maintaining life-supporting functions

thus... impossible to get to 6% bf in that state.

I very disagree in burning fat because you are going below bmr. There is no evidence that going below bmr will increase muscle loss.

However that guy's post doesnt completely match his citations or even what lyle was saying.
Fuel that is used by the body is relative to the availability of it and need for the body to keep it.


If you are obese, you could have a much lower protein intake and still retain mass and strength vs a lean person.
a 250 lb man can eat 1500 calories a day and lose weight rapidly. still maintaining strength and muscle
a 200 lb person consuming 1500 calories a day can be experiencing slower weight loss and more muscle and strength loss.

Another thing in regards to the studies is that they are not interpreted properly and talking about a trained individual.

1. those arent people who lift
2. they did not talk about adequate protein intake
The starvation definition he got was from netwellness.org

the problem when people cite websites those arent studies.

making citations of a website is no better than citing something from a blog.
It needs to be a legit study.

skyestevenson00

just made a DELICIOUS protein chocolate mug cake!
It was so so chocolatey and gooey... Low fat, low carb and high protein!! Thought I would share the recipe!

1 scoop of choc protein powder (I used my protein double chocolate)
Tbsp of good cocoa powder
1/4tsp of baking soda
1tsp on sweetener
1 egg white
2tbsp of milk/almond milk etc
Pinch of salt
1tbsp of peanut butter (optional)

Mix all dry ingredients together until not lumpy
Then add milk and egg white
Mix together until smooth
Add 1tbsp of peanut butter if using to the middle of mixture
And push down so it's sat in the centre.

Microwave for about 40 secs - 1 minute depending how gooey you want it!

ENJOY!!! So delicious!! Can't believe it's guilt free!

Nutrition: (with peanut butter)
Calories: 243
Fat: 10.5g
Sat fat: 2g
Carbs: 9.4
Protein: 23.9

Fat and calories will obviously be lower if you don't use peanut butter! It doesn't need it it's just a nice extra

ENJOY!!
x

FrankieTrailBlazer

Long Term Consequences for Ketogenic Diet considered by followers?

QUOTE
As a physician, a big fan of Jimmy’s and a fan of many aspects of paleo eating in general, I would say I am not a fan of a ketogenic diet and do not recommend it to anyone as a long term eating plan, except in certain neurological disorders, certain types of cancer and some other very specific disease states. The confusing thing about this diet is that it appears quite beneficial on the surface. Jimmy, for example, is losing weight. In all likelihood, his insulin levels are decreasing and I’m sure his cholesterol panel is looking better and better. That’s great right? Well, there’s no argument that these things commonly happen on a ketogenic diet. But does that mean there is nothing bad happening? Unfortunately, no. Here are some examples of studies and info that have looked “behind the curtain” of seemingly positive effects in the ketogenic diet, to reveal some negatives, some of which would outweigh the positives in my opinion:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21454445
http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/keto_news_november07
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20820038
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8589783
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17904939

Should a truly healthful diet that is truly biologically appropriate for humans have side effects? I don’t believe so.

I also become very, very concerned with people on long term ketogenic diets because of the lack of cancer protective nutrients that can only be found in plants and fruits. Jimmy’s breakfast and all of the menus listed in your article are perfect examples. Nearly zero phytonutrients.

Lastly, I also get very concerned especially with Jimmy’s version of the diet, when I consider the significant load of toxins that will inevitably be present in a menu plan like this. Animal fats bioaccumulate environmental toxins and become significant sources of these things for you if you eat this way. Combine with the severe lack of phytonutrients known to help stimulate detoxification and/or protect our DNA against damage from these toxins and you have a recipe for cancer.

I’m sorry to be such a downer as I know eating this way appears to be helpful to many, but it is NOT the only way to lose weight, and certainly not the safest.
UNQUOTE
( Dr. Daniel Chong on http://www.paleoplan.com/2012/09-24/what-does-a-ketogenic-paleo-diet-look-like/ )

neanderthin

Long Term Consequences for Ketogenic Diet considered by followers?

QUOTE
As a physician, a big fan of Jimmy’s and a fan of many aspects of paleo eating in general, I would say I am not a fan of a ketogenic diet and do not recommend it to anyone as a long term eating plan, except in certain neurological disorders, certain types of cancer and some other very specific disease states. The confusing thing about this diet is that it appears quite beneficial on the surface. Jimmy, for example, is losing weight. In all likelihood, his insulin levels are decreasing and I’m sure his cholesterol panel is looking better and better. That’s great right? Well, there’s no argument that these things commonly happen on a ketogenic diet. But does that mean there is nothing bad happening? Unfortunately, no. Here are some examples of studies and info that have looked “behind the curtain” of seemingly positive effects in the ketogenic diet, to reveal some negatives, some of which would outweigh the positives in my opinion:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21454445
http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/keto_news_november07
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20820038
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8589783
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17904939

Should a truly healthful diet that is truly biologically appropriate for humans have side effects? I don’t believe so.

I also become very, very concerned with people on long term ketogenic diets because of the lack of cancer protective nutrients that can only be found in plants and fruits. Jimmy’s breakfast and all of the menus listed in your article are perfect examples. Nearly zero phytonutrients.

Lastly, I also get very concerned especially with Jimmy’s version of the diet, when I consider the significant load of toxins that will inevitably be present in a menu plan like this. Animal fats bioaccumulate environmental toxins and become significant sources of these things for you if you eat this way. Combine with the severe lack of phytonutrients known to help stimulate detoxification and/or protect our DNA against damage from these toxins and you have a recipe for cancer.

I’m sorry to be such a downer as I know eating this way appears to be helpful to many, but it is NOT the only way to lose weight, and certainly not the safest.
UNQUOTE
( Dr. Daniel Chong on http://www.paleoplan.com/2012/09-24/what-does-a-ketogenic-paleo-diet-look-like/ )

Well, first of all the physician is biased and looking at his study references confirms that.

The first study is on mice, nuff said.

The second study is the side effect for treating epilepsy, which this diet is a champion of. Side effects were constipation, lack of weight gain and acidosis.....well, the first two are easy to fix and acidosis is a concern if a person has diabetes 1 where the patient's pancreas doesn't produce insulin, but being in ketosis does causes acidosis.

The third study didn't even mention ketosis and it compared a low carb animal based diet with a low carb plant based diet. They followed these people for 26 years and asked them questions a few times during this time compiled data on deaths and came to the conclusion that the plant based diet edged out the animal based diet marginally, very scientific, especially for the authors conviction that ketosis is bad.....really stretching considering ketosis wasn't even mentioned.

The fourth study is about the cognitive effects and did 1 neuropsychological test and after one week confirmed that it was impeded by ketosis......is that long term consequences, no, brain fog as it's termed goes away after an induction period which can be up to 20 or 30 days and the opposite effect quite often, but not necessarily for everyone, nevertheless.

The fifth one was less energy available after 2 weeks of a ketogenic diet when compared to another low carb diet, but not ketogenic........during the adaption phase seems to be a popular study bias. Anyway basically they said that a ketogenic diet when calories were 30% less than maintenance enhances fatigue more so than another low carb diet, but they never said what that was.......wonderfully controlled.

Pretty shabby evidence considering he's a Doctor and should know better....but when someones bias and that included me that sometimes our bullterd meter malfunctions. Personally if I put this to paper on the WWW for everyone to see I'd be embarrassed.

OkieTink

Lastly, I also get very concerned especially with Jimmy’s version of the diet, when I consider the significant load of toxins that will inevitably be present in a menu plan like this. Animal fats bioaccumulate environmental toxins and become significant sources of these things for you if you eat this way. Combine with the severe lack of phytonutrients known to help stimulate detoxification and/or protect our DNA against damage from these toxins and you have a recipe for cancer.

Years ago I followed a very clean Zone type diet, which was loaded with low GI fruits and veggies, I was diagnosed with cancer. Go figure.

LolBroScience

Because diet is the only contributing factor to such illnesses?

KatieHall77

Another medical benefit is that it helps keep allergies under control- Perhaps it is the lack of grains in the diet such as wheat/gluten, but it has helped me not only drop some weight but makes me feel more energetic and breathe easier.

A "ketogenic diet" is simply one marked by the presence of ketones in the bloodstream, and usually urine.

It is characterized by low-carbohydrate, and from a medical/weight-loss standpoint is usually a ratio of UNDER 10% calories from carbohydrate, MORE THAN 65% calories from fat, and moderate protein.

To actually enter ketosis many experts recommend a ratio of 5% carbohydrate, 75% fat and 20% protein, and this works extremely well for most people. As a 'general guideline' that's typically around 20-30g of carbohydrate per day depending on the person.

The benefits of a ketogenic diet come for ANYONE with epilepsy (helps control seizures), diabetes (regardless of Type 1 or 2, it dramatically lowers and controls blood glucose) as well as for anyone with any insulin-resistance as a result of PCOS, metabolic-syndrome, pre-diabetes, Hashimoto's thyroiditis or being morbidly obese.

The benefits for fat-loss come once a person becomes keto-adapted. Being keto-adapted means you've undergone a metabolic 'shift' that changes you from primarily utilizing glucose (to fuel cellular respiration) to utilizing fatty-acids and ketones for cellular respiration. IE: the shift changes you from burning carbohydrates to burning body-fat/ketones.

To become fully keto-adaptated can take a little while... I won't go into the full details, you can read more here: http://www.ketotic.org/2012/05/keto-adaptation-what-it-is-and-how-to.html ... scroll down to the section heading "What exactly happens during keto-adaptation?" to read up on it more.

If you've got questions, feel free to message and/or friend me.

BTW many suggest it's "not sustainable", yet I've been ketogenic for about 2 1/2 years now myself, and I personally know people who've been ketogenic since 1999.

Acg67

Lastly, I also get very concerned especially with Jimmy’s version of the diet, when I consider the significant load of toxins that will inevitably be present in a menu plan like this. Animal fats bioaccumulate environmental toxins and become significant sources of these things for you if you eat this way. Combine with the severe lack of phytonutrients known to help stimulate detoxification and/or protect our DNA against damage from these toxins and you have a recipe for cancer.

Years ago I followed a very clean Zone type diet, which was loaded with low GI fruits and veggies, I was diagnosed with cancer. Go figure.

OkieTink

Because diet is the only contributing factor to such illnesses?

Of course not. What I quoted said the lack of phytonutrients was a recipe for cancer. I just take "medical studies" with a grain of salt nowadays because of the fact I thought I was doing everything "right" with my diet/health and still got cancer. I honestly chalk it up to **** happens. Or maybe I really didn't eat enough broccoli

Thorbjornn

Ketogenic diets are not necessary for weight loss. Caloric deficit is.

That's too simplistic and nothing more than internet broscience.

Acg67

Ketogenic diets are not necessary for weight loss. Caloric deficit is.

That's too simplistic and nothing more than internet broscience.

Lolololol, calorie deficits being required for weightloss is broscience?

CoachReddy

Ketogenic diets are not necessary for weight loss. Caloric deficit is.

That's too simplistic and nothing more than internet broscience.

It's actually that simple. Even in keto you're eating a deficit if you're looking to lose weight. Keto is unnecessary unless you have a diagnosed metabolic disorder.

CoachReddy

Lastly, I also get very concerned especially with Jimmy’s version of the diet, when I consider the significant load of toxins that will inevitably be present in a menu plan like this. Animal fats bioaccumulate environmental toxins and become significant sources of these things for you if you eat this way. Combine with the severe lack of phytonutrients known to help stimulate detoxification and/or protect our DNA against damage from these toxins and you have a recipe for cancer.

Years ago I followed a very clean Zone type diet, which was loaded with low GI fruits and veggies, I was diagnosed with cancer. Go figure.

since I can't have us agreeing too much, I actually find it funny you posted this, because immediately following my pizza day experiment on friday and eating really crappy (for me) over the weekend (lots of refined /processed stuff), I woke up monday with a sinus infection, tons of mucus, etc.

coincidence? maybe.

also maybe not. I've been wondering if I have a candida issue stemming from my use of reflux meds, and since candida thrive on sugar, the plethora of refined carbs over that three day period actually could have caused this, oddly enough.

OkieTink

Ketogenic diets are not necessary for weight loss. Caloric deficit is.

That's too simplistic and nothing more than internet broscience.

Surely you're being facetious.

DatMurse

Ketogenic diets are not necessary for weight loss. Caloric deficit is.

That's too simplistic and nothing more than internet broscience.

i hope this guy is kidding.

twilasue54

i gotta admit when i was first told about this i had my reservations as we are always taught that fat is "bad"

Yea, had a hard time wrapping my brain around using butter and whatnot when cooking but the chocolate/peanut butter fat bomb I just ate was *heavenly*

recipe fot the fat bomb please!

Thorbjornn

Ketogenic diets are not necessary for weight loss. Caloric deficit is.

That's too simplistic and nothing more than internet broscience.

i hope this guy is kidding.

I'm dead serious. I'd never joke about that. Consider people who are insulin resistant and hypothyroid. No matter how few calories they take in, they will not lose weight. Insulin resistance means the cells don't "open" to receive glucose, therefore it is stored as fat. Endocrinology 101.

Thorbjornn

Ketogenic diets are not necessary for weight loss. Caloric deficit is.

That's too simplistic and nothing more than internet broscience.

Surely you're being facetious.

Who, me or him? I don't believe it's a simple matter of calories in v. calories out, at least not in all cases. For most people yes, for a lot of people, no. That calories in v. calories out meme has been circulating on the internet since time immemorial.

Thorbjornn

Keto is unnecessary unless you have a diagnosed metabolic disorder.

Hello! McFly!

Thorbjornn

Lolololol, calorie deficits being required for weightloss is broscience?

To apply it across the board as you are doing is broscience, yes.