Ketogenic Diet
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I will continue to sit at 7 % bodyfat while I eat the same 150-200 carbs a day I eat every time I do a 20 week cut for summer and bust my *kitten* in the gym and follow a flexible diet with proper protein/fats and carbs. I will enjoy my summer. Be able to eat the foods I like in moderation and not have the side effects most get from Keto as well as not blow up to 20% BF by carb binging. Why? Because slow and steady wins the raise. And I understand fat loss is not linear and It takes time.0
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Let me see. almost half of all protein gets converted to glucose. For every gram of protein consume 48% of it gets converted to glucose. The brain uses about 100g, so you need more than 100g to not be in ketosis. To consume 102g of glucose assuming you're eating 30g of carbs a day. You need to eat 150g of protein. That's enough to throw you out of ketosis consuming 30g of net carbs.
I would love to see where you're getting your numbers, because your're simply wrong. Gluconogenesis has been repeatedly been shown to be stable under varying levels of intake.
The fate of amino acids deaminated following protein ingestion is uncertain. Presumably, the majority of the carbon skeletons of the amino acids are converted into glucose in the liver. In the present study, tritiated glucose dilution tracer studies have been used to determine the effect of a protein meal on the glucose appearance rate in plasma. Five normal male subjects ingested 50 g of protein in the form of cottage cheese. The glucose appearance rate was determined using a constant infusion of 3H-glucose, and compared to the glucose appearance rate following the ingestion of just water in the same subjects over an 8-hour period. The total amount of protein deaminated and converted to urea also was quantitated. Urea production could account for the metabolism of 29.3 g of protein ingested, or 58.5%. Glucose appearing in the circulation as a result of amino acid metabolism determined by tracer methodology was 9.68 +/- 5.7 g. Based on the gluconeogenic potential of cottage cheese (42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein), this could only account for at most 43% of protein metabolized, or 23% of the total amount of protein ingested. The fate of the remaining amino acids metabolized remains to be determined.
http://www.jacn.org/content/11/6/701.abstract
How does that even make sense? 42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein then it says what you put in bold.
You missed the key word: potential.WHat I qouted about the 48% of protein being converted to glucose was from Lyle Mcdonalds book, "The ketogenic diet."
See medic's response above. You're misreading the literature.0 -
you're talking about an adapted state. I wouldn't doubt the claims you're making under those conditions. It can also be said that physiological insulin resistance would occur as well.
Cut out all the other stuff, quote box was getting big!
But yeah I mean I was talking about keto adapted individuals the entire time.
Mainly the exception would be (like you pointed out) those just starting AND they're eating a massive amount of protein. That would essentially prohibit them from getting into ketosis in the first place.
However once someone is in ketosis you can up the protein intake significantly and still maintain ketosis (like those I talked about that were bulking on 2g/LBM). Basically your body doesn't want to go through GNG if it doesn't have to.
Although to me bulking on keto doesn't make much sense, as one of the primary benefit is muscle sparing (which people don't usually have to worry about while bulking).
Edit:
You're also right, typically people need to "reverse diet" in some capacity to diminish rebound insulin resistance.0 -
Let me see. almost half of all protein gets converted to glucose. For every gram of protein consume 48% of it gets converted to glucose. The brain uses about 100g, so you need more than 100g to not be in ketosis. To consume 102g of glucose assuming you're eating 30g of carbs a day. You need to eat 150g of protein. That's enough to throw you out of ketosis consuming 30g of net carbs.
I would love to see where you're getting your numbers, because your're simply wrong. Gluconogenesis has been repeatedly been shown to be stable under varying levels of intake.
The fate of amino acids deaminated following protein ingestion is uncertain. Presumably, the majority of the carbon skeletons of the amino acids are converted into glucose in the liver. In the present study, tritiated glucose dilution tracer studies have been used to determine the effect of a protein meal on the glucose appearance rate in plasma. Five normal male subjects ingested 50 g of protein in the form of cottage cheese. The glucose appearance rate was determined using a constant infusion of 3H-glucose, and compared to the glucose appearance rate following the ingestion of just water in the same subjects over an 8-hour period. The total amount of protein deaminated and converted to urea also was quantitated. Urea production could account for the metabolism of 29.3 g of protein ingested, or 58.5%. Glucose appearing in the circulation as a result of amino acid metabolism determined by tracer methodology was 9.68 +/- 5.7 g. Based on the gluconeogenic potential of cottage cheese (42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein), this could only account for at most 43% of protein metabolized, or 23% of the total amount of protein ingested. The fate of the remaining amino acids metabolized remains to be determined.
http://www.jacn.org/content/11/6/701.abstract
How does that even make sense? 42.3 g of glucose from 50 g of cottage cheese protein then it says what you put in bold.
You missed the key word: potential.WHat I qouted about the 48% of protein being converted to glucose was from Lyle Mcdonalds book, "The ketogenic diet."
See medic's response above. You're misreading the literature.
In that case, what's the point you know? There is a range of possible amount of glucogenic amino acids that will be converted to glucose. If you want to say my number is wrong, your numbers are just as wrong, since it's not set in stone.
What?
Study after study show that the rate of gluconeogenesis is relatively stable, despite the availability of substrate -- so your assertion that consuming 100g of protein will somehow prevent ketosis is blatantly false.0 -
I will continue to sit at 7 % bodyfat while I eat the same 150-200 carbs a day I eat every time I do a 20 week cut for summer and bust my *kitten* in the gym and follow a flexible diet with proper protein/fats and carbs. I will enjoy my summer. Be able to eat the foods I like in moderation and not have the side effects most get from Keto as well as not blow up to 20% BF by carb binging. Why? Because slow and steady wins the raise. And I understand fat loss is not linear and It takes time.
"slow and steady" implies ketogenic diets are a faster approach to fat loss, they're not. I think you already know that though, stating for the people who think it is.
It is a faster approach for the first few weeks. That is a fact. You will lose more scale weight on keto low carb slow carb whatever low carb diet you use then someone using other forms of dieting initially. After that you are correct. my slow and steady comment to me was meant to imply the tortuiuse (misspelling) and the hare story kinda. I also would like to state after reading a lot of everyone's posts on this topic. WOW you guys are really really really going WAY too far and overthinking things WAY TOO MUCH. I can talk about this stuff all day just like you guys and everyone of my friends and family thinks im some obsessive nazi but man hahah. You guys are even a bit extreme for me lol. Not trying to bash cuz I think its cool reading some of the info here altho some of it i disagree with. But its really not that complicated.0 -
Savo, you're right "keto ain't magic", really it's a matter of preference.
I just happen to like it because I'm almost never ever hungry.0 -
Savo, you're right "keto ain't magic", really it's a matter of preference.
I just happen to like it because I'm almost never ever hungry.
If it works for you great! Some people dont feel hungry in keto. Me personally I want to blow my brains out. There is no magic diet. I just offer my thoughts that Keto is not the healthiest or most sustainable diet. But that doesnt even mean I am correct in that statement. But like everyone else here. I just try to give my thoughts/opinions. Id like to add that Keto does actually do a decent job of retaining muscle mass during a diet. But so does proper training and protein consumption.0 -
agreedSavo, you're right "keto ain't magic", really it's a matter of preference.
I just happen to like it because I'm almost never ever hungry.
If it works for you great! Some people dont feel hungry in keto. Me personally I want to blow my brains out. There is no magic diet. I just offer my thoughts that Keto is not the healthiest or most sustainable diet. But that doesnt even mean I am correct in that statement. But like everyone else here. I just try to give my thoughts/opinions. Id like to add that Keto does actually do a decent job of retaining muscle mass during a diet. But so does proper training and protein consumption.
Most of these people that use keto only use it to lose weight alone they usually regain the weight because many of them do not even know how to eat properly.
Some bodybuilders or weightlifters will use it as a form of dieting but watching caloric intake and knowing the satiation of foods will always be superior to any fad diet created.
The ketogenic diet is not a sustainable diet for the average person. There are also not too many long term studies over the effect of what it has on the human body.
That being said, ketogenic diet is not a smart diet for the average person0 -
agreedSavo, you're right "keto ain't magic", really it's a matter of preference.
I just happen to like it because I'm almost never ever hungry.
If it works for you great! Some people dont feel hungry in keto. Me personally I want to blow my brains out. There is no magic diet. I just offer my thoughts that Keto is not the healthiest or most sustainable diet. But that doesnt even mean I am correct in that statement. But like everyone else here. I just try to give my thoughts/opinions. Id like to add that Keto does actually do a decent job of retaining muscle mass during a diet. But so does proper training and protein consumption.
Most of these people that use keto only use it to lose weight alone they usually regain the weight because many of them do not even know how to eat properly.
Some bodybuilders or weightlifters will use it as a form of dieting but watching caloric intake and knowing the satiation of foods will always be superior to any fad diet created.
The ketogenic diet is not a sustainable diet for the average person. There are also not too many long term studies over the effect of what it has on the human body.
That being said, ketogenic diet is not a smart diet for the average person
Agreed. Too many people feel safe in the thinking that Carbs and an unessential macronutrient so there will never be any effects on cutting them out for significant periods of time. To me this is a pretty bold thought process.0 -
bump!0
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Bookmarked..I have Hashimoto's and am considered morbidly obese, gonna look into this maybe lol!0
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Bookmarked..I have Hashimoto's and am considered morbidly obese, gonna look into this maybe lol!
If you're implying that hasimoto is what caused you to be obese, no. I know a few people with the disease and they're pretty lean.
Ummm...I wasn't implying that whatsoever, first off, I was curious about this because of this comment by Albertabeefy or w/e his name is, this was his quote:The benefits of a ketogenic diet come for ANYONE with epilepsy (helps control seizures), diabetes (regardless of Type 1 or 2, it dramatically lowers and controls blood glucose) as well as for anyone with any insulin-resistance as a result of PCOS, metabolic-syndrome, pre-diabetes, Hashimoto's thyroiditis or being morbidly obese.
I am on thyroid replacement hormones, and I am considered within normal range for now (although that always changes), so I know that when my thyroid hormones are within the acceptable range, there is no issue with weight gain and I can lose weight or maintain like everyone else...is this what YOU implied that I might not understand?, honestly you really made me feel embarrassed by your quote, so NO I'm not another fatty trying to make excuses derp a derp...just read some of this thread quickly and bookmarked this so that I could inform myself when I had the time and see if this would be more beneficial vs the traditional calorie counting I've SUCCESSFULLY been doing..
Actually after re-reading your comment, you are kinda wrong, someone with Hashimoto's could definitely become morbidly obese if not diagnosed, or not taking the hormone replacement...only someone being successfully treated for Hashimoto's Thyroiditis can achieve and easily maintain a normal weight (like anyone else)..anywhoo...not what I was talking about in the first place..0 -
For many, bulking on keto can be difficult, especially those who are ketogenic to deal with insulin-resistance.... Although to me bulking on keto doesn't make much sense, as one of the primary benefit is muscle sparing (which people don't usually have to worry about while bulking).
Many who are insulin-resistant have some impairment with pancreatic beta-cell function, and often these individuals produce lower than normal insulin levels compared to someone without this metabolic condition.
In my case, it's almost total impairment, and i produce VERY little insulin naturally. (Without being ketogenic I'd have to inject both basal and bolus insulin to keep good glycemic control).
Because of lower/reduced circulating insulin levels, we don't necessarily have the same anabolic ability. (Insulin is as important as testosterone to adding lean mass). I bulk VERY slowly, as do many others with reduced serum insulin.
Bummer, but true.
Even the bodybuilders that use ketogenic diets use it mostly for losing fat, not building muscle.0 -
Very true. Many people with undiagnosed hypothyroidism do become obese, even with very little caloric intake. It's remarkable the metabolic slowdown that Hashimoto's or any hypothyroid condition can cause.Actually after re-reading your comment, you are kinda wrong, someone with Hashimoto's could definitely become morbidly obese if not diagnosed, or not taking the hormone replacement...only someone being successfully treated for Hashimoto's Thyroiditis can achieve and easily maintain a normal weight (like anyone else)..anywhoo...not what I was talking about in the first place..
Hashimoto's is compounded in that it also presents with insulin-resistance, which (due to the resultant roller-coaster of glucose/insulin levels) results in hunger cravings, which - when the subject yields to - (because people keep being told they should eat when hungry) causes additional weight gain.
Anyone with Hashimoto's that's lean has usually had the advantage of being diagnosed long-before the major metabolic systems can get seriously broken.0 -
I think it is really unheatthy to eliminate an entire food group....just balance your meals. Kegogenic is just low carb which is NOT healthy.0
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Keto is just another caloric deficit diet, there is nothing special about it. If carbs are what you wish to cut out go for it. But from my experience it seems to be less sustainable in the long run(purely anecdotal experience)0
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If you don't agree with it why say anything? Just move on... Most everyone who does it is either doing it for either auto immune, diabetes, endocrine disorders which are treated partially through diet.I think it is really unheatthy to eliminate an entire food group....just balance your meals. Kegogenic is just low carb which is NOT healthy.0 -
Keto is just another caloric deficit diet, there is nothing special about it. If carbs are what you wish to cut out go for it. But from my experience it seems to be less sustainable in the long run(purely anecdotal experience)
Perfectly stated in less then a few sentences. Bravo.0 -
Reddy, Savoia, Dat,
Outside of this post, I will no longer make time to respond to you. I think you're idiots, you think I'm an idiot. Fine by me.
Also, I'd suggest going to a new forum and starting up a thread like "Carbs r da betz!" and having your little circle jerk over there, instead of posting your ideals where they're not welcome.
Haha. Ill glady be an idiot who is shredded off of 40% of my calories coming from carbs
You are wise in not responding. Best of luck to you. 0 -
For many, bulking on keto can be difficult, especially those who are ketogenic to deal with insulin-resistance.... Although to me bulking on keto doesn't make much sense, as one of the primary benefit is muscle sparing (which people don't usually have to worry about while bulking).
Many who are insulin-resistant have some impairment with pancreatic beta-cell function, and often these individuals produce lower than normal insulin levels compared to someone without this metabolic condition.
In my case, it's almost total impairment, and i produce VERY little insulin naturally. (Without being ketogenic I'd have to inject both basal and bolus insulin to keep good glycemic control).
Because of lower/reduced circulating insulin levels, we don't necessarily have the same anabolic ability. (Insulin is as important as testosterone to adding lean mass). I bulk VERY slowly, as do many others with reduced serum insulin.
Bummer, but true.
Even the bodybuilders that use ketogenic diets use it mostly for losing fat, not building muscle.
No doubt!
Granted I can't say whether those guys were bulking on keto due to being diabetics. Like you said that's a whole other ballgame really.
I've read a few articles and some other things talking about insulin actually being the MOST important anabolic hormone (moreso then testosterone or HGH).
I'm hoping to be lean enough to start bulking this summer, and for all intents and purposes I doubt I'll be planning to bulk on keto.
I have a few friends that swear by leangains so I may give that a try (surplus on lift days, deficit on off days).0 -
lol what a tool.Reddy, Savoia, Dat,
Outside of this post, I will no longer make time to respond to you. I think you're idiots, you think I'm an idiot. Fine by me.
Also, I'd suggest going to a new forum and starting up a thread like "Carbs r da betz!" and having your little circle jerk over there, instead of posting your ideals where they're not welcome.
Haha. Ill glady be an idiot who is shredded off of 40% of my calories coming from carbs You are wise in not responding. Best of luck to you.
Thinks he knows what he is talking about. He is a beginner guy who discovered weights who thinks he understands about physiology and nutrition. For some reason he thinks carbs are the best and the fact we take in carbs we are only eating carbs.
People are so extreme they never go for moderation. They are the people who fail
Correct. Flexible dieting is a lost art these days.0 -
Carbs are not special people....please stop pretending they are0
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lol what a tool.Reddy, Savoia, Dat,
Outside of this post, I will no longer make time to respond to you. I think you're idiots, you think I'm an idiot. Fine by me.
Also, I'd suggest going to a new forum and starting up a thread like "Carbs r da betz!" and having your little circle jerk over there, instead of posting your ideals where they're not welcome.
Haha. Ill glady be an idiot who is shredded off of 40% of my calories coming from carbs You are wise in not responding. Best of luck to you.
Thinks he knows what he is talking about. He is a beginner guy who discovered weights who thinks he understands about physiology and nutrition. For some reason he thinks carbs are the best and the fact we take in carbs we are only eating carbs.
People are so extreme they never go for moderation. They are the people who fail
Trying to make sense of what you're saying... Are you calling him a tool because, he eats carbs? Or are you thinking he thinks people who eat carbs their diet is 100% carbs...?
I think he had a typo. He is promoting flexible dieting from the orignal post of the guy who got upset when we tried to say carbs are not the enemy.0 -
Carbs are not special people....please stop pretending they are
They are special if you have a metabolic disorder, sorry.0 -
Carbs are not special people....please stop pretending they are
They are special if you have a metabolic disorder, sorry.
Im talking to the majority of people here, not the minority. sorry should have clarified0 -
Carbs are not special people....please stop pretending they are
They are special if you have a metabolic disorder, sorry.
Im talking to the majority of people here, not the minority. sorry should have clarified
carbs are not physiologically required but carbohydrates are also found in some of the more dense micronutrient food products. if we didnt have a multivitamin you would have a serious problem.
Body cannot synthesize certain nutrients like vitamin C.
Phytochemicals are another issue
Having a well round diet is optimal.0 -
Ya'll are still here arguing?!
I love it, please continue. :laugh: :laugh: :drinker:
Gives me some free entertainment! :smokin:0 -
I have been on a low carb/high protein diet since 1999! Also known as a ketogenic diet. I feel great and have energy to spare.0
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Carbs are not special people....please stop pretending they are
They are special if you have a metabolic disorder, sorry.
Im talking to the majority of people here, not the minority. sorry should have clarified
I understand, but you'd be surprised just how much of the general population has a metabolic disorder. Still a minority, of course, but growing.0 -
Ya'll are still here arguing?!
I love it, please continue. :laugh: :laugh: :drinker:
Gives me some free entertainment! :smokin:
I wonder if this will stoke the fire, 2 words:
"Vegetarian keto".
Slowly backs out of room . :bigsmile:0
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