Why running and cardio alone aren't giving you what you want
Replies
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You know, the more I think about this topic, the more I get a bit pissy. Why didn't the author feel more for 'Jessica?'
She kept doing the same thing and wasn't happy with the result? *kitten*! Just a stupid argument.0 -
now we're talking. out of curiosity, did you regularly try and push your limits with cardio? As in the lactic acid threshold limits? springing, intervals, zumba movements that were full bodyweight, etc? Because if so, then thats not cardio any longer. And the article is void for you as it's not talking about people who do things other than cardio. only for those who just do steady state.For 14 months I did nothing but cardio. Now for the last 1 month only I been doing strength as well. Only the last month. Before that it was Zumba, Running. You know.... full on cardio. Not one thing other than that.
Nope. I can maintain a steady heart rate while running no problems. No pushing no nothing. Zumba it would go up & down but that was just the way it is. Trust me, nothing but cardio. Even just my walking was cardio. Nothing else in it.0 -
then congratulations on being a rarity. what bf% did cardio get you down to if I may ask?
now we're talking. out of curiosity, did you regularly try and push your limits with cardio? As in the lactic acid threshold limits? springing, intervals, zumba movements that were full bodyweight, etc? Because if so, then thats not cardio any longer. And the article is void for you as it's not talking about people who do things other than cardio. only for those who just do steady state.For 14 months I did nothing but cardio. Now for the last 1 month only I been doing strength as well. Only the last month. Before that it was Zumba, Running. You know.... full on cardio. Not one thing other than that.
Nope. I can maintain a steady heart rate while running no problems. No pushing no nothing. Zumba it would go up & down but that was just the way it is. Trust me, nothing but cardio. Even just my walking was cardio. Nothing else in it.0 -
About 26% last time I checked. That was before I started doing everything else. So really not bad.
then congratulations on being a rarity. what bf% did cardio get you down to if I may ask?
now we're talking. out of curiosity, did you regularly try and push your limits with cardio? As in the lactic acid threshold limits? springing, intervals, zumba movements that were full bodyweight, etc? Because if so, then thats not cardio any longer. And the article is void for you as it's not talking about people who do things other than cardio. only for those who just do steady state.For 14 months I did nothing but cardio. Now for the last 1 month only I been doing strength as well. Only the last month. Before that it was Zumba, Running. You know.... full on cardio. Not one thing other than that.
Nope. I can maintain a steady heart rate while running no problems. No pushing no nothing. Zumba it would go up & down but that was just the way it is. Trust me, nothing but cardio. Even just my walking was cardio. Nothing else in it.0 -
I disagree! Although I love muscles and intend to build some, I lost 15 pounds from diet and some cardio and I'm very happy with the results Thank you very much! And calipers and other estimates put me between 22 an 26% body fat.0
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I've been running for almost 3 months now and went from size 12 to size 6. But I also netted 1500-1600 calories a day. Sometimes more, but never less. And a 2lb a week average weight loss for 3 months now.
I know a lot of people who are runners. They are lean and in good shape. My DH's cholesterol went from his doctor considering putting him on cholesterol meds to getting super prefered life insurance rate.
I don't know why Jessica is fat, but it may be because you can't outrun your diet.
One dish at a restaurant can be more calories than 3 hours on a treadmill. My advice to Jessica would be to watch her calories.0 -
I've been running for almost 3 months now and went from size 12 to size 6. But I also netted 1500-1600 calories a day. Sometimes more, but never less. And a 2lb a week average weight loss for 3 months now.
I know a lot of people who are runners. They are lean and in good shape. My DH's cholesterol went from his doctor considering putting him on cholesterol meds to getting super prefered life insurance rate.
I don't know why Jessica is fat, but it may be because you can't outrun your diet.
One dish at a restaurant can be more calories than 3 hours on a treadmill. My advice to Jessica would be to watch her calories.
QFT!0 -
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I take it back then on being a rarity... thats pretty high actually. you do realize you're actually a case study of proving the authors point right???? Like I mean this is exactly what he's trying to say, tons of cardio and you'll end up with lots of bodyfat still.... someone whos long distance running and athletic should be 20% or less. 25% is around your average number of the population. 30% is considered overweight. so 14 months of cardio and diet and your end results was to be a higher bodyfat than your average person...About 26% last time I checked. That was before I started doing everything else. So really not bad.
http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/normal-ranges-of-body-weight-and-body-fat0 -
Did someone just say that 26% body fat in women is high?????????0
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for your average person no it's not. for a person doing exercise for over a year specifically to lose fat and reaching their goal weight, then yes it very much is.Did someone just say that 26% body fat in women is high?????????
Which if you read the article, is EXACTLY what he is saying.0 -
I'm glad you don't think 26% is high! Phew!
But you see, I consider myself a fairly average person who reached my goal weight and lost fat only with diet and running. It's really not all bad.0 -
never said you couldn't. Anyone can get from overweight to average with diet and cardio, or diet only. try and get to lower than average body fat levels doing that though. it's not easy. which again is exactly what the author is saying. And is really the only point of reference he is talking from.I'm glad you don't think 26% is high! Phew!
But you see, I consider myself a fairly average person who reached my goal weight and lost fat only with diet and running. It's really not all bad.0 -
It is true that I didn't read the article carefully, but I don't recall mention of exact body fat percentages. I also don't agree with the general title of this thread, or the article. It makes the assumption that someone knows what women want.0
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"So the author of this non-peer reviewed article holds degrees in mathematics and physics... why would I go there for nutrition and fitness advice??? Each to their own however
did you miss the dozens of peer reviewed research papers he cited???
sigh, you guys are amazing. the classic ad hominem logic fallacy."
I don't dispute the fact that he cited peer reviewed articles. His "opinion" on the said cited articles as an individual who is not within the field was what I was questioning, hence the "each to their own".
Thanks to the OP though for interesting me to do some of my own reading on the topic.0 -
I just do both.
Before I found weights, I only ran. I trained for a marathon. I defiantly was not fat, but then again, I did HITT training along with the long runs.
Now I do Oly lifting and running. Three days a week running HITT style (3-4 miles with 1.5 mile warm up and cool down). I lift on my own twice a week and Oly classes twice a week. On the days I lift, I usually spend an hour or so on the stair machine.
Anyway, my body loves it. I have tons of energy (but I'm also eating enough to fuel my workouts).
I was recently told there is no such thing as over training, only under recovery. This was from a coach who trained in both sprinting and Oly lifting.
Eat enough, sleep enough and do what you like!
:flowerforyou:0 -
To me this just sounds like someone who hates cardio and wants a valid excuse to never do it again.
Everything in moderation.
I like to run, and will continue to do so until the day I die. I've never seen an overweight runner. I don't spend hours every day, running though.
Really? I see overweight runners in my gym every single day.
OMG ! I have seen bunches of overweight lifters !
My post wasn't made in a lifter v runner way. It was in response to the post I quoted about not seeing overweight runners. I don't see what you seeing overweight lifters has anything to do with the fact that I see heavy runners in my gym at all....0 -
I take it back then on being a rarity... thats pretty high actually. you do realize you're actually a case study of proving the authors point right???? Like I mean this is exactly what he's trying to say, tons of cardio and you'll end up with lots of bodyfat still.... someone whos long distance running and athletic should be 20% or less. 25% is around your average number of the population. 30% is considered overweight. so 14 months of cardio and diet and your end results was to be a higher bodyfat than your average person...About 26% last time I checked. That was before I started doing everything else. So really not bad.
http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/normal-ranges-of-body-weight-and-body-fat
I'm 5'3" and 59kg...... 25% is actually perfectly within my 'range' for height & weight so 26% is not so bad.....1% BF is not tons. remember this was last time I checked & that was around xmas. I don't even bother anymore cause that's not important to me. What's important is my being able to run, eat & be happy. Anything else is secondary0 -
I read this article today, and although it's a very important read, I think the title "Why Women Should Not Run" is a bit misleading. However, it does a good job of explaining the dangers of the cycle of over-cardio that many women get in to trying desperately to burn fat. What I get out of this: cardio in moderation, add in some resistance, and pace yourself. Link here, full text pasted below for ease of consumption ;-)
http://www.dangerouslyhardcore.com/5343/why-women-should-not-run/
Here’s another article re-edit/rerelease. This one was originally published on EliteFTS.com, and we’re presenting this updated and polished-up version today in case you missed it the first time around.
I’m not sympathetic.
When I look at the fat guy in the gym wasting his time doing forearm curls to lose weight, I feel no sympathy. When a big tough meathead gets stapled to the bench by 365 pounds—after trying and failing with 315—I don’t feel any sympathetic pangs there, either. Even when I see a girl spend a half hour bouncing back and forth between the yes-no machines—the adductor and abductor units—only to have trouble walking the next day, I can’t muster even an iota of pathos.
Nobody told these people to do these things.
Then, however, I watch my friend Jessica running on the treadmill—day after day, year after year—like a madwoman, and going nowhere. Her body seems to get softer with every mile, and the softer she gets, the more she runs. For her, I feel sympathy, because the world has convinced her that running is the way to stay “slim and toned.”
There’s a Jessica in every gym. Spotting them is easy. They’re the women who run for an hour or more every day on the treadmill, setting new distance and/or time goals every week and month. Maybe they’re just interested in their treadmill workouts, maybe they’re training for their fifth fund-raising marathon, or maybe they’re even competing against runners in Finland via some Nike device. Doesn’t matter to me, because years of seeing my friend on the treadmill has exposed the results, which I’m not going to sugarcoat:
She’s still fat. Actually, she’s gotten fatter.
I’ve tried to rescue her from the clutches of cardio in the past, but my efforts didn’t work until a month ago, when she called to tell me that a blood test had confirmed her doctor’s suspicion: She had hypothyroidism, meaning her body no longer made enough thyroid hormone.
Her metabolism had slowed to a snail’s pace, and the fat was accumulating. This was her body rebelling. When Jessica asked for my advice, I told her to do two things: To schedule a second test for two weeks later, and to stop all the goddamned running until then.
I’m not here to pick on women or make fun of them. There are men out there who do the same thing, thinking cardio will wipe away the effects of their regular weekend beer binges. It’s more of a problem with women, though, and I’m targeting them for three very good reasons:
1. They’re often intensely recruited for fund-raisers like Team-In-Training, lured by the promises of slim, trim bodies and good health resulting from the months of cardio training leading to marathons—in addition to doing something for charity.
2. Some physique coaches prescribe 20-plus hours per week of pre-contest cardio for women, which essentially amounts to a part-time job.
3. Steady-state activities like this devastate the female metabolism. This happens with men, too, but in different ways.
I hate a lot of things about the fitness industry, but over-prescribed cardio would have to be at the very top of my list. I’m not talking about walking here, nor am I referring to appropriate HIIT cardio. This is about running, cycling, stair-climbing, or elliptical cardio done for hours at or above 65 percent of your max heart rate. The anaerobic threshold factors into this, obviously, but I’m painting gym cardio in very broad strokes here so everyone will understand what I’m railing against.
Trashing steady-state cardio isn’t exactly a novel idea, and the better physique gurus figured at least a portion of this out years ago, when they started applying the no-steady-state-cardio rule to contest preparation. They failed, however, to point out the most detrimental effect of this type of training—one that applies specifically to women:
Studies—both clinical and observational—make a compelling case that too much cardio can impair the production of the thyroid hormone T3, its effectiveness and metabolism[1-11], particularly when accompanied by caloric restriction, an all too common practice. This is why many first or second-time figure and bikini competitors explode in weight when they return to their normal diets, and it’s why the Jessicas of the world can run for hours every week with negative results.
T3 is the body’s preeminent regulator of metabolism, by the way it throttles the efficiency of cells[12-19]. It also acts in various ways to increase heat production[20-21]. As I pointed out in previous articles, this is one reason why using static equations to perform calories-in, calories-out weight loss calculations doesn’t work.
When T3 levels are normal, the body burns enough energy to stay warm, and muscles function at moderate efficiency. When there’s too much thyroid hormone (hyperthyroidism), the body goes into a state where weight gain is almost impossible. Too little T3 (hypothyroidism), and the body accumulates body fat with ease, almost regardless of physical activity level. Women inadvertently put themselves into a hypothyroid condition when they perform so much steady-state cardio.
In the quest to lose body fat, T3 levels can offer both success and miserable failure because of the way it influences other fat-regulating hormones[22-31]. Women additionally get all the other negative effects of this, which I’ll cover below. Don’t be surprised here. This is a simple, sensible adaptation of a body that’s equipped to bear the full brunt of reproduction.
Think about it this way: Your body is a responsive, adaptive machine that has evolved for survival. If you’re running on a regular basis, your body senses this excessive energy expenditure, and adjusts to compensate. Remember, no matter which way we hope the body works, its endgame is always survival. If you waste energy running, your body will react by slowing your metabolism to conserve energy. Decreasing energy output is biologically savvy for your body. Your body wants to survive longer while you do what it views as a stressful, useless activity. Decreasing T3 production increases efficiency and adjusts your metabolism to preserve energy immediately.
Nothing exemplifies this increasing efficiency better than the way the body starts burning fuel. Training consistently at 65 percent or more of your max heart rate adapts your body to save as much body fat as possible. After regular training, fat cells stop releasing fat the way they once did during moderate-intensity activities[32-33]. Energy from body fat stores also decreases by 30 percent[34-35]. To this end, your body sets into motion a series of reactions that make it difficult for muscle to burn fat at all[36-41]. Instead of burning body fat, your body takes extraordinary measures to retain it.
Still believe cardio is the fast track to fat loss?
That’s not all. You can still lose muscle mass. Too much steady-state cardio actually triggers the loss of muscle[42-45]. This seems to be a twofold mechanism, with heightened and sustained cortisol levels triggering muscle loss[46-56], which upregulates myostatin, a potent destroyer of muscle tissue[57]. Say goodbye to bone density, too, because it declines with that decreasing muscle mass and strength[58-64].
And long term health? Out the window, as well. Your percentage of muscle mass is an independent indicator of health[65]. You’ll lose muscle, lose bone, and lose health. Awesome, right?
When sewn together, these phenomena coordinate a symphony of fat gain for most female competitors after figure contests. After a month—or three—of 20-plus hours of cardio per week, fat burning hits astonishing lows, and fat cells await an onslaught of calories to store[66-72]. The worst thing imaginable in this state would be to eat whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted. The combination of elevated insulin and cortisol would make you fat, and it would also create new fat cells so you could become even fatter[73-80].
I won’t name names, but I’ve seen amazing displays of gluttony from some small, trim women. Entire pizzas disappear, leaving only the flotsam of toppings that fell during the feeding frenzy. Appetizers, meals, cocktails and desserts—4000 calories worth—vanish at the Cheesecake Factory. There are no leftovers, and there are no crumbs. Some women catch this in time and stop the devastation, but others quickly swell, realizing that this supposed off-season look has become their every-season look.
And guess what they do to fix it? Double sessions of cardio.
This “cardio craze” is a form of insanity, and it’s on my hit list. I’m determined to kill it. There are better ways to lose fat, and there are better ways to look good. Your bikini body is not at the end of a marathon, and you won’t find it on a treadmill. In fact, it’s quite the opposite if you’re using steady-state cardio to get there. The show may be over, and the finish line crossed, but the damage to your metabolism has just begun.
Don’t want to stop running? Fine. Then stop complaining about how the fat won’t come off your hips, thighs, and *kitten*. You’re keeping it there.
And as for Jessica, my friend whose dilemma sparked this article? She took my suggestion and cut out the cardio. Two weeks later, her T3 count was normal. Go figure.
imma let you finish but srsly.....
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I thought it was poorly written. The author lost me in the beginning dissing people bench pressing and doing curls, and also dissing cardio. WTF is he/she talking about? I didn't read the whole thing, because as I said, whatever message they were trying to convey, they failed right from the start, iMO.
If you had read even another paragraph you'd probably understand. Firstly the author is not writing for this site, but for his own, with a specific audience in mind. More importantly however he sets up the article by comparing the people who lie to themselves about their training (attempting 110% of your max bench, forearm curls for fat loss) with someone who's been giving poor information about how much cardio to do and has been harmed or shortchanged by this poor advice. Its a pretty standard writing technique.0 -
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I just do both.
*snipped*
Anyway, my body loves it. I have tons of energy (but I'm also eating enough to fuel my workouts).
I was recently told there is no such thing as over training, only under recovery. This was from a coach who trained in both sprinting and Oly lifting.
Eat enough, sleep enough and do what you like!
I am pretty much in this category. I run, cycle, swim and lift heavy (my rest day is active, I workout 6 days per week). Since adjusting my food intake and macros, I have not looked back and am still losing weight steadily.0 -
I just do both.
Before I found weights, I only ran. I trained for a marathon. I defiantly was not fat, but then again, I did HITT training along with the long runs.
Now I do Oly lifting and running. Three days a week running HITT style (3-4 miles with 1.5 mile warm up and cool down). I lift on my own twice a week and Oly classes twice a week. On the days I lift, I usually spend an hour or so on the stair machine.
That's not HIIT, if you're claiming 3-4 miles is HIIT you're doing it wrong. A lot of people do interval training and call it HIIT, but they're not the same thing. True HIIT intervals only last between 30-60 seconds, because they're at 100% maximum exertion (they also can't be done safely/effectively on a treadmill). A real HIIT workout takes maybe 20 minutes (and that's including warmup/cooldown).0 -
each to there own I say
I've done karate for over 16 years and will do what I love even when I have to use a walking frame, (so a long time)
I enjoy the gym, I love the bike and rowing machine, no so keen on that step thing
enjoy the weights
GUYS and GIRLS do what you love
each to there own
"I workout, because I can. When I get tired, or I am short on time, or I want to quit...I think about how lucky I am to be healthy enough to workout daily. Be grateful for your health and your ability to become STRONGER. Don't ever take it for granted!"
'if you dont want to be a fat lazy &%$*& then dont eat crap and do some excercise'0 -
I reread the article several times. It brings ups the same discoveries we have intense moments of fellowship and discussion about on our forums here...
1) You lose weight by your daily intake (you can't correct the cheese cake factory feasts damage by working out alone)
2) Cardio is good for you
3) weight lifting is good for you
4) resistance training is good for you.
The article just attempts to make fun out of people "over doing" one of the above to make a point. I don't find it funny. I think it is more important to point out the need to have goals or reasons to hit the treadmill.. and maintaining our current health is as important a goal to me as is a body builders desire to compete. They are just different goals.
I think we all find our way to what works for us at the right time given our life and work demands. People run for more than just the physical weight maintenance. They like the endo rush they get. it is a good way to get time to clear your mind and get oxygen in your system. Good for runners knowing what works for them.
I don't think the intense moments of fellowship and debates on balancing among nutrition, weight lifting and cardio are bad, I think they highlight we need to continously monitor how our bodies are reacting to what we do them. Thanks to all the posters who highlight that!0 -
I thought it was poorly written. The author lost me in the beginning dissing people bench pressing and doing curls, and also dissing cardio. WTF is he/she talking about? I didn't read the whole thing, because as I said, whatever message they were trying to convey, they failed right from the start, iMO.
This.0 -
did you miss the dozens of peer reviewed research papers he cited???So the author of this non-peer reviewed article holds degrees in mathematics and physics... why would I go there for nutrition and fitness advice??? Each to their own however :flowerforyou:
sigh, you guys are amazing. the classic ad hominem logic fallacy.
"Citing" research papers and understanding them are two vastly different things. I mentioned this in one the last four discussions we had on this article. I specifically said that the author represented a particular type of "fitness author"--a guy with advanced degrees who is just intelligent enough to be stupid. Throughout the years, I have found that certain people from this background--advanced degrees in biochemistry, math, physics, engineering--can become so preoccupied with the "micro" that they miss the "macro" picture completely.
The classic example is Covert Bailey. Biochemistry degree from MIT. Became famous in the early 1990s for his book "Fit or Fat". Bailey used numerous studies and the glib use of details in biochemistry to construct a persuasive paradigm supporting the concept of the "fat burning zone". His arguments were so persuasive that, 20+ years later, the "fat-burning" concept is still believed my many people and it is built into the infrastructure of almost every cardio machine and heart rate monitor.
Only problem? It was all wrong.
It is partly in response to the popularity of Bailey's ideas that you have had a movement in recent years back towards HIIT and resistance training. And those ideologues are making the same mistakes.
They are failing the same way that those who have over-emphasized the importance and effectiveness of cardio have failed--by ignoring the reality in front of their faces in order to push a political and often ego-driven agenda. People who assert that "you have to do cardio to burn fat" ignore the reality of tens of thousands of people who have successfully transformed their bodies via resistance training. People, like the author of his article and those in his ideological camp, make the exact same mistake, only in reverse.
It doesn't take a degree is psychology to see the whopping amounts of projection in these types of approaches. You combine that with a certain talent for glibness and the intelligence to microparse research data--and the result is the big, steaming pile of nonsense produced by this author and those like him.0 -
did you miss the dozens of peer reviewed research papers he cited???So the author of this non-peer reviewed article holds degrees in mathematics and physics... why would I go there for nutrition and fitness advice??? Each to their own however :flowerforyou:
sigh, you guys are amazing. the classic ad hominem logic fallacy.
"Citing" research papers and understanding them are two vastly different things. I mentioned this in one the last four discussions we had on this article. I specifically said that the author represented a particular type of "fitness author"--a guy with advanced degrees who is just intelligent enough to be stupid. Throughout the years, I have found that certain people from this background--advanced degrees in biochemistry, math, physics, engineering--can become so preoccupied with the "micro" that they miss the "macro" picture completely.
The classic example is Covert Bailey. Biochemistry degree from MIT. Became famous in the early 1990s for his book "Fit or Fat". Bailey used numerous studies and the glib use of details in biochemistry to construct a persuasive paradigm supporting the concept of the "fat burning zone". His arguments were so persuasive that, 20+ years later, the "fat-burning" concept is still believed my many people and it is built into the infrastructure of almost every cardio machine and heart rate monitor.
Only problem? It was all wrong.
It is partly in response to the popularity of Bailey's ideas that you have had a movement in recent years back towards HIIT and resistance training. And those ideologues are making the same mistakes.
They are failing the same way that those who have over-emphasized the importance and effectiveness of cardio have failed--by ignoring the reality in front of their faces in order to push a political and often ego-driven agenda. People who assert that "you have to do cardio to burn fat" ignore the reality of tens of thousands of people who have successfully transformed their bodies via resistance training. People, like the author of his article and those in his ideological camp, make the exact same mistake, only in reverse.
It doesn't take a degree is psychology to see the whopping amounts of projection in these types of approaches. You combine that with a certain talent for glibness and the intelligence to microparse research data--and the result is the big, steaming pile of nonsense produced by this author and those like him.
Spot on analysis! Although I haven't dug through the research cited here myself I have the same conclusion as you. Even those conducting the studies themselves can inherently have bias ( they make their date try to fit their hypothesis, or draw some specific conclusion that don't exactly fit,etc). Data is simply data, people manipulate data everyday.
Simply because something is "peer reviewed" or in a "journal" doesn't make it infallible, and I wish more people would actually understand this. I'm planning on submitting my own research for journal publication (law/legal) sometime this year. Will it look nice on my resume/CV, yep; ultimately it's still my individual viewpoint.0 -
To me this just sounds like someone who hates cardio and wants a valid excuse to never do it again.
Everything in moderation.
I like to run, and will continue to do so until the day I die. I've never seen an overweight runner. I don't spend hours every day, running though.
Really? I see overweight runners in my gym every single day.
OMG ! I have seen bunches of overweight lifters !
My post wasn't made in a lifter v runner way. It was in response to the post I quoted about not seeing overweight runners. I don't see what you seeing overweight lifters has anything to do with the fact that I see heavy runners in my gym at all....
I found the error. It's super rare to find a runner on a treadmill at the gym.0 -
This article is BS. Here is a shocker, anything to an extreme is not good for you. Any serious runner will tell you should lift too. But to say you can't loose weight from running in BS. I lost a over 100 pound by running and eating less calories. If all it took to lose weight was to have a good T3 count there would be a pill for it and there wouldn't be any fat people.
Running alone will not get you your perfect body. You need to watch what you eat, lift weights and work at. Demonizing running is ridiculous. This article sounds like something a pissed off Dr. Oz would write.0
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