5/3/1

FrnkLft

I hope no one minds, but I'd like to tack on a question, if I may. I'm considering switching to this set up from 5x5 because all the squatting plus training for a 5K and 10K was murdering my legs. I'd like to do the 3 day rotation, but would love it if I could keep the 3 days the same, so was considering double up two lifts. So, should I do M: Squat, W: Bench/OHP F: Deadlift, or should I combine one of the upper body focused lifts with one of the lower body focused lifts?

I'll go back to what I've said in the past... I really think you need to pick a focus and put your emphasis there. If that means you only lift once or twice a week, then so be it. If that means you cut back on your running, then ok. But tryign to go all out with both your lifting and running is going to wear you out fast.

That said, IME, this program is far more intense than 5x5. I'd rather do a 5x5 route twice a week with a bunch of cardio than almost any variation of a 5.3.1 program. Wendler kills me.

Oh, and FWIW... I'm doing wendler 3ish times per week now (during race season) with almost no leg work. It's just too much with my riding and running.

.

The "5/3/1 kills me" thing, I don't really understand what part of the program kills people vs. say 5x5 where you are doing 5 sets vs. 3 sets in 5/3/1. You're a triathlete so I'm interested, is it the final reps to exhaustion part?

It is worth mentioning that I have previously been doing linear progression 5 day split, 3 sets of 6 at maximal weight to complete.

Yes, it's mostly the volume that comes with the final set, but also the accessory lifts. Since we're talking about legs, let's focus on squats. I've never been especially strong, but as a triathlete I have pretty good muscular endurance. So with 5x5 I'd struggle to do 5 sets of 5 reps at 225, but feel fine an hour after the session was over. With Wendler, I do something like 185x5, 185x5, 185x12, then move right into weighted lunges, and then be basically crippled the rest of the day.

So for me the additional volume along with complimentary accessory lifts makes 5/3/1 a MUCH more intense program.

Ah, **** lol understood. Lunges suck though lol, worse than squats! Right now I have it set to try Squats for quads, BW Good Mornings for glutes, and barbell calf raises.

eric_sg61

Solid routine with a lot of options. I do it for my main lifts and do bodybuilding for my other movements.

nexangelus

It works for me... I have progressed from 5 x 5...have done a few cycles of Wendler's since last year. Keeping me strong.

JNick77

The "5/3/1 kills me" thing, I don't really understand what part of the program kills people vs. say 5x5 where you are doing 5 sets vs. 3 sets in 5/3/1. You're a triathlete so I'm interested, is it the final reps to exhaustion part

You won't understand it until you try it. I remember on my 5/5/5+ set day for DL'ing I cranked out like 12 reps. I put the bar down and dropped to a knee because I was exhausted and wanted to puke. Remember what I said earlier, do not confuse intensity and load with just frequency and load. 5/3/1 is far far more intense than 5x5.

FrnkLft

Edit.

FrnkLft

Just a quick update on progress, the following split was definitely not too much for Week 1, and I don't anticipate it being too much for week 2 or 3, since the reps lessen when the weight increases. The only thing is the deads, no way I can do lower back for more than 2x a week right now.

Sun, Wed: Chest & Legs
Monday, Fri: Back & Shoulders

I've been reading and listening to more of Layne Norton's stuff, and I'm going to modify things a bit and see how it suits me. His rep schemes are more variable (2-3 sets of 15-20 reps sometimes), so I am going to round out this week by modifying his routine... basically using 5/3/1 for the "Power" days and including his hypertrophy work with the remaining week. Also splitting to a 5 day routine.

http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html

Sun: Chest & Legs 5/3/1 + 2 Accessory Lifts Per Group, 10 reps x 3 sets
Mon: Back & Shoulders 5/3/1 + 2 Accessory Lifts Per Group, 10 reps x 3 sets
Tues: Rest
Wed: Chest & Arms (5/3/1 Bench + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Thurs: Legs (5/3/1 Squat + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Fri: Back & Shoulders (5/3/1 Deadlift & OHP + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Sat: Rest

This is literally as varied as I can make the routine, I get my 5 days a week back, gain an Arms day, and I have a huge mix of rep schemes. On the hypertrophy days, I might not do excess 5/3/1 reps like I would on the strict 5/3/1 days.

ahmadfahmy

There is one thing though, 5 sets of 10 reps for each of the auxillary exercises... that amounts to a total of 115 reps per session + warmups.

That seems a little excessive to me. Is this really necessary? That's huge volume.

So far I've been doing doing maybe 72 on a particularly long day.

In the book he says if you dont know how many sets/reps to do for accessory work just do 5x10..he doesnt say its a requirement.

grantdumas7

Just a quick update on progress, the following split was definitely not too much for Week 1, and I don't anticipate it being too much for week 2 or 3, since the reps lessen when the weight increases. The only thing is the deads, no way I can do lower back for more than 2x a week right now.

Sun, Wed: Chest & Legs
Monday, Fri: Back & Shoulders

I've been reading and listening to more of Layne Norton's stuff, and I'm going to modify things a bit and see how it suits me. His rep schemes are more variable (2-3 sets of 15-20 reps sometimes), so I am going to round out this week by modifying his routine... basically using 5/3/1 for the "Power" days and including his hypertrophy work with the remaining week. Also splitting to a 5 day routine.

http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html

Sun: Chest & Legs 5/3/1 + 2 Accessory Lifts Per Group, 10 reps x 3 sets
Mon: Back & Shoulders 5/3/1 + 2 Accessory Lifts Per Group, 10 reps x 3 sets
Tues: Rest
Wed: Chest & Arms (5/3/1 Bench + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Thurs: Legs (5/3/1 Squat + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Fri: Back & Shoulders (5/3/1 Deadlift & OHP + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Sat: Rest

This is literally as varied as I can make the routine, I get my 5 days a week back, gain an Arms day, and I have a huge mix of rep schemes. On the hypertrophy days, I might not do excess 5/3/1 reps like I would on the strict 5/3/1 days.

I don't know how you can do 5/3/1 squats one day and 5/31/ deads the next. Deads and squats work a majority of the same muscle groups. If you want to do 5/3/1 and PHAT combo you may or at lest in the future do something like this:
Sun: Bench 5/3/1 + accessory work
Mon: Squat 5/3/1 + accessory work
Tues: Rest
Wed: Shoulders/Back Overhead press 5/3/1 with back work. For rowing movements use chest supported to keep your lower back out of the movement
Thurs: Lowerbody with 5/3/1 deadlift and do explosive reps on the squats.
Fri: Chest/Arms do the PHAT variation of explosive reps on the bench.

danimalkeys

I think I'm going to give this a go. I've done the basic 5x5 since February, just to get back into the flow of lifting after 3 years layoff. I've progressed pretty well on the 5x5, still have a fair amount to go on bench and squats before I miss a rep, but I hit the wall on overhead press last week. I stopped deadlifts 2 weeks ago because of a hand problem. I'm not sure how this will work, but if I can't deadlift I'll continue doing hang cleans like I have done the last couple weeks. I think I can start over with 5/3/1 and adjust my grip some and maybe buy some time before the hand issue gets in the way again.

I like doing 2 days of lifting, so I'll do the combo of squats/bench on Monday and OHP/Deads on Thursday, and keep my cardio on the other days.

Today is supposed to be a B workout on 5x5, but I think I'm going to do some testing of rep/max to get some starting numbers for 5/3/1 and start that on Monday. Not necessarily max out for 1 rep but push some triples as high as I can go. I already have an idea of what my deadlift and OHP numbers would be so I'll look at bench and squat.

I've enjoyed 5x5 but it's beginning to be a little boring, and I like the wave approach to adding weights and reducing reps. I followed similar schemes when I was lifting heavy so this isn't a new idea for me. I also have done zero assistance while on 5x5 and the idea of doing some board presses and good mornings again gets me psyched up. Reading this thread sorta lit a fire under me and helped me decide it's time for a change up, so thanks!

Huffdogg

Great tie in... I'm still reading, and the anabolic effects of exercise persist for between 24 to 48 hours after a session for a new lifter (again, I've been at it for agout 6 mo.). The natural conclusion here is that to maximize gains for any particular muscle group, it helps to work them out at least twice a week while still providing a day of rest in between.

That said, isn't 5x5 optimal?, even better than 5/3/1? 5x5 has you working out the same groups 3 times a week!

I could also just start a bit higher, but sub-max like 5/3/1.

To begin with, I'd recommend SS over SL any day of the week. Secondly, beginner systems are ideal for beginners. 5/3/1 will work for beginners, but it's designed to be an intermediate program. I'm not familiar with the 3-day full-body template so I can't comment on that, but 5/3/1 proper is a slower periodization program than SS.

(side note: every program HAS periodization. the frequency of it is what sets programs apart into groups suitable for anything from beginner through advanced training)

SS's periodization is "every time you lift, you increase." That's something that only a beginner can handle, when a large quantity of the gains that you see are due to a lot of factors that aren't purely muscle strength. Everybody exhausts these gains at some point. When that happens, you move to a program that's designed for more effective long-term strength improvement.

Personally, I find the idea of a beginner starting with Wendler's to be a bit "inefficient," as the periodization scheme is much slower than a newbie needs. However, it won't hurt to use it, and it's a time-tested program.

I don't like only squatting and benching once a week, which is the main reason it didn't click with me, but I know many people who love it.

Huffdogg

Yes, it's mostly the volume that comes with the final set, but also the accessory lifts.

Wendler himself has ALWAYS said that the accessory work is not the focus of the program. The core lifts are. There's even a version of the program that doesn't include any accessory work. If you're wanting to strength train but are worried about impacting running, I'd just cut out the accessory work and then slowly add a bit back in where you want until you find a good balance.

jacksonpt

Just a quick update on progress, the following split was definitely not too much for Week 1, and I don't anticipate it being too much for week 2 or 3, since the reps lessen when the weight increases. The only thing is the deads, no way I can do lower back for more than 2x a week right now.

Sun, Wed: Chest & Legs
Monday, Fri: Back & Shoulders

I've been reading and listening to more of Layne Norton's stuff, and I'm going to modify things a bit and see how it suits me. His rep schemes are more variable (2-3 sets of 15-20 reps sometimes), so I am going to round out this week by modifying his routine... basically using 5/3/1 for the "Power" days and including his hypertrophy work with the remaining week. Also splitting to a 5 day routine.

http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html

Sun: Chest & Legs 5/3/1 + 2 Accessory Lifts Per Group, 10 reps x 3 sets
Mon: Back & Shoulders 5/3/1 + 2 Accessory Lifts Per Group, 10 reps x 3 sets
Tues: Rest
Wed: Chest & Arms (5/3/1 Bench + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Thurs: Legs (5/3/1 Squat + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Fri: Back & Shoulders (5/3/1 Deadlift & OHP + Hypertrophy Work Varied)
Sat: Rest

This is literally as varied as I can make the routine, I get my 5 days a week back, gain an Arms day, and I have a huge mix of rep schemes. On the hypertrophy days, I might not do excess 5/3/1 reps like I would on the strict 5/3/1 days.

I don't know how you can do 5/3/1 squats one day and 5/31/ deads the next. Deads and squats work a majority of the same muscle groups. If you want to do 5/3/1 and PHAT combo you may or at lest in the future do something like this:
Sun: Bench 5/3/1 + accessory work
Mon: Squat 5/3/1 + accessory work
Tues: Rest
Wed: Shoulders/Back Overhead press 5/3/1 with back work. For rowing movements use chest supported to keep your lower back out of the movement
Thurs: Lowerbody with 5/3/1 deadlift and do explosive reps on the squats.
Fri: Chest/Arms do the PHAT variation of explosive reps on the bench.

I see a lot of posts like this, but I will just say that it's never been a problem for me. Squats work (for me) almost entirely quads (calves and abs are secondary). Deads work almost entirely lower back (calves, quads, abs are secondary). A day later I can usually still feel the squats in my quads, but the rest of me is more than fine for deads.

jacksonpt

Yes, it's mostly the volume that comes with the final set, but also the accessory lifts.

Wendler himself has ALWAYS said that the accessory work is not the focus of the program. The core lifts are. There's even a version of the program that doesn't include any accessory work. If you're wanting to strength train but are worried about impacting running, I'd just cut out the accessory work and then slowly add a bit back in where you want until you find a good balance.

Agreed... I've tailored the accessory lifts to my needs (aesthetics, racing, etc), but do the core lifts exactly as programmed.

JNick77

Just a quick update on progress, the following split was definitely not too much for Week 1, and I don't anticipate it being too much for week 2 or 3, since the reps lessen when the weight increases. The only thing is the deads, no way I can do lower back for more than 2x a week right now.

Good to hear. I didn't think it would be at first, but I'm curious to see where you stand after about 4 or 5 cycles of this. Keep us up-to-date with your progress or start a new thread in the Power Lifting discussion board.

The only thing I'll say about the accessory work is make sure you're getting in plenty of dips and chin-ups in each week at max reps, at least for the chins.

Huffdogg

I see a lot of posts like this, but I will just say that it's never been a problem for me. Squats work (for me) almost entirely quads (calves and abs are secondary). Deads work almost entirely lower back (calves, quads, abs are secondary). A day later I can usually still feel the squats in my quads, but the rest of me is more than fine for deads.

I'm guessing you squat high bar?

jacksonpt

I see a lot of posts like this, but I will just say that it's never been a problem for me. Squats work (for me) almost entirely quads (calves and abs are secondary). Deads work almost entirely lower back (calves, quads, abs are secondary). A day later I can usually still feel the squats in my quads, but the rest of me is more than fine for deads.

I'm guessing you squat high bar?

yeah

1ConcreteGirl

I see a lot of posts like this, but I will just say that it's never been a problem for me. Squats work (for me) almost entirely quads (calves and abs are secondary). Deads work almost entirely lower back (calves, quads, abs are secondary). A day later I can usually still feel the squats in my quads, but the rest of me is more than fine for deads.

I'm guessing you squat high bar?

yeah

Squats have very little hamstring engagement, contrary to popular opinion.

http://iconperformancenetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/EMG-Hamstring-Study.pdf

Capt_Apollo

check out strstd.com

GorillaNJ

check out strstd.com

THIS... Cap pointed me there 4 weeks ago and I am finding the workouts to be killer

Capt_Apollo

what i like about 5/3/1 is wendlers attitude towards the whole thing. very no-nonsense. read the FAQ in the back of the book. simple answers. "can i use front squat instead of back squat?" "yes" he just says to go out and do it. no excuses. gives you the breakdown how to do a three-day or two day split. even calls people out if they say that can't make strength gains only lifting twice a week.

it is a program based on planning and hard work. this isn't a program for someone that goes to the gym for a "back and bi's" day, and skips leg day. wendler deigned this program because he wanted a 600lb dead lift and feel and look good, have fun, and not waste a ton of time doing marathon sessions in the gym with half a million exercises.

is it more of an intermediate lifting program? maybe. wendler doesn't think so, and neither do i. saying it isn't a beginner program is just making an excuse to putting off real training.

btw, i totally start half my sentences with "according to wendler..."

Capt_Apollo

i'd like to add that i followed the program for a few months last year and made incredible gains. got up to a 325 lb dead lift before i had to stop lifting for a while.

i restarted the program second week of january, at very light weights. so what? so did wendler.

on march 12th, my birthday, i rehit my max after just two months of training. oh, and my overhead press is at 170lbs.

JNick77

I see a lot of posts like this, but I will just say that it's never been a problem for me. Squats work (for me) almost entirely quads (calves and abs are secondary). Deads work almost entirely lower back (calves, quads, abs are secondary). A day later I can usually still feel the squats in my quads, but the rest of me is more than fine for deads.

I'm guessing you squat high bar?

yeah

Squats have very little hamstring engagement, contrary to popular opinion.

http://iconperformancenetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/EMG-Hamstring-Study.pdf

There's studies and then there's results. In all due-respect to this study, my posterior chain is pretty tight after my first squat exercise. I will say that I feel like my quads do feel more stimulated than anything, yes I hit parallel, which is why I still isolate my posterior chain with RDL's, GM', Back Extensions, and GHR's. I would say that most knowledgeable people do realize that hamstrings need additional stimulation which why, for instance, Wendler recommends doing GM's and GHR's in his book.

is it more of an intermediate lifting program? maybe. wendler doesn't think so, and neither do i. saying it isn't a beginner program is just making an excuse to putting off real training.

Agreed. I think 5/3/1 sets-up a beginner for better long-term success than SL5x5. People say that the gains are slower but if you actually calculate it out over time SL5x5 doesn't overtake 5/3/1's progression in sheer weight until like 2 or 3 months out generally. And since SL5x5 is straight linear-progression, you can't assume that the progress will continue like that anyway, generally speaking for most people at least.

CorvusCorax77

There is one thing though, 5 sets of 10 reps for each of the auxillary exercises... that amounts to a total of 115 reps per session + warmups.

That seems a little excessive to me. Is this really necessary? That's huge volume.

So far I've been doing doing maybe 72 on a particularly long day.

I love 5/3/1 It has upped my ORM's.

I am no expert. I just do the thing. But I think the 5x10 at the end feels like it's more a fat burning exercise than a strength building exercise. I usually do it in combo with other lower weight higher rep exercises with few breaks and make it like a crossfit 20/20/20 deal. I treat it like a circuit. Kills me. I think it's good stuff. "Necessary"? I dunno. But it makes me feel like I kicked my own *kitten* to do my warm up, work sets, set to failure, and then follow it up with my own WOD!

CorvusCorax77

oh I wanna weigh in on the 5/3/1 plus race training bit....

This is what I do...

If I'm training for a race (which I am, actually!) my plan is to do just the main lifts of 5/3/1 and then do my short runs on lift days. So I don't do the assistance work those days. I'll do my warm up, my work set, and that's it. I will do some of the other lifts depending how I feel (I don't ditch out on my rows ever, but I do ditch out on my leg curls/GHR's/hanging leg raises/and chin ups).

I wonder what people think of this?

I think it's ok to focus on two things at once But i'm also a single mom, so worrying about throwing more on my plate is like worrying about pouring a glass of water into the ocean

Capt_Apollo

There is one thing though, 5 sets of 10 reps for each of the auxillary exercises... that amounts to a total of 115 reps per session + warmups.

That seems a little excessive to me. Is this really necessary? That's huge volume.

So far I've been doing doing maybe 72 on a particularly long day.

I love 5/3/1 It has upped my ORM's.

I am no expert. I just do the thing. But I think the 5x10 at the end feels like it's more a fat burning exercise than a strength building exercise. I usually do it in combo with other lower weight higher rep exercises with few breaks and make it like a crossfit 20/20/20 deal. I treat it like a circuit. Kills me. I think it's good stuff. "Necessary"? I dunno. But it makes me feel like I kicked my own *kitten* to do my warm up, work sets, set to failure, and then follow it up with my own WOD!

it totally feels like cardio doing the 5x10's. remember, you're doing them at a much lower weight than your working weight.

DavPul

weren't you looking for a hypertrophy routine like.....a week ago? now you're looking for powerlifting routines? did you switch goals or are you confused about the difference. i'm not taking a dig at you; i'm asking honestly. a lot of people on this side don't know the difference and then wind up disappointed when they don't hit their specific goals. hell, whatever an "accessory lift" is, I'm pretty sure I've never done one in my life.

kingkong123

oh I wanna weigh in on the 5/3/1 plus race training bit....

This is what I do...

If I'm training for a race (which I am, actually!) my plan is to do just the main lifts of 5/3/1 and then do my short runs on lift days. So I don't do the assistance work those days. I'll do my warm up, my work set, and that's it. I will do some of the other lifts depending how I feel (I don't ditch out on my rows ever, but I do ditch out on my leg curls/GHR's/hanging leg raises/and chin ups).

I wonder what people think of this?

I think it's ok to focus on two things at once But i'm also a single mom, so worrying about throwing more on my plate is like worrying about pouring a glass of water into the ocean

From http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/hardcore-look-at-jim-wendlers-5-3-1-powerlifting-system.html

"In the Wendler's 5/3/1 book, the following assistance plans are presented:

•Boring But Big. Main lift, the main lift again @ 5x10 (50% 1RM), and another accessory exercise for 5 sets.
•The Triumvirate. Main lift, and two assistance exercises - 5 sets each.
•I'm Not Doing Jack ****. Main lift, and nothing else.
•Periodization Bible by Dave Tate. Main lift, and 3 exercises - 5 x 10-20 reps each.
•Bodyweight. Main lift, and 2 bodyweight exercises such as the pull up, sit ups, dips, etc."

See the third option. Less assistance makes sense when you have other training going on. Of course, with focus on both strength and racing, your lifts may progress slower.

jacksonpt

oh I wanna weigh in on the 5/3/1 plus race training bit....

This is what I do...

If I'm training for a race (which I am, actually!) my plan is to do just the main lifts of 5/3/1 and then do my short runs on lift days. So I don't do the assistance work those days. I'll do my warm up, my work set, and that's it. I will do some of the other lifts depending how I feel (I don't ditch out on my rows ever, but I do ditch out on my leg curls/GHR's/hanging leg raises/and chin ups).

I wonder what people think of this?

I think it's ok to focus on two things at once But i'm also a single mom, so worrying about throwing more on my plate is like worrying about pouring a glass of water into the ocean

This is similar to what I do. I'll skip squat day completely during the peak of race season, but I still do everything else as programmed, including accessory lifts.

Huffdogg

Squats have very little hamstring engagement, contrary to popular opinion.

http://iconperformancenetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/EMG-Hamstring-Study.pdf

Very little as compared to assistance/isolation movements that are single-joint exercises working the hamstrings almost excusively? Yeah, sure. But that's like saying that deadlifts work your back less than isolateral plate-loaded rows. In terms of percentage of muscle recruitment involved, a compound lift is always going to be spreading the work over multiple muscle groups.

JNick77

Squats have very little hamstring engagement, contrary to popular opinion.

http://iconperformancenetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/EMG-Hamstring-Study.pdf

Very little as compared to assistance/isolation movements that are single-joint exercises working the hamstrings almost excusively? Yeah, sure. But that's like saying that deadlifts work your back less than isolateral plate-loaded rows. In terms of percentage of muscle recruitment involved, a compound lift is always going to be spreading the work over multiple muscle groups.

Totally. When squatting correctly the hamstrings definitely act as a strong stabilizer muscle. Just as when you're doing RDL's which focus on the posterior chain, the quads help stabilize the knee and add support.

I'm Not Doing Jack ****. Main lift, and nothing else

This is probably a good in-season method for athletes and runners.