5/3/1
Replies
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oh I wanna weigh in on the 5/3/1 plus race training bit....
This is what I do...
If I'm training for a race (which I am, actually!) my plan is to do just the main lifts of 5/3/1 and then do my short runs on lift days. So I don't do the assistance work those days. I'll do my warm up, my work set, and that's it. I will do some of the other lifts depending how I feel (I don't ditch out on my rows ever, but I do ditch out on my leg curls/GHR's/hanging leg raises/and chin ups).
I wonder what people think of this?
I think it's ok to focus on two things at once
But i'm also a single mom, so worrying about throwing more on my plate is like worrying about pouring a glass of water into the ocean
From http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/hardcore-look-at-jim-wendlers-5-3-1-powerlifting-system.html
"In the Wendler's 5/3/1 book, the following assistance plans are presented:
•Boring But Big. Main lift, the main lift again @ 5x10 (50% 1RM), and another accessory exercise for 5 sets.
•The Triumvirate. Main lift, and two assistance exercises - 5 sets each.
•I'm Not Doing Jack ****. Main lift, and nothing else.
•Periodization Bible by Dave Tate. Main lift, and 3 exercises - 5 x 10-20 reps each.
•Bodyweight. Main lift, and 2 bodyweight exercises such as the pull up, sit ups, dips, etc."
See the third option. Less assistance makes sense when you have other training going on. Of course, with focus on both strength and racing, your lifts may progress slower.
Yes! I do the "i'm not doing jack" version because I'm doing so much jack on my running
But I admittedly miss lifting days more and I progress less.
I also recently cut my calories down a bit (I'm trying to do a cut) so my ORMs are hurting baaaad. But I think it'll all work out in the end. I hope
I want to say also that lifting has improved my running bunches. My time is better than it has ever been and I have less joint pain! Yay!0 -
I want to say also that lifting has improved my running bunches. My time is better than it has ever been and I have less joint pain! Yay!
I'm surprised I don't see more of this when it pertains to running. I read a lengthy interview of multiple Olympic track coaches were they were talking about running, speed, and analyzing Usain Bolt's running style. What they said is that running speed is commonly misunderstood to come from how fast you move your legs but it's not. Running speed comes from the amount of force you push against the running surface. They actually said that in analyzing Bolt's running style he actually moved his legs slower than many other sprinters but he just applied that much more force which is why he was faster.
In-short, if you want to get faster at a marathon or sprint then why not do some lifting?0 -
I want to say also that lifting has improved my running bunches. My time is better than it has ever been and I have less joint pain! Yay!
agreed.
I've taken a full minute of my run times, and I'm noticeably stronger during climbs on my bike.0 -
weren't you looking for a hypertrophy routine like.....a week ago? now you're looking for powerlifting routines? did you switch goals or are you confused about the difference. i'm not taking a dig at you; i'm asking honestly. a lot of people on this side don't know the difference and then wind up disappointed when they don't hit their specific goals. hell, whatever an "accessory lift" is, I'm pretty sure I've never done one in my life.
No sweat. And an accessory lift are the other exercises that you do after your main lifts (Deads, OHP, bench, squats).
Yeah I was looking for HT, but it makes more sense to figure out the best way to get both. I'm listening to Layne Norton right now, and he advocates training everything 2x week, and having both Power and Hypertrophy involved. He also said that undulating periodization produces the best results, so I'm going to use 5/3/1 for the power, and adapt Norton's hypertrophy routine to the end of my week.
This way I train everything 2x a week which is what I wanted anyhow, and I am working on a balanced routine of Power and HT. There's also about as much variation as you can figure for this setup, so we'll see how it goes.0 -
Seems reasonable. That's pretty much what I do. Mon and Tues are heavy days, Thurs and Fri are light days. 5/3/1 should work just as well as anything else for your heavy days. Not being a 5/3/1 person, I have no idea how well it will integrate into having light days for half the week. SS/SL don't integrate well, IMO, but no clue on wendler0
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Seems reasonable. That's pretty much what I do. Mon and Tues are heavy days, Thurs and Fri are light days. 5/3/1 should work just as well as anything else for your heavy days. Not being a 5/3/1 person, I have no idea how well it will integrate into having light days for half the week. SS/SL don't integrate well, IMO, but no clue on wendler
The 5/3/1 deal is like this. Weight is based on percentages of a "training max", and focuses on 4 main lifts:
Week 1: 3 sets x 5 Reps, pyramid weight structure
Week 2: 3 sets x 3 Reps, increased pyramid weight structure
Week 3: 3 sets x 5/3/1 Reps, even higher pyramid weight structure
Week 4: 3 sets x 5 Reps, deload w/ very light pyramid weight structure
Increase training max by 5lbs & repeat for another cycle.
So I'm doing each main lift 2x week using the 5/3/1 structure, and working out 5 days a week with other lifts split between hypertrophy and power.0 -
I do follow some of Layne's teachings. I did do the PHAT routine for a while but now I am doing something similar to DavPul. Mon/Tues are heavy 4x5 with less volume and more rest time and Thurs and Fri are more hypertrophy based 3x8-12 with a little less rest and a little more volume.weren't you looking for a hypertrophy routine like.....a week ago? now you're looking for powerlifting routines? did you switch goals or are you confused about the difference. i'm not taking a dig at you; i'm asking honestly. a lot of people on this side don't know the difference and then wind up disappointed when they don't hit their specific goals. hell, whatever an "accessory lift" is, I'm pretty sure I've never done one in my life.
No sweat. And an accessory lift are the other exercises that you do after your main lifts (Deads, OHP, bench, squats).
Yeah I was looking for HT, but it makes more sense to figure out the best way to get both. I'm listening to Layne Norton right now, and he advocates training everything 2x week, and having both Power and Hypertrophy involved. He also said that undulating periodization produces the best results, so I'm going to use 5/3/1 for the power, and adapt Norton's hypertrophy routine to the end of my week.
This way I train everything 2x a week which is what I wanted anyhow, and I am working on a balanced routine of Power and HT. There's also about as much variation as you can figure for this setup, so we'll see how it goes.0 -
No one has mentioned the fact that Wendler posted a bodybuilding template of 5/3/1 on his website. I suggest sticking to that instead of experimenting:
http://www.jimwendler.com/2012/09/531-and-bodybuilding/0 -
oh I wanna weigh in on the 5/3/1 plus race training bit....
This is what I do...
If I'm training for a race (which I am, actually!) my plan is to do just the main lifts of 5/3/1 and then do my short runs on lift days. So I don't do the assistance work those days. I'll do my warm up, my work set, and that's it. I will do some of the other lifts depending how I feel (I don't ditch out on my rows ever, but I do ditch out on my leg curls/GHR's/hanging leg raises/and chin ups).
I wonder what people think of this?
I think it's ok to focus on two things at once But i'm also a single mom, so worrying about throwing more on my plate is like worrying about pouring a glass of water into the ocean
From http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/hardcore-look-at-jim-wendlers-5-3-1-powerlifting-system.html
"In the Wendler's 5/3/1 book, the following assistance plans are presented:
•Boring But Big. Main lift, the main lift again @ 5x10 (50% 1RM), and another accessory exercise for 5 sets.
•The Triumvirate. Main lift, and two assistance exercises - 5 sets each.
•I'm Not Doing Jack ****. Main lift, and nothing else.
•Periodization Bible by Dave Tate. Main lift, and 3 exercises - 5 x 10-20 reps each.
•Bodyweight. Main lift, and 2 bodyweight exercises such as the pull up, sit ups, dips, etc."
See the third option. Less assistance makes sense when you have other training going on. Of course, with focus on both strength and racing, your lifts may progress slower.
I am doing the Triumvirate and running on the days after OHP and Bench presses. Working out great so far! My run times are getting faster and I am running so much stronger on the hills!0 -
So I'm doing each main lift 2x week using the 5/3/1 structure, and working out 5 days a week with other lifts split between hypertrophy and power.
i take it back. this does not seem very reasonable0 -
Looks like a sure fire way to overtrain. Muscles need rest and recovery when they are worked hard.So I'm doing each main lift 2x week using the 5/3/1 structure, and working out 5 days a week with other lifts split between hypertrophy and power.
i take it back. this does not seem very reasonable0 -
Looks like a sure fire way to overtrain. Muscles need rest and recovery when they are worked hard.So I'm doing each main lift 2x week using the 5/3/1 structure, and working out 5 days a week with other lifts split between hypertrophy and power.
i take it back. this does not seem very reasonable
I Love when people ask for advice on a program, and then modify it. In a few weeks or months they'll be wondering why it isn't working.
Programs have been designed by people much smarter than us, and are proven to work on the majority if people that FOLLOW it.0 -
Looks like a sure fire way to overtrain. Muscles need rest and recovery when they are worked hard.So I'm doing each main lift 2x week using the 5/3/1 structure, and working out 5 days a week with other lifts split between hypertrophy and power.
i take it back. this does not seem very reasonable
I Love when people ask for advice on a program, and then modify it. In a few weeks or months they'll be wondering why it isn't working.
Programs have been designed by people much smarter than us, and are proven to work on the majority if people that FOLLOW it.
The other good one is when people give a program a month and then change it up, and say "it doesn't work".
Concepts like 5/3/1 are not that complex. You can interchange lifts as long as you are hitting the basics, and tweak your accessory work as you see fit. But the basic scheme of things is what makes it work, the loading, progression, deloading. That's the part you need to stick to.0 -
Hey guys this topic has been really constructive so far, lets keep it htat way. In the case of 5/3/1 he actually leaves it open on purpose, so you can do what you want with the basic template.
@staticentropy, gold man. Thanks I didn't know about this!
And about overtraining... back in high school I had never heard of overtraining, and in JROTC I would train on calithenics and running to failure every day, minus the weekend. I was fine, never had any chronic issues. Some days I was TIRED, but that was about it.
N.O.V.M.F. lol0 -
/thread0
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Hey guys this topic has been really constructive so far, lets keep it htat way. In the case of 5/3/1 he actually leaves it open on purpose, so you can do what you want with the basic template.
@staticentropy, gold man. Thanks I didn't know about this!
And about overtraining... back in high school I had never heard of overtraining, and in JROTC I would train on calithenics and running to failure every day, minus the weekend. I was fine, never had any chronic issues. Some days I was TIRED, but that was about it.
N.O.V.M.F. lol
Calithenics and running are totally different than heavy lifting. The burden on lifting heavy is places on your central nervous system. It needs time to recuperate and continually over doing it will cause problems at some point. You'll get weaker. Your resting heart rate will be up. Your heart will be thumping when you wake up in the morning. Do what you want, but be careful!0 -
Calithenics and running are totally different than heavy lifting. The burden on lifting heavy is places on your central nervous system. It needs time to recuperate and continually over doing it will cause problems at some point. You'll get weaker. Your resting heart rate will be up. Your heart will be thumping when you wake up in the morning. Do what you want, but be careful!
I see your point, but I'm not worried. 5/3/1 has a deload week that will be VERY easy, and I make sure to get as much sleep as possible, good nutrition (could always be better lol).
To be sure, here's the setup I was talking about:
Sun: 5/3/1 Chest & Legs + Lower rep Accessory
Mon: 5/3/1 Back & Shoulders + Lower rep Accessory
Tues: Rest
Wed: 5/3/1 Chest, + Hypertrophy Work for Chest & Arms (higher reps)
Thurs: 5/3/1 Legs + Hypertrophy Work (higher reps)
Fri: 5/3/1 Back & Shoulders + Hypertrophy Work (higher reps)
Sat: Rest
Thurs is an upperbody rest day, and legs get a break for most of the week.0 -
the only issue I see is working the shoulders the day after chest day. Bench press and OHP both use a lot of shoulders and triceps.0
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Calithenics and running are totally different than heavy lifting. The burden on lifting heavy is places on your central nervous system. It needs time to recuperate and continually over doing it will cause problems at some point. You'll get weaker. Your resting heart rate will be up. Your heart will be thumping when you wake up in the morning. Do what you want, but be careful!
I see your point, but I'm not worried. 5/3/1 has a deload week that will be VERY easy, and I make sure to get as much sleep as possible, good nutrition (could always be better lol).
To be sure, here's the setup I was talking about:
Sun: 5/3/1 Chest & Legs + Lower rep Accessory
Mon: 5/3/1 Back & Shoulders + Lower rep Accessory
Tues: Rest
Wed: 5/3/1 Chest, + Hypertrophy Work for Chest & Arms (higher reps)
Thurs: 5/3/1 Legs + Hypertrophy Work (higher reps)
Fri: 5/3/1 Back & Shoulders + Hypertrophy Work (higher reps)
Sat: Rest
Thurs is an upperbody rest day, and legs get a break for most of the week.
He is right, the stress placed on your CNS is far greater and the burnout from that is bad. I did it to myself twice and I was worn down for a couple weeks from it. But I was doing Westside at the time too, so a little different.
The 2 x 2 approach to 5/3/1 is interesting but I would be careful and not plan on doing it for long. You should definitely deload when you're doing this.the only issue I see is working the shoulders the day after chest day. Bench press and OHP both use a lot of shoulders and triceps
It's really not as bad as it seems but I don't think you can train that way for long either because it does get taxing. I followed a Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri split and it was A (Bench complex / Squat complex), B (Shoulder Complex / DL Complex), Rest Day, then repeat A and B. I think I did it for 12 weeks before I realized I needed to deload and reduce the frequency of those muscle groups a little.0 -
I don't have near the experience as some of these guys, nor am I as accomplished. But I do think I'm a little further into this than you are... so take this for what it's worth.
IMO, overtraining is a very real concern, but not one most people need to be overly worried about. I think it takes more effort/intensity more consistently to really over tax the CNS than most of us give, even when we think we are going hard and lifting heavy.
I do think the program as you're currently talking is a recipe for over training... but if you can sustain that type of program, you probably aren't pushing yourself hard enough to get to that point. Again, IMO.
I do agree with whoever commented before about programs being designed by people far more knowledgeable/experienced than us, yet here we are tweaking them and then invariably end up complaining about poor results somewhere down the road. Yes, that most definitely happens. That said, I'm not one who believes in blindly following everything to a T exactly as it's written. Understand a program, understand why it works, but feel free to tweak to suit your needs/goals/preferences AS LONG AS you don't tweak the core of the program, and wendler's approach/philosophy supports that.
Lastly, I also think it takes some time to learn how to lift heavy and really get the most out of your sessions. I'm not sure what your history is, but given whats been said in this thread, I'm guessing you're still fairly new to serious, programmed lifting. As you work through the program, especially if you stick with it for several months, you'll see why it's such a good program. There is some periodization built in, there is progression built in, etc.
I'm all for over thinking things, but this is one time when I think you need to turn off the computer, put down the pen and paper, and go lift some weight. Follow the program for a couple of months THEN think about how you want to tweak it. You're trying to change something before you've even done it.0 -
I don't have near the experience as some of these guys, nor am I as accomplished. But I do think I'm a little further into this than you are... so take this for what it's worth.
IMO, overtraining is a very real concern, but not one most people need to be overly worried about. I think it takes more effort/intensity more consistently to really over tax the CNS than most of us give, even when we think we are going hard and lifting heavy.
I do think the program as you're currently talking is a recipe for over training... but if you can sustain that type of program, you probably aren't pushing yourself hard enough to get to that point. Again, IMO.
I do agree with whoever commented before about programs being designed by people far more knowledgeable/experienced than us, yet here we are tweaking them and then invariably end up complaining about poor results somewhere down the road. Yes, that most definitely happens. That said, I'm not one who believes in blindly following everything to a T exactly as it's written. Understand a program, understand why it works, but feel free to tweak to suit your needs/goals/preferences AS LONG AS you don't tweak the core of the program, and wendler's approach/philosophy supports that.
Lastly, I also think it takes some time to learn how to lift heavy and really get the most out of your sessions. I'm not sure what your history is, but given whats been said in this thread, I'm guessing you're still fairly new to serious, programmed lifting. As you work through the program, especially if you stick with it for several months, you'll see why it's such a good program. There is some periodization built in, there is progression built in, etc.
I'm all for over thinking things, but this is one time when I think you need to turn off the computer, put down the pen and paper, and go lift some weight. Follow the program for a couple of months THEN think about how you want to tweak it. You're trying to change something before you've even done it. 0 -
I'm all for over thinking things, but this is one time when I think you need to turn off the computer, put down the pen and paper, and go lift some weight. Follow the program for a couple of months THEN think about how you want to tweak it. You're trying to change something before you've even done it.0
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Day 1. I'll be sore tomorrow!
Parallel box squat, work sets of 225x5, 255x5, 290x10
Good mornings 185x5x8
Roman chair back extensions 5x12 no weight yet
Roman chair situps 5x13 no weight yet. super setted these
My hams are fried from the volume of good mornings. Weight was ok, could use more but wanted to start easy.0 -
I've just completed my first week of the new routine, and I feel good. I'm completely spent (in a good way) by the end of my workouts, but it's not feeling worse than anything I've done before in sports. Doing excess 5/3/1 reps to 10 or more if I can, with the exception of the bench (only 7). Next week will be week 3 of 5/3/1, Cycle 1, so lets see how that last set at 95% goes...
Of course it's too soon to talk about gains, but anyone considering 5/3/1 should definitely give it a look. The routine pushes you and it feels great. You can also take it easy and enjoy the ride knowing that you will always be progressing. Naturally, this week was all challening and I hit PRs. Next week I'll hit more.
Anyhow, the 5 day routine is working well so far, and I'm enjoying the pump from the new hypertrophy protocols, though we'll see how well they turn into actual gains. Time will tell.
///EDIT:
Once again for reference, here's my split. It's basically Layne Norton's PHAT using 5/3/1 for the power stuff:
Sun: 5/3/1 Chest & Legs + Lower rep Accessory
Mon: 5/3/1 Back & Shoulders + Lower rep Accessory
Tues: Rest
Wed: 5/3/1 Chest, + Hypertrophy Work for Chest & Arms (higher reps)
Thurs: 5/3/1 Legs + Hypertrophy Work (higher reps)
Fri: 5/3/1 Back & Shoulders + Hypertrophy Work (higher reps)
Sat: Rest0 -
I've just completed my first week of the new routine, and I feel good. I'm completely spent (in a good way) by the end of my workouts, but it's not feeling worse than anything I've done before in sports. Doing excess 5/3/1 reps to 10 or more if I can, with the exception of the bench (only 7). Next week will be week 3 of 5/3/1, Cycle 1, so lets see how that last set at 95% goes...
Of course it's too soon to talk about gains, but anyone considering 5/3/1 should definitely give it a look. The routine pushes you and it feels great. You can also take it easy and enjoy the ride knowing that you will always be progressing. Naturally, this week was all challening and I hit PRs. Next week I'll hit more.
Anyhow, the 5 day routine is working well so far, and I'm enjoying the pump from the new hypertrophy protocols, though we'll see how well they turn into actual gains. Time will tell.
See, just needed to try it and give it a shot. 5-day routine? I thought you were doing 2 x 2's?0 -
Yessir, I was. But then I read Layne's PHAT article and tweaked it to a 5 day routine. See the edit to my last post.0
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Yessir, I was. But then I read Layne's PHAT article and tweaked it to a 5 day routine. See the edit to my last post.
Interesting. I would almost think that Chest and Back would go better together and then do legs and shoulders. But if it works... How long are your workouts taking?0 -
See, just needed to try it and give it a shot. 5-day routine? I thought you were doing 2 x 2's?
that was last week. he changes routines every week. didn't you get the memo?0 -
See, just needed to try it and give it a shot. 5-day routine? I thought you were doing 2 x 2's?
that was last week. he changes routines every week. didn't you get the memo?
I wonder what he'll pick next week.0 -
Not trying to hijack, but I finished my 1st week too. I combined deadlift and press day together to see how it would work. It took a little long but work load wise, it wasn't too bad. I supersetted some of the assistance work, hang cleans with standing db press, and ab work with rear delt raises, to save time.
I got good results on my top weight sets. 290x10 on squats, 210x10 on bench, 335x8 on deadlifts, and 120x9 on overhead press.
Assistance was like this:
squat day- good mornings 185x5x8, back extensions 5x12, roman chair situps 5x13. My lower abs were sore until Thursday from this Monday workout!
bench day- incline db press 50x5x10, barbell row 135x5x10, band pulls 2x15 (for rotator cuffs)
deadlift day- hang cleans 135x5x3, shrugs 275x5x10, roman chair situps holding a 10lb plate 5x12
press day- db standing press 40x5x10 rear delt raise w/ db's 20x5x10
Looking forward to what the week of 3's brings.0
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