5/3/1

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Replies

  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    How come? Honest question, not trying to argue... Is there a real reason, or just personal preference?

    I've got plenty of grip strength for normal every day life... I can carry my kids around, I can move furniture, etc etc. It's not an issue for me when racing, nor am I especially concerned with my wrist/hand/forearm physique. It's not an issue for me on weighted pull-ups, rows, or any other pull lift, only deads.

    I dont' see the problem for the average lifter using them on heavier sets

    If is some kind of medical condition or real physical limitation that kind of requires use of straps then I can completely understand that. Generally speaking for those without that type of limitation, the point of strength training is to get stronger. We can argue that a belt makes the lift easier but there's a definitely safety reason for using a belt when lifting at and above a certain % of weight. There's no real safety reason for using a strap, it's a definite crutch. If your grip is a weak point in your lifting then the lifter should work on their grip strength by adding such accessory work to your session. If your lower back is a weak point in your squat are you going to wear a Metal Squat Suit so you can keep progressing? Not likely, you're going to add some Good Mornings, RDL's, or something to work on your posterior chain. So why would you wear wrist straps? If your wrist is truly a limiting factor in progression AND it's not a medical-related issue why not add an accessory exercise or two that will help your grip strength?
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    How come? Honest question, not trying to argue... Is there a real reason, or just personal preference?

    I've got plenty of grip strength for normal every day life... I can carry my kids around, I can move furniture, etc etc. It's not an issue for me when racing, nor am I especially concerned with my wrist/hand/forearm physique. It's not an issue for me on weighted pull-ups, rows, or any other pull lift, only deads.

    I dont' see the problem for the average lifter using them on heavier sets

    If is some kind of medical condition or real physical limitation that kind of requires use of straps then I can completely understand that. Generally speaking for those without that type of limitation, the point of strength training is to get stronger. We can argue that a belt makes the lift easier but there's a definitely safety reason for using a belt when lifting at and above a certain % of weight. There's no real safety reason for using a strap, it's a definite crutch. If your grip is a weak point in your lifting then the lifter should work on their grip strength by adding such accessory work to your session. If your lower back is a weak point in your squat are you going to wear a Metal Squat Suit so you can keep progressing? Not likely, you're going to add some Good Mornings, RDL's, or something to work on your posterior chain. So why would you wear wrist straps? If your wrist is truly a limiting factor in progression AND it's not a medical-related issue why not add an accessory exercise or two that will help your grip strength?

    Not everyone lifts simply to get stronger. Obviously that's part of it, but some people lift strictly for physique, or to be a faster runner, stronger cyclist, etc.

    As I said before... grip strength, or lack there of, has no bearing on my goals, my racing, or my daily life. Sure, using straps may not be as pure or whatever, but if it works within my goals, what's the problem?

    Or maybe I'm being close minded, or just missing your bigger point. I'm not trying to be argumentative, hopefully it doesn't come off that way.
  • grantdumas7
    grantdumas7 Posts: 802 Member
    I don't get the hate on straps.
    What if you've already blown out your grip, but the rest of your body needs more deadlifts for appropriate training volume? Just throw it out the window and slow down deadlift progress because 'lol straps sux'
    I agree with you. I believe straps or versa grips and or chalk has it's place when doing heavy deads or heavy barbell rows. You don't want your grip to be a limiting factor on how many reps or how much weight you can use. Just do separate grip strength work like farmer walks or barbell holds.
  • Cait_Sidhe
    Cait_Sidhe Posts: 3,150 Member
    Bumping this because I need to READ ALL THE THINGS. Later, when I have time.
  • Lyadeia
    Lyadeia Posts: 4,603 Member
    Tagging to read later. I have been doing something similar to 5/3/1 and loving it...just curious what others have to say about it.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Regarding straps, I think it's important to consider an individuals training goals.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    I don't get the hate on straps.
    What if you've already blown out your grip, but the rest of your body needs more deadlifts for appropriate training volume? Just throw it out the window and slow down deadlift progress because 'lol straps sux'
    I agree with you. I believe straps or versa grips and or chalk has it's place when doing heavy deads or heavy barbell rows. You don't want your grip to be a limiting factor on how many reps or how much weight you can use. Just do separate grip strength work like farmer walks or barbell holds.

    Amen.

    I almost exclusively use my straps on barbell shrugs (over/under won't work your traps out evenly), and occasionally for dumbbell rows (can't use an over/under at all)... not a big deal. I don't start with straps or count on them, I just put them on if my grip starts to fail because I DO finish all my sets. If I'm putting in the time and effort, I'm not going to let an exercise go just because I'm feeling a little S.O.V. that day.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    To each his own I guess. I guess I'm just vary fortunate to have very good grip strength and it doesn't hinder my progress. I wish I could trade that for genetics that favor bench pressing instead. LOL.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Hey JNick I just saw your goals for the year on your profile... 200lbs OHP? That's sick. Where are you at so far?
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Hey JNick I just saw your goals for the year on your profile... 200lbs OHP? That's sick. Where are you at so far?

    Yeah, I need to update that section of my profile. That was back when I was still doing 5/3/1 actually. My OHP 1RM is actually at 175lbs and this morning for a "fun" extra workout I push-pressed 185lbs for 2RM, might have gotten a 3rd.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Heading into Cycle 4 with the 5/3/1 + PHAT routine. Very good stuff, nothing to complain about.

    Only changes:

    - Leaving Power days (5/3/1 main lifts) to Days 1 (bench/squat) & 2 (press/dl) , and doing big lifts for 60% weight and more reps on days 3, 4 & 5. Not because the work was too much actually, but because I want a more balanced routine, and the heavy OHP and Bench was messing with my bad left shoulder.

    - Deadlifting only once a week, and then leaving my lower back alone (still pretty weak lower back). I could manage two a week, but then I ended up pulling my back 3 times in the past few months while just stretching (oddly enough never hurt for the lifts). I'm pretty sure all the deads just aggrivated that and made it more likely to occur.

    To the other guys who were thinking about starting up a 5/3/1 routine, how are things coming along?
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Nice update.

    Do you have bands that you can do some pre-hab work? I posted some video links in that other thread you had going about OHP. Those seriously help with shoulder issues. Like I said, I really thought I was going to need surgery on mine but those excercises saved my *kitten*.

    Sounds like you need to do some posterior chain accessory work. Big help with my back too. Back extensions for high reps, Good Mornings (start with the bar if you have to) for sets of 8-10 reps, Pull-Throughs are great, DB or KB Swings can help. They should not only help your back but strengthen your Squat and DL. Good support for the OHP too.
  • danimalkeys
    danimalkeys Posts: 982 Member
    I'm about to start cycle 4 too, on Monday. I still have my press workout to get in today. I gave up on deadlifts for now. The rep out stuff was killing me. I should have known that, even when I was powerlifting and pulling in the mid/upper 500's, I never did more than 3 reps on a work set, regardless of the weight used, and usually did singles or doubles.

    What I'm going to do is drop back and start over with them and instead of repping out the last set, just do the prescribed reps for that session, the thought being that any deadlifting is better than no deadlifting. I was hurting for a full week after doing 10 reps on a 5 rep day, its' just too much volume for me and it fried my lower back, to the point where I thought I was injured. I went on vacation right after that session and had some time to recover but my back was bugging me the whole time we were gone.

    I'm still getting a lot more reps than the routine calls for on all the lifts. It'll probably take me til cycle 6-7 before they come down to near the target. I'm making good progress, from the weights I used to test for the 1RM estimates, I'm either up weight or have added reps with that same weight. My test weight/reps were:
    squat 315x6
    bench 245x4
    dead 375x5
    press 135x5

    currently I'm at:
    squat 345x5 (this was a 1 rep week)
    bench 247.5 x6 (another 1 rep week)
    press 135x9 (3 rep week)

    when I stopped deads my best was 375x8 (1 rep week on cycle 2).
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Yeah I had a really wierd day yesterday. I was squatting, this was Wk 3 of the cycle, and I was only able to rep 235 for 6. I might have been able to 7 or maybe 8, but I called it quits because my back has been such a concern. (incidentally I pulled it a bit later doing decline plate-loaded leg press). I actually needed to hit 13 reps to beat my previous PR, and in this one case I had over a week of rest from squatting.

    I was consciously going for lower in my squats though (I think I'm finally figuring out how to get lower, safely), and my squats on Sunday mornings are usually better than my squats on Thursday evenings.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Yeah I had a really wierd day yesterday. I was squatting, this was Wk 3 of the cycle, and I was only able to rep 235 for 6. I might have been able to 7 or maybe 8, but I called it quits because my back has been such a concern. (incidentally I pulled it a bit later doing decline plate-loaded leg press). I actually needed to hit 13 reps to beat my previous PR, and in this one case I had over a week of rest from squatting.

    I was consciously going for lower in my squats though (I think I'm finally figuring out how to get lower, safely), and my squats on Sunday mornings are usually better than my squats on Thursday evenings.

    Checkout "So You Think You Can Squat" on YouTube, great video. Like I said before, sounds like you need to do some work on your lower back and hamstrings.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Yeah I had a really wierd day yesterday. I was squatting, this was Wk 3 of the cycle, and I was only able to rep 235 for 6. I might have been able to 7 or maybe 8, but I called it quits because my back has been such a concern. (incidentally I pulled it a bit later doing decline plate-loaded leg press). I actually needed to hit 13 reps to beat my previous PR, and in this one case I had over a week of rest from squatting.

    I was consciously going for lower in my squats though (I think I'm finally figuring out how to get lower, safely), and my squats on Sunday mornings are usually better than my squats on Thursday evenings.

    Checkout "So You Think You Can Squat" on YouTube, great video. Like I said before, sounds like you need to do some work on your lower back and hamstrings.

    Oh yeah, I've seen those videos. Great.
  • jhc7324
    jhc7324 Posts: 200 Member
    To the other guys who were thinking about starting up a 5/3/1 routine, how are things coming along?

    I start cycle 3 tomorrow morning. On my 1+ days in cycle 2 I was hitting 7-9 reps on all the lifts except OHP. where I think I was at 3, so I have quite a few more cycles before I need to worry about stalling.

    Grip issues have been my nemesis on deadlifts for quite a while, and I've added a bunch of assistance work to help me there. Farmer's Walks, Hanging Leg Raises, I even think heavier Kroc Rows are helping me out there. I've definitely noticed a difference in grip issues, but still feel like its holding me back a little. We'll see how it goes on Wednesday.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    To the other guys who were thinking about starting up a 5/3/1 routine, how are things coming along?

    I start cycle 3 tomorrow morning. On my 1+ days in cycle 2 I was hitting 7-9 reps on all the lifts except OHP. where I think I was at 3, so I have quite a few more cycles before I need to worry about stalling.

    Grip issues have been my nemesis on deadlifts for quite a while, and I've added a bunch of assistance work to help me there. Farmer's Walks, Hanging Leg Raises, I even think heavier Kroc Rows are helping me out there. I've definitely noticed a difference in grip issues, but still feel like its holding me back a little. We'll see how it goes on Wednesday.

    Good for you in working on your grip. Are you having grip issues with a mixed grip or just double overhand grip? Another good assistance exercise on deadlift day is the Snatch-Grip Deadlift. It really works the grip well and also hits your upper back pretty hard and helps with the deadlift in general.
  • jhc7324
    jhc7324 Posts: 200 Member
    To the other guys who were thinking about starting up a 5/3/1 routine, how are things coming along?

    I start cycle 3 tomorrow morning. On my 1+ days in cycle 2 I was hitting 7-9 reps on all the lifts except OHP. where I think I was at 3, so I have quite a few more cycles before I need to worry about stalling.

    Grip issues have been my nemesis on deadlifts for quite a while, and I've added a bunch of assistance work to help me there. Farmer's Walks, Hanging Leg Raises, I even think heavier Kroc Rows are helping me out there. I've definitely noticed a difference in grip issues, but still feel like its holding me back a little. We'll see how it goes on Wednesday.

    Good for you in working on your grip. Are you having grip issues with a mixed grip or just double overhand grip? Another good assistance exercise on deadlift day is the Snatch-Grip Deadlift. It really works the grip well and also hits your upper back pretty hard and helps with the deadlift in general.
    I use mixed grip. I'm not even that sure my grip is the issue on deads, but at my work sets, I always seem to feel like I could do more reps if my grip wasn't giving out. I suppose it could easily be that I'm just hitting my maxes there mistaking the overall fatigue for grip failure, but even if that's the case I don't think doing grip specific work can hurt.

    My wife commented that the grip work seems to be working as I was giving her a back massage the other day, so its not all in vain.

    I'll look into the snatch grip deadlift.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    To the other guys who were thinking about starting up a 5/3/1 routine, how are things coming along?

    I start cycle 3 tomorrow morning. On my 1+ days in cycle 2 I was hitting 7-9 reps on all the lifts except OHP. where I think I was at 3, so I have quite a few more cycles before I need to worry about stalling.

    Grip issues have been my nemesis on deadlifts for quite a while, and I've added a bunch of assistance work to help me there. Farmer's Walks, Hanging Leg Raises, I even think heavier Kroc Rows are helping me out there. I've definitely noticed a difference in grip issues, but still feel like its holding me back a little. We'll see how it goes on Wednesday.

    Good for you in working on your grip. Are you having grip issues with a mixed grip or just double overhand grip? Another good assistance exercise on deadlift day is the Snatch-Grip Deadlift. It really works the grip well and also hits your upper back pretty hard and helps with the deadlift in general.
    I use mixed grip. I'm not even that sure my grip is the issue on deads, but at my work sets, I always seem to feel like I could do more reps if my grip wasn't giving out. I suppose it could easily be that I'm just hitting my maxes there mistaking the overall fatigue for grip failure, but even if that's the case I don't think doing grip specific work can hurt.

    My wife commented that the grip work seems to be working as I was giving her a back massage the other day, so its not all in vain.

    I'll look into the snatch grip deadlift.

    That's good to hear. I don't have any grip issues with any exercises except the Snatch Grip Deadlift. That exercises tests my grip strength like no other exercise. My grip strength definitely limits how much I can lift for that movement. Last week I had to do 3 sets of 8 reps with 265 lbs and I wanted to die. I seriously almost dropped the barbell during my last set. Definitely give that exercise a try for 3 to 6 weeks and you'll see what I mean. Start light too, like 45% to 50% of your 1RM.
  • __delete
    __delete Posts: 245 Member
    New guy checking in. Planning on starting 5/3/1 tomorrow, BBB style, at least for the first cycle. Coming over from doing SL, and taking a few weeks off.
  • jhc7324
    jhc7324 Posts: 200 Member
    That's good to hear. I don't have any grip issues with any exercises except the Snatch Grip Deadlift. That exercises tests my grip strength like no other exercise. My grip strength definitely limits how much I can lift for that movement. Last week I had to do 3 sets of 8 reps with 265 lbs and I wanted to die. I seriously almost dropped the barbell during my last set. Definitely give that exercise a try for 3 to 6 weeks and you'll see what I mean. Start light too, like 45% to 50% of your 1RM.

    I worked it into my deadlift workout this morning. My workset was @ 240, and I was doing snatch grip with 135 just to get a feel for it. The first set, I was thinking "it doesn't seem too hard to grip this". I was supersetting with hanging leg raises and the farmer's walks though. I got 1 rep on the 4th set at that weight before my grip nearly gave out and that ended my accessory work this morning. I like the lift though and I'll keep using it. Thanks for the recommendation.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Alright, so how about Beyond 5/3/1? This guy just introduced a whole lot of new **** (from the first edition).

    Nevermind the other routines he suggests, because I already have my own setup. But has anyone tried out "First Set Last" and "Joker Sets"?

    Have you seen any improvements, and has your assistance work suffered from the extra load? The Joker sets especially would be upping my game bigtime... even if your increase is just 5%, you will be attempting your 1RM each week.

    Also to be clear, I am not doing the 5/3/1 scheme twice a week anylonger. Only once. The second time I do the lift durring the week, it's at 60% of training max for 10-12 reps (hypertrophy work).
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    Alright, so how about Beyond 5/3/1? This guy just introduced a whole lot of new **** (from the first edition).

    Nevermind the other routines he suggests, because I already have my own setup. But has anyone tried out "First Set Last" and "Joker Sets"?

    Have you seen any improvements, and has your assistance work suffered from the extra load? The Joker sets especially would be upping my game bigtime... even if your increase is just 5%, you will be attempting your 1RM each week.

    Also to be clear, I am not doing the 5/3/1 scheme twice a week anylonger. Only once. The second time I do the lift durring the week, it's at 60% of training max for 10-12 reps (hypertrophy work).

    Just curious how you judge a programs effectiveness when you are constantly changing it? Either switching routines entirely or tweaking a boxed program like 5/3/1...
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    That's good to hear. I don't have any grip issues with any exercises except the Snatch Grip Deadlift. That exercises tests my grip strength like no other exercise. My grip strength definitely limits how much I can lift for that movement. Last week I had to do 3 sets of 8 reps with 265 lbs and I wanted to die. I seriously almost dropped the barbell during my last set. Definitely give that exercise a try for 3 to 6 weeks and you'll see what I mean. Start light too, like 45% to 50% of your 1RM.

    I worked it into my deadlift workout this morning. My workset was @ 240, and I was doing snatch grip with 135 just to get a feel for it. The first set, I was thinking "it doesn't seem too hard to grip this". I was supersetting with hanging leg raises and the farmer's walks though. I got 1 rep on the 4th set at that weight before my grip nearly gave out and that ended my accessory work this morning. I like the lift though and I'll keep using it. Thanks for the recommendation.

    That's good to hear. Yeah, at first it's definitely like... this is a little light, but then once you start doing the reps it's more like, how the hell am I going to finish my reps. LOL. Stick with it for a while for sure. It's great for grip strength and really overall improved my deadlift strength. It forces you to get a little lower and really puts some good stress on your upper back.
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
    Alright, so how about Beyond 5/3/1? This guy just introduced a whole lot of new **** (from the first edition).

    Nevermind the other routines he suggests, because I already have my own setup. But has anyone tried out "First Set Last" and "Joker Sets"?

    Have you seen any improvements, and has your assistance work suffered from the extra load? The Joker sets especially would be upping my game bigtime... even if your increase is just 5%, you will be attempting your 1RM each week.

    Also to be clear, I am not doing the 5/3/1 scheme twice a week anylonger. Only once. The second time I do the lift durring the week, it's at 60% of training max for 10-12 reps (hypertrophy work).

    Just curious how you judge a programs effectiveness when you are constantly changing it? Either switching routines entirely or tweaking a boxed program like 5/3/1...

    this.
  • FrnkLft
    FrnkLft Posts: 1,821 Member
    Alright, so how about Beyond 5/3/1? This guy just introduced a whole lot of new **** (from the first edition).

    Nevermind the other routines he suggests, because I already have my own setup. But has anyone tried out "First Set Last" and "Joker Sets"?

    Have you seen any improvements, and has your assistance work suffered from the extra load? The Joker sets especially would be upping my game bigtime... even if your increase is just 5%, you will be attempting your 1RM each week.

    Also to be clear, I am not doing the 5/3/1 scheme twice a week anylonger. Only once. The second time I do the lift durring the week, it's at 60% of training max for 10-12 reps (hypertrophy work).

    Just curious how you judge a programs effectiveness when you are constantly changing it? Either switching routines entirely or tweaking a boxed program like 5/3/1...

    Alright, I'm probably an idiot for giving you the time of day on this one because I've already explained it to you directly, but I've only ever used 2 programs in the whole 9 months I've been lifting, and I've been doing Layne Norton's PHAT routine for the past 3 months straight. Prior to that it was straight linear progression, still heavy weight, but I didn't want that after I read more.

    Sun, M: Power / W,T,F: Hypertrophy

    I use the 5/3/1 protocol for the first two day's main lifts, the power days, because it is a great, simple system with graduated and programmed progression, and so far it has been excellent. Basically I substitute Layne Norton's protocol for for the assistance work, which Wendler says you can do whatever you like for assistance. And the extra hypertrophy days ensure I get the 2x wk that I want. This is not a bastardization of the program.

    And this latest question/change about Joker Sets and First Set Last? ... came straight from Wendler, in his latest book amending the basics of his own strength program. Which is why I asked about it.

    Do you have anything helpful to contribute about Joker sets and First Set Last?
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    Alright, so how about Beyond 5/3/1? This guy just introduced a whole lot of new **** (from the first edition).

    Nevermind the other routines he suggests, because I already have my own setup. But has anyone tried out "First Set Last" and "Joker Sets"?

    Have you seen any improvements, and has your assistance work suffered from the extra load? The Joker sets especially would be upping my game bigtime... even if your increase is just 5%, you will be attempting your 1RM each week.

    Also to be clear, I am not doing the 5/3/1 scheme twice a week anylonger. Only once. The second time I do the lift durring the week, it's at 60% of training max for 10-12 reps (hypertrophy work).

    Just curious how you judge a programs effectiveness when you are constantly changing it? Either switching routines entirely or tweaking a boxed program like 5/3/1...

    Alright, I'm probably an idiot for giving you the time of day on this one because I've already explained it to you directly, but I've only ever used 2 programs in the whole 9 months I've been lifting, and I've been doing Layne Norton's PHAT routine for the past 3 months straight. Prior to that it was straight linear progression, still heavy weight, but I didn't want that after I read more.

    I use the 5/3/1 protocol for the first two days, the power days, because it is a great, simple system with graduated and programmed progression, and so far it has been excellent. Basically I substitute Layne Norton's program for the assistance work, and to make sure I hit everything twice a week. Even Wendler says you can do whatever you like for assistance.

    And this latest question/change about Joker Sets and First Set Last? ... came straight from Wendler, in his latest book amending the basics of his own strength program. Which is why I asked about it. Do you have anything to contribute about Joker sets and First Set Last?

    Sorry. It was an honest question because I've been guilty of doing the same thing in the past - over thinking, over complicating, etc and I just end up spinning my wheels.

    This thread is neither short nor new, so if I forgot about a previous post that already answered this, my apologies.
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member


    Do you have anything helpful to contribute about Joker sets and First Set Last?

    dude, relax. it was a legit question. this thread has been going on for a few months now, and been pretty helpful to a lot of people.

    and just like jackson, i've been guilty of trying to do too much at once. if it's working for you, great. but on the surface, you do seem to be doing too much.
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
    Dude, I totally forgot to get Wendler's new e-book on 5/3/1. How is it? I don't I'll switch back but I always love the extra education from experienced guys like Wendler. How much was it?