"You can't build muscle on a calorie deficit"
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Based on calculations and body fat measurements done with my trainer, over the last 16 months I have put on appx 10 lbs of lean mass while losing 80 lbs overall.
It was measured with pincers and math. And an ultrasound and different math.
I fully get that "lean mass" is not solely muscle. I also get that for a lean person, athlete, or weightlifter, that this is simply not possible.
But keep in mind, a person 100 lbs overweight is carrying around a 350,000 calorie surplus - at all times. Those are no less valid than food as an energy source.
Well, if you had an ultrasound done then I'll defer to you. When were the dates of the two ultrasound measurements? And what was the weight/composition difference in between the two ultrasounds?
I only ask to clarify if you were actually gaining lean mass during a caloric deficit or, an alternative possibility, the two occurred into distinct phases. In other words, there were times during the 16 months when you WEREN'T losing fat but instead was gaining lean mass... whereas there were more times during the 16 months where you were losing fat but WEREN'T gaining lean mass.
I highly doubt two ultrasounds could give you enough data to be able to determine if at "times" within the weight loss period there were some anabolic states that happened. Wouldn't you have to be monitoring anabolic/catatonic states to be able to really see on a detailed level what was going on? I've read alot of forums on BB and others about folks calorie cycling to try to force their states to try to spur the leanest possible muscular gain, and alot of them can't really get it to work well....if the pros can't be consistent with it, I sure as hell know I can't.
My claim is not that I'm manipulating catabolic and anabolic states, or that the gains and losses did or did not occur at the same times.
My simple claim is .. that for the last 16 months, I have been consistently eating at a deficit, and have made small gains in lean body mass, using the surplus calories from a massive amount of stored fat to fuel a portion of the process.
Not trying to discredit it....really I'm not...I'm curious in what it would take to actually be able to measure the specifics that happened to "allow' that to happen.0 -
Strength gains =/= sarcoplasmic hypertorphy. Strength gains are neuromuscular adaptations and not due to muscle mass gains.
However, whether you can or cannot gain on a deficit is a bit of a moot point imo. Strength training while in a deficit will help at least maintain LBM, increase strength, improve bone density and give a slew of other benefits.
Lol but the dude said he had also gained muscle as well as gained strength. So you just used big words to basically agree with him.
Lolno. Tip: look up what those 'big words' mean before making statements like ^^that.
I know what they mean. I did human anatomy at uni.
Skeletal muscle/neural responses blah blah
Then why did you make your comment if you understand...as I was not saying what you said I was?0 -
My claim is not that I'm manipulating catabolic and anabolic states, or that the gains and losses did or did not occur at the same times.
My simple claim is .. that for the last 16 months, I have been consistently eating at a deficit, and have made small gains in lean body mass, using the surplus calories from a massive amount of stored fat to fuel a portion of the process.
Not trying to discredit it....really I'm not...I'm curious in what it would take to actually be able to measure the specifics that happened to "allow' that to happen.
It would take micromanaging. Constant tests, monitoring, logging and data analysis.
I dont go to that level of granularity, and I probably never will.0 -
Ok I appreciate your opinion but may I put forward my argument:
I have this dress that has sleeves which stop half way down my biceps. I had biggggg flabby arms that when I raised my arm rolled over the sleeves. Ew.
I eat 1200kcals I lost weight, didn't do any weights. My arms no longer rolled over my sleeves (again ew) they were looser.
I started weight training (still at 1200kcal). Noooowwww my sleeves are tight again, because I have muscle instead of fat.
It's been there for a while now. How'd that happen?
Perhaps... your shirt shrunk. :laugh: Or you're counting your calories incorrectly.
Or, depending on what margin of error we're talking about for your shirt sleeves, you're retaining water. Since you're noticing a difference, and it seems unlikely that you gained... say, 1" around your arms while lifting and not eating all that much, I'm going to suggest it's one of these other explanations.0 -
Then why did you make your comment if you understand...as I was not saying what you said I was?
He said he gained muscle and gained strength. He wasn't saying that he had gained strength because of the muscle. Which is what I was presuming you meant by 'Strength gains =/= sarcoplasmic hypertorphy'.0 -
Then why did you make your comment if you understand...as I was not saying what you said I was?
He said he gained muscle and gained strength. He wasn't saying that he had gained strength because of the muscle. Which is what I was presuming you meant by 'Strength gains =/= sarcoplasmic hypertorphy'.
/smh
=/= means does not equal.
He assumed that he had gained muscle due to strength, I was correcting him.0 -
BUMP0
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Strength gains =/= sarcoplasmic hypertorphy. Strength gains are neuromuscular adaptations and not due to muscle mass gains.
However, whether you can or cannot gain on a deficit is a bit of a moot point imo. Strength training while in a deficit will help at least maintain LBM, increase strength, improve bone density and give a slew of other benefits.
Lol but the dude said he had also gained muscle as well as gained strength. So you just used big words to basically agree with him.
Oh no, big words..... run for the hills!
But seriously, strength at a given muscle mass is a skill. You teach your muscles how to operate more efficiently. Thus you get stronger by neuromuscular adaption without getting bigger.
Obviously this can only go on for so long and when you reach a certain level of neuromuscular adaption, the only way you'll get stronger is to increase your mass. Then you need to eat over TDEE to make that happen.
It's not to say it's impossible to gain some size at a deficit, but you have to account for all the special circumstances already listed in this thread. For most people it's not going to happen (or those gains will be so small that they are basically unnoticeable). Increased definition due to retention of LBM and fat-loss produces the illusion of muscle growth. But basically you're just revealing what you already had (give or take some grammes worth here and there)0 -
It would take micromanaging. Constant tests, monitoring, logging and data analysis.
I dont go to that level of granularity, and I probably never will.
It's been done on that level of course. And if I recall, the end result was that it's possible... but not to any noticeable level. We're talking maybe a net increase of 1% in lean mass, if any. I highly, highly doubt that gaining 1 lb of lean mass is going to be VISUALLY noticeable for anyone.
That being the case, anyone claims, "LOOK at the muscle I gained while on calorie deficit" is quite rightly met with some skeptcism./smh
=/= means does not equal.
He assumed that he had gained muscle due to strength, I was correcting him.
You should've used != :laugh:0 -
So...If I have 50 extra pounds of FAT on my body and I Start lifting weights but eat only 500 Calories of lets say 75g of Pure protein. Even though Im eating a severe deficit. some of you are suggesting that because I'm 50lbs over weight my body will use that EXCESS to build muscle?
Legitimate question here. Is a caloric intake surplus necessary if you have EXCESS body fat?0 -
Perhaps... your shirt shrunk. :laugh: Or you're counting your calories incorrectly.
Or, depending on what margin of error we're talking about for your shirt sleeves, you're retaining water. Since you're noticing a difference, and it seems unlikely that you gained... say, 1" around your arms while lifting and not eating all that much, I'm going to suggest it's one of these other explanations.
Lol I hope not, I like that dress!
But there's muscle there where there was once just thinner arms. Unless..........water is stored in the shaped of muscle?
Oh come on, I'm not lying to you - I'm being very honest, there was no muscle and now there is and you're just trying to poo poo my argument with WATER WEIGHT on my arms. Piffle!0 -
So...If I have 50 extra pounds of FAT on my body and I Start lifting weights but eat only 500 Calories of lets say 75g of Pure protein. Even though Im eating a severe deficit. some of you are suggesting that because I'm 50lbs over weight my body will use that EXCESS to build muscle?
Legitimate question here. Is a caloric intake surplus necessary if you have EXCESS body fat?
Depends on what your goal is.0 -
Then why did you make your comment if you understand...as I was not saying what you said I was?
He said he gained muscle and gained strength. He wasn't saying that he had gained strength because of the muscle. Which is what I was presuming you meant by 'Strength gains =/= sarcoplasmic hypertorphy'.
/smh
=/= means does not equal.
He assumed that he had gained muscle due to strength, I was correcting him.
No he wasn't. Read it again. I know what it means.0 -
I was just told I can't train for a tri on a calorie deficit.
***** please, I do what I want.0 -
Then why did you make your comment if you understand...as I was not saying what you said I was?
He said he gained muscle and gained strength. He wasn't saying that he had gained strength because of the muscle. Which is what I was presuming you meant by 'Strength gains =/= sarcoplasmic hypertorphy'.
/smh
=/= means does not equal.
He assumed that he had gained muscle due to strength, I was correcting him.
No he wasn't. Read it again. I know what it means.
Not sure how you get what you are getting from what you are reading...whatever that is.0 -
I was just told I can't train for a tri on a calorie deficit.
***** please, I do what I want.
This is way off topic but with the shooting muffs (?) in your pic I thought you were Adam Baldwin.0 -
tagging for reading later
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Not sure how you get what you are getting from what you are reading...whatever that is.
Ok.0 -
Perhaps... your shirt shrunk. :laugh: Or you're counting your calories incorrectly.
Or, depending on what margin of error we're talking about for your shirt sleeves, you're retaining water. Since you're noticing a difference, and it seems unlikely that you gained... say, 1" around your arms while lifting and not eating all that much, I'm going to suggest it's one of these other explanations.
Lol I hope not, I like that dress!
But there's muscle there where there was once just thinner arms. Unless..........water is stored in the shaped of muscle?
Oh come on, I'm not lying to you - I'm being very honest, there was no muscle and now there is and you're just trying to poo poo my argument with WATER WEIGHT on my arms. Piffle!
You are totally missing the point of what water weight people are talking about - it IS in the muscle - glycogen and water.0 -
Perhaps... your shirt shrunk. :laugh: Or you're counting your calories incorrectly.
Or, depending on what margin of error we're talking about for your shirt sleeves, you're retaining water. Since you're noticing a difference, and it seems unlikely that you gained... say, 1" around your arms while lifting and not eating all that much, I'm going to suggest it's one of these other explanations.
Lol I hope not, I like that dress!
But there's muscle there where there was once just thinner arms. Unless..........water is stored in the shaped of muscle?
Oh come on, I'm not lying to you - I'm being very honest, there was no muscle and now there is and you're just trying to poo poo my argument with WATER WEIGHT on my arms. Piffle!
You are totally missing the point of what water weight people are talking about - it IS in the muscle - glycogen and water.
I think you might be on a hiding to nothing here......0
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