"Starvation mode", exercise calories, dillema?

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  • ladyark
    ladyark Posts: 1,101 Member
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  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    Hey,

    Maybe you could help me here. Just signed up last week and ready to go. A few months ago I took up a challange to get fit. I got a gym membership for 12 months so that I would continue to go and I love it. I am fitter than ever have been. So now I am looking at food to help with my weight loss to help my change to a healther lifestyle.

    I have noticed after using this counter and such that I am falling short of the caleries I need to take in daily, i'm not hungry. I know i can add more vege and such in but would have to eat alot to still make them up.

    Can someone give me suggestions on getting this up?
    I am also Lactose and Frusctose intollerant if people could keep this in mind

    I don't want to fall into the trap i did a number of years ago where my body went in to starvation mode, I came out of it unwill and worse than when i started (didnt kow about it at the time)

    send me a PM and I'll see if I can make some suggestions.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    If humans went into true starvation mode after only skipping 1 meal or not eating for a day we would not have survived this long fact not fiction.

    Hmm, since starvation mode is a process not a condition, not sure what this is referring to. As I said in my post, the first 1 to 2 days, nothing really changes in the first 24 to 48 hours, so while the process of starvation mode begins after your deficit grows to large, hormonal changes don't really start until glycogen reserves get to low. Which takes about 24 hours in the case of fasting, and about 48 hours in the case of underfeeding (enough to deplete the glycogen reserves).

    Were you referring to something else?
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    What do you mean by underfeeding? Are you saying that people who chronically eat below their TDEE experience adverse health effects? Or when you say underfeeding are you speaking of below BMR?

    Also, I really don't understand what you're saying in the last paragraph I quoted. If I go to webMD and use their metabolism calculator to find my TDEE, then why do I need to multiply by 25%?

    to answer your first question. Underfeeding is any time you eat below TDEE yes, but as I stated, in order to begin and continue in the process of starvation mode, you must underfeed enough to not be able to maintain the deficit. think of it like this:

    if Calories consumed + energy from storage (fat, protein...etc) =TDEE
    then
    You can maintain the deficit and lose fat.

    BUT
    If Calories consumed + energy from storage is LESS than TDEE then eventually, your body will continue to use glycogen at a greater rate then it can be created, eventually the body will require a means to balance out, this means adusting the energy burning portions of the body (muscles organs, autonomic functions, heat, immune system...etc)
    This is a long slow process, but eventually it can become dangerous.

    AND
    The more fat you have, the larger the amount of energy the body can pull to make the equation above equal out.
    But the body can only use so much fat, because it can't pull fat from unexposed areas (think of a melting ice cube, you can't melt the middle until the top is melted). So there's a finite amount of energy that the body can pull from fat at any one point in time.

    as to your second question. I probably should have been clearer on that. WebMD is a TDEE calculator, so no need to multiply by your activity level. If you're using a BMR or RMR calculator then you would, but not if it already asks for your activity level.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    I had never heard the term "starvation myth" until I saw this post. But I was so put off by the third paragraph that I didn't want to read the rest - mainly because paragraph 3 was so combative and judgey.

    So I googled "starvation myth" and found out some really interesting information.

    I liked this post - http://fattyfightsback.blogspot.com/2009/03/mtyhbusters-starvation-mode.html

    So many opinions on this but as we are often told, we must do what we think is right for ourselves.

    I know that post well, and I know her well, she was a member on here for a while. Much of that post is dead wrong. I'm sorry I put you off, but if you've been on here long enough and watched the forums, you'll see that there is much controversy about this concept, and much misinformation. I truly am sorry that you considered it combative and judgey, but I post the way I feel, then add my facts to back up my feelings. That's just how I do things.

    best wishes,

    -Banks
  • sandyinsc
    sandyinsc Posts: 70 Member
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    Bump for later. Thank you for posting this! :flowerforyou:
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    I'll post some of my research papers later today per request, I'm about to leave for work, so I can't do it right this second, but I will when I have a few minutes.

    I did post a few here the other day, you can read them if you want.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/710506-net-calories?page=1#posts-10446027
  • mocha76
    mocha76 Posts: 184 Member
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  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    For the record, my two favorite books are:

    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism / Edition 6 by Sareen S. Gropper, Jack L. Smith (although I read 5th edition, this is what's out now)

    and

    Advanced Human Nutrition / Edition 2 by Denis M Medeiros, Robert E.C. Wildman

    Both are excellent books, both are college level masters texts though, and both dive very deeply into Anatomy and Physiology and bio-chemistry so be forewarned if you buy them.

    If you read these and comprehend them, you'll understand the human metabolism and why all the topics I've discussed occur.

    for a more layman's read though, there's a great book called

    Strength Training / Edition 1 by NSCA -National Strength & Conditioning Association, Lee Brown

    while it's mostly about strength training, the introductory chapters cover a lot of muscle metabolism and some nutrition as well, I recommend it to all newbie trainers (or aspiring trainers) and anyone who's serious about health and wellness.

    and no, I don't have any connection to these books, this is straight up recommendations based on my likes and dislikes.
  • Wecandothis
    Wecandothis Posts: 1,083 Member
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    I had never heard the term "starvation myth" until I saw this post. But I was so put off by the third paragraph that I didn't want to read the rest - mainly because paragraph 3 was so combative and judgey.


    Banks!!!!! I've thought about you a lot since I've been back and you were absent. I've frankly avoided the forums lately because they have become quite 'judgey' - but I've never known you to be. It's great to see that you are still out there - hope you and your wife are both doing well.

    avalonwomon: Honestly Banks is not combative or judgey. He is a great guy who has in the past taken a great deal of time to to help many people on here. I understand why you might think that about him. His writing is very authoritative and unless you know him a little you might make that knee jerk assessment of him. (I don't really know him personally - except I feel like I do because I used to read all of his -very long- posts word for word because they were such good advice) If you do get to understand him you will see that he HONESTLY wants to impart good information that he's studied for quite some time. He wants to help people, and not encourage some of the misinformation that is often given around here. Banks is one of the good guys.

    As far as the 'sticky' goes, he used to have GOBS of posts stickied. They were my bible when I started this years ago. Didn't even know they were gone.

    And THANK YOU BANKS! Your advice made a positive difference in my life. That thank you is long overdue. Don't think that I ever told you before.
  • ChappyEight
    ChappyEight Posts: 163 Member
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    Great stuff.
  • ucabucca
    ucabucca Posts: 606 Member
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    I can say this is right from another view point I had some medical problems (bad gallbladder) that caused me to keep vomitting that took a toll on me to the point my body was going into shut down and I developed an eating disorder following that and the brain fog, fatigue, lack of hunger, muscles atrophy etc is all real and I can not tell you how excited I was when I started to feel hunger again. It was the coolest feeling. It has taken me quiet a few months but I am at a healthy weight again and excited to be able to start enjoying my favorite activities like hiking and sports. The scarey part is by the medical charts i was still within normal range on weight but it was not what I need to be at to do the things I loved. The charts are estimates guidelines and that is it. Just as MFP gives a good estimate of calories burned it maybe different per person.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    I had never heard the term "starvation myth" until I saw this post. But I was so put off by the third paragraph that I didn't want to read the rest - mainly because paragraph 3 was so combative and judgey.


    Banks!!!!! I've thought about you a lot since I've been back and you were absent. I've frankly avoided the forums lately because they have become quite 'judgey' - but I've never known you to be. It's great to see that you are still out there - hope you and your wife are both doing well.

    avalonwomon: Honestly Banks is not combative or judgey. He is a great guy who has in the past taken a great deal of time to to help many people on here. I understand why you might think that about him. His writing is very authoritative and unless you know him a little you might make that knee jerk assessment of him. (I don't really know him personally - except I feel like I do because I used to read all of his -very long- posts word for word because they were such good advice) If you do get to understand him you will see that he HONESTLY wants to impart good information that he's studied for quite some time. He wants to help people, and not encourage some of the misinformation that is often given around here. Banks is one of the good guys.

    As far as the 'sticky' goes, he used to have GOBS of posts stickied. They were my bible when I started this years ago. Didn't even know they were gone.

    And THANK YOU BANKS! Your advice made a positive difference in my life. That thank you is long overdue. Don't think that I ever told you before.

    aww, thanks lady! I truly appreciate the kind words. Glad I could be a bit of help to you. Although my wife might think I'm an *kitten* some times :ohwell:
    I try to keep my judgement to a very technical level. If people get personal with me, I try to do as little retaliation as possible from that personal standpoint. I don't mince words, which some find offensive (I guess), but I don't just blatantly insult either. On the other hand, if I'm attacked, I don't meekly take it. but my defense is usually always to provide technical documentation to support my theories and opinions (although if they're just being an *kitten*, I'll say that as well).
  • Wecandothis
    Wecandothis Posts: 1,083 Member
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    I try to keep my judgement to a very technical level. If people get personal with me, I try to do as little retaliation as possible from that personal standpoint. I don't mince words, which some find offensive (I guess), but I don't just blatantly insult either. On the other hand, if I'm attacked, I don't meekly take it. but my defense is usually always to provide technical documentation to support my theories and opinions (although if they're just being an *kitten*, I'll say that as well).

    Oh I remember well. Just yesterday I read an answer to a post by someone who - by their avatar pic - has been using way too much HCG - and I began to miss you a great deal. The muscle head had not only insulted someone asking a genuine question, but had given them absolutely rotten advice. I must have invoked your name - must have done it three times because here you are.

    Go get the muscle heads, Banks. You're the MFP super hero.

    (good Lord, I'm starting to sound like the old 'Banks Fan Club' that used to exist....)
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    I try to keep my judgement to a very technical level. If people get personal with me, I try to do as little retaliation as possible from that personal standpoint. I don't mince words, which some find offensive (I guess), but I don't just blatantly insult either. On the other hand, if I'm attacked, I don't meekly take it. but my defense is usually always to provide technical documentation to support my theories and opinions (although if they're just being an *kitten*, I'll say that as well).

    Oh I remember well. Just yesterday I read an answer to a post by someone who - by their avatar pic - has been using way too much HCG - and I began to miss you a great deal. The muscle head had not only insulted someone asking a genuine question, but had given them absolutely rotten advice. I must have invoked your name - must have done it three times because here you are.

    Go get the muscle heads, Banks. You're the MFP super hero.

    (good Lord, I'm starting to sound like the old 'Banks Fan Club' that used to exist....)

    I think you mean HGH, not HCG. LOL, too much HCG and they might try to have a baby, but it wouldn't affect their muscles much. LOL.
  • maurierose
    maurierose Posts: 574 Member
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    I try to keep my judgement to a very technical level. If people get personal with me, I try to do as little retaliation as possible from that personal standpoint. I don't mince words, which some find offensive (I guess), but I don't just blatantly insult either. On the other hand, if I'm attacked, I don't meekly take it. but my defense is usually always to provide technical documentation to support my theories and opinions (although if they're just being an *kitten*, I'll say that as well).

    Oh I remember well. Just yesterday I read an answer to a post by someone who - by their avatar pic - has been using way too much HCG - and I began to miss you a great deal. The muscle head had not only insulted someone asking a genuine question, but had given them absolutely rotten advice. I must have invoked your name - must have done it three times because here you are.

    Go get the muscle heads, Banks. You're the MFP super hero.

    (good Lord, I'm starting to sound like the old 'Banks Fan Club' that used to exist....)

    I think you mean HGH, not HCG. LOL, too much HCG and they might try to have a baby, but it wouldn't affect their muscles much. LOL.

    No, she probably really DID mean "HCG" - as mentioned here: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/diet-fitness/diet/articles/2011/03/14/hcg-diet-dangers-is-fast-weight-loss-worth-the-risk

    Have known more than a few folks that have used it, and personally think it's nuts. Eat right.... exercise.... figure out what works, and be willing to DO the WORK. Not rocket science. *shrugs*

    :smile: :flowerforyou:
  • geekyjock76
    geekyjock76 Posts: 2,720 Member
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    If you visit the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, you can delve into many studies on the varied effects of maintaining a caloric decrement by various populations. Although outcomes are more severe in some cases - like ballet dancers known to engage in very dangerous eating patterns - one common fact results: a depressed Resting Metabolic Rate (which can take quite some time to return to optimal levels if said behavior is continued for too long).
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    No, she probably really DID mean "HCG" - as mentioned here: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/diet-fitness/diet/articles/2011/03/14/hcg-diet-dangers-is-fast-weight-loss-worth-the-risk

    Have known more than a few folks that have used it, and personally think it's nuts. Eat right.... exercise.... figure out what works, and be willing to DO the WORK. Not rocket science. *shrugs*

    :smile: :flowerforyou:

    but for muscle growth? as opposed to weight loss? she was talking about "muscle heads" which would lend more towards HGH than HCG which is being used mostly for weight loss treatment, not muscle growth, admittedly though, I only skimmed the article...

    I still have yet to see a negative study on HGH by the way, I haven't taken it, nor have I recommended it, but so far, it seems like a miracle cure for orthopedic issues. Most of the concerns deal with not knowing what long term side effects could be, even though it's been in circulation for almost 4 decades now. Any possible ties to real side effects have been tenuous at best. Other than some joint swelling and skin rashes, there are no confirmed side effects that I'm aware of.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    If you visit the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, you can delve into many studies on the varied effects of maintaining a caloric decrement by various populations. Although outcomes are more severe in some cases - like ballet dancers known to engage in very dangerous eating patterns - one common fact results: a depressed Resting Metabolic Rate (which can take quite some time to return to optimal levels if said behavior is continued for too long).

    agreed, while very technical for the layman, it's a great place.
    along with ajcn.org (american journal of clinical nutrition), it's my two main research stops when looking for stuff.
  • SerenaNatasha
    SerenaNatasha Posts: 246
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