Afterlife: Is There Life After Death?
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Not to keep you up all night, so answer when you have time, but I'd like to see scripture that quotes that.
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Since she's off to bed, I can toss this one out there, even though I am on the other side of the fence.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
One could reasonably theorize that this would validate her claim, at least for the infants, as it basically states that all will be held accountable for their own sins (which kind of kicks the idea of original sin in it's *kitten*), which would absolve infants. As for the stuff about the disabled, I am finding some pretty mixed stuff, ranging from God telling Moses that the disabled are not fit to serve, to all of the stuff with Jesus healing various ailments. Not really sure on that one.0 -
LOL I just didn't feel like reading through all the pages of arguments over this topic, because obviously IT IS A TOUCHY TOPIC FOR MANY PEOPLE!
I seen that on the first page, thought it fit lol.
My opinion shall remain within, as I'm agnostic.
My beliefs are mine, and mine only and they are subject to change whenever I feel they should.
(:
I just don't think this should have became a debate over religion rather than what the OP asked.
Maybe I'm a vampire? Maybe I'm walking as life after death lol.
It was inevitable that it would take this path, and really, if you read the entire thing, it's surprising how long the transition took. Fortunately, it's actually been very civil, all inclusive, and pretty thought provoking at times. As for being agnostic: so am I. You don't see me clamming up, do ya?
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Well, I'm sure someone probably already said this here, as it is stating the obvious. According to religion, every single one of us is going to another religion's hell. :ohwell:0
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Well, I'm sure someone probably already said this here, as it is stating the obvious. According to religion, every single one of us is going to another religion's hell. :ohwell:
Yeap, already got you covered. I just put it in a slightly different format:The monotheisms' 'my way or the highway' attitude is the real problem. If the God of the monotheisms does exist, he certainly has a pretty sick sense of humor when you are talking about gambling with the souls of billions upon billions of individuals. I could grasp it a bit more if it were all about 'living a good life', but it's not. That's only part of the equation. You still only have a theoretical 33.33333~% chance of getting it right, so to speak.0 -
Well, I'm sure someone probably already said this here, as it is stating the obvious. According to religion, every single one of us is going to another religion's hell. :ohwell:
Yeap, already got you covered. I just put it in a slightly different format:The monotheisms' 'my way or the highway' attitude is the real problem. If the God of the monotheisms does exist, he certainly has a pretty sick sense of humor when you are talking about gambling with the souls of billions upon billions of individuals. I could grasp it a bit more if it were all about 'living a good life', but it's not. That's only part of the equation. You still only have a theoretical 33.33333~% chance of getting it right, so to speak.
I agree with you on all this!
I guess I should look back to see how people replied to that.0 -
Depends: if you're a believer...then there is. If not...there isn't. It's not worth arguing because most people won't change their minds unless something happens to them...either good or bad.
So, enjoy each day and thank God, or yourself for it and be glad.0 -
The picture was too damn big, had to resize it.
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And I have a book to recommend for those who consider themselves atheist or agnostic ... it's called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist". It's a similar concept, but takes a hard look at some of the "scientific" methods used to refute Theism in general, and specifically Christianity. What made me think of it was the one point you mentioned about the book you recommended called "It fits".
As for agnostis and atheists and proof, it isn't really my job to MAKE them believe in God and the eternal salvation offered through faith in Christ Jesus, but to plant a seed of faith, and allow God to do what He does best. The farmer plants the corn, but he doesn't MAKE it grow. Of course, he tends to it while it is sprouting, but ultimately God makes the corn grow. Likewise, only God can turn a heart.
FTR, I used to be an atheist. I failed. How I came to believe in God, however, is not relevant for the discussion at hand.
I'll give it a look, and thanks for the recommendation.
Keep in mind, Law doesn't use only the scientific method to attack the 'defense mechanisms' of faith based things. There's also a huge portion of good old fashioned rationality and empirical (though not necessarily derived from the scientific method) evidence. He also admits, just as Dawkins did (which many who hate him like to overlook) "Perhaps there are some genuinely profound and meaningful questions that are forever beyond the reach of science". That's the point where we have to actually turn on that old rusty engine called 'critical thinking' that so very many members of our population today have forgotten all about. Don't worry, I don't blame religion for the numbing of the minds, as the human brain did very well under centuries of it's rule. No, I find the 'nanny state' to be much more detrimental to thought capacity, but that's another topic for another time.
I would certainly agree with you on the "nanny state"---it is a gentler form of tyranny but tyranny nonetheless (and sometimes, not so very gentle, which doesn't bode well for the future).0 -
Ah, now we're getting into Calvanism and there is a difference of opinion even amongs Christians who believe in salvation through Jesus' death on the cross: once saved always saved or can you lose your salvation?
Therein lies another problem. If even the proponents of a system can't agree upon how it works, how can anyone be certain that any of it is right, and not just people scrambling for anything they can cobble together to attempt to save face? Misinterpretation is one thing, but what we have these days far exceeds a little 'oops, I read that wrong'.
I sympathize but that is why I left liberal Christianity in favor of the true Biblically-based faith. One must bathe in Scripture under the scrubbing hand of the Holy Spirit in order to grasp the more difficult concepts. I believe that ALL apparent conflicts dissolve under this approach as Scripture interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But one never gets complacent as there are always more things to explore in the Divine Book.0 -
But that still doesn't change the view of someone like myself who looks at all religious faith as being subjective in interpretation. ALL religions believe that how they interpret scriptures is correct. Some of my favorite debates were ones that I observed on a religious forum where different denominations of christianity argued about interpretation of scripture.I sympathize but that is why I left liberal Christianity in favor of the true Biblically-based faith. One must bathe in Scripture under the scrubbing hand of the Holy Spirit in order to grasp the more difficult concepts. I believe that ALL apparent conflicts dissolve under this approach as Scripture interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But one never gets complacent as there are always more things to explore in the Divine Book.
The Jews and christians follow the old testament, yet disagree overall on religious belief. Why? Because somewhere interpretation of scripture led christianity another direction.
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The picture was too damn big, had to resize it.
^^^ This, and how every religion refers to a book for their reason for belief. For Example: "Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so." Well now, we've just created a cult haven't we? We have inserted a figure of divinity and a reason for believing in that divinity which has proof only within itself. Tell that story to a bunch of children as they grow up and make them feel like they should tell it to their children. Create gatherings so that people can feel like they are a part of a group and are loved by a group that shares the same beliefs as them. Insert music to stir their emotions. Create a system for making them feel guilty about things that they do but be sure that you create a way for them to rid themselves of at least part of that guilt so they will feel as though they are excepted again. So we have just made people feel like the very religion that cursed them to a life of guilt is the one that freed them from said life of guilt.0 -
I sympathize but that is why I left liberal Christianity in favor of the true Biblically-based faith. One must bathe in Scripture under the scrubbing hand of the Holy Spirit in order to grasp the more difficult concepts. I believe that ALL apparent conflicts dissolve under this approach as Scripture interprets itself with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But one never gets complacent as there are always more things to explore in the Divine Book.
Hey! Aroundthemulberrybush! *whistles!* *waves hand!* I'm still waiting for you to reply to what I said! I'm not a Muslim! You can actually talk to me! It's ok!!!
I am not asking you to believe anything different about God or the Bible. I'm simply asking you to recognize that the Koran presents a very different Jesus than the one presented in the Bible. That's all. A very simple thing. I think recognizing this fact might help you to speak to Muslims in the future about their beliefs in Jesus without insulting them.
My issue is not your faith. My issue is xenophobia. It really irks me. I can't help it.
SIgned,
Baptized Catholic!0 -
Ah, now we're getting into Calvanism and there is a difference of opinion even amongs Christians who believe in salvation through Jesus' death on the cross: once saved always saved or can you lose your salvation?
Therein lies another problem. If even the proponents of a system can't agree upon how it works, how can anyone be certain that any of it is right, and not just people scrambling for anything they can cobble together to attempt to save face? Misinterpretation is one thing, but what we have these days far exceeds a little 'oops, I read that wrong'.
I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.
I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.
I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.
This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..
^^^This^^^ I too am turned off by empty religion. Faith sets the world on fire and is the most exciting journey anyone can make.0 -
I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.
I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.
I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.
This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..
Actually, what you just provided is better than the "proof" that most offer up. You don't sound like you are trying to convince anyone of anything, which says to me that you hold your faith without feeling required to justify it. To be quite honest, I think you are the first person who has told me that they feel that God wishes to be questioned. Many stick to the same old "God will not be tested" wall, and quite frankly, that wouldn't make any sense, given that if we were indeed created by Him, He would HAVE to know that it was going to come to this point eventually.
The funny thing is that, explaining God in a personified manner, as you just did, would have gotten you racked and burned in the not too distant past. However, maybe that's what the monotheisms have been missing all along.
David questioned God and so did Job.
At the risk of offending Roman Catholics who may be tuned in, I think you are objecting to Roman Catholicism with the "racked and burned" comment. NOWHERE in the New Testament are we told to "rack and burn" anyone because they have differing opinions on matters of faith. When the disciples wanted to "call down fire" on Jews resistant to their teaching, they were soundly rebuked by Jesus. While true faith can be found attending the RCC, many Catholics only know the ritual and do not know the word of God.0 -
David questioned God and so did Job.
At the risk of offending Roman Catholics who may be tuned in, I think you are objecting to Roman Catholicism with the "racked and burned" comment. NOWHERE in the New Testament are we told to "rack and burn" anyone because they have differing opinions on matters of faith. When the disciples wanted to "call down fire" on Jews resistant to their teaching, they were soundly rebuked by Jesus. While true faith can be found attending the RCC, many Catholics only know the ritual and do not know the word of God.
I was more referring to history than scripture, so to speak.0 -
Ooooh, you're may be stepping on some toes here. My friend chattipatti (MFP handle) would likely be offended by this.While true faith can be found attending the RCC, many Catholics only know the ritual and do not know the word of God.
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What of children that die at birth or shortly after? Obviously if one is "born" into sin according to christian belief, then these children can't have received redemption, right?I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.
I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.
I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.
This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That one is an easy one. All children below the "age of responsibility" go to be with the Lord in Paradise. Jesus said that, "...their angels are ever before the throne of God." It was only after Augustine suggested that children were born with "Original Sin" on them that the Roman Church (which has a theology that borrows heavily from Augustine) thought up the whole idea of baptism being essential to guarantee that a dying baby would go to heaven. It is important to remember that throughout Scripture, the idea of one being responsible for one's own sin is stated. One goes to hell on the basis of one's own sin and the punishment there is meted out on the basis of that sin. Jesus said that those who sinned greatly would be punished greatly. Since innocent babies and young children (before they understand the concept of sin) have no sin (just as older people who have damaged brains) they would be in heaven with Jesus at death.
But for we who have long since shed our innocence, God, in His mercy, gave us a way to "get out of jail free" card in the Blood of Jesus. There is one caveat though. Salvation is free, but once you make that commitment to Christ, your life is no longer yours but now is "hidden in Him". Salvation is free, but living the life of faith is going to cost you.0 -
This is a stance/postition. It's not scripturally written. However there is scripture written about being born in sin and humans being born unrighteous.
What of children that die at birth or shortly after? Obviously if one is "born" into sin according to christian belief, then these children can't have received redemption, right?I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.
I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.
I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.
This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That one is an easy one. All children below the "age of responsibility" go to be with the Lord in Paradise. Jesus said that, "...their angels are ever before the throne of God." It was only after Augustine suggested that children were born with "Original Sin" on them that the Roman Church (which has a theology that borrows heavily from Augustine) thought up the whole idea of baptism being essential to guarantee that a dying baby would go to heaven. It is important to remember that throughout Scripture, the idea of one being responsible for one's own sin is stated. One goes to hell on the basis of one's own sin and the punishment there is meted out on the basis of that sin. Jesus said that those who sinned greatly would be punished greatly. Since innocent babies and young children (before they understand the concept of sin) have no sin (just as older people who have damaged brains) they would be in heaven with Jesus at death.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I do believe that God wants us to question Him. To bring our doubts and confusion to Him. He wants it to be a real, living faith and relationship. A back and forth, getting to know Him.
It's not stagnant. He wants us to know why we believe what we believe. We're not robots. He created us to be in relationship with Him.
He gave us free will because He loves us and wants it to be our choice to believe in Him and follow Him. He doesn't want to force us into a relationship with him.
Same way as I want my husband and children to WANT to have relationship with me. I want them to freely give their love rather than it be an obligation with resentment.
I am a member of a denomination. But, in general ritual, tradition and religion really turn me off with their propensity for hypocrisy and the my way or highway mentality.
I sense God most in my life when it's me and Him one on one, while being guided by my pastor.
This probably will not satisfy your quest for argumentative proof one bit, but it's all I got right now..
Actually, what you just provided is better than the "proof" that most offer up. You don't sound like you are trying to convince anyone of anything, which says to me that you hold your faith without feeling required to justify it. To be quite honest, I think you are the first person who has told me that they feel that God wishes to be questioned. Many stick to the same old "God will not be tested" wall, and quite frankly, that wouldn't make any sense, given that if we were indeed created by Him, He would HAVE to know that it was going to come to this point eventually.
The funny thing is that, explaining God in a personified manner, as you just did, would have gotten you racked and burned in the not too distant past. However, maybe that's what the monotheisms have been missing all along.
David questioned God and so did Job.
At the risk of offending Roman Catholics who may be tuned in, I think you are objecting to Roman Catholicism with the "racked and burned" comment. NOWHERE in the New Testament are we told to "rack and burn" anyone because they have differing opinions on matters of faith. When the disciples wanted to "call down fire" on Jews resistant to their teaching, they were soundly rebuked by Jesus. While true faith can be found attending the RCC, many Catholics only know the ritual and do not know the word of God.
BUT DO YOU EAT YOUR EXERCISE CALORIES BACK?!?!?!?
Really. Now I'm just angry. Not only are you totally ignoring me and I'm not even challenging your belief, now you are smack talking my people.
Not cool.0 -
BUT DO YOU EAT YOUR EXERCISE CALORIES BACK?!?!?!?
Really. Now I'm just angry. Not only are you totally ignoring me and I'm not even challenging your belief, now you are smack talking my people.
Not cool.
Aw lawd...I've seen videos of this woman lifting. Her inner Hulk is starting to show! Dear god man, just answer her damned question! 0
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