I'm conflicted about "Fat Acceptance" morally.. I find

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  • jenns1964
    jenns1964 Posts: 384 Member
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    I say "What gives anyone the right to judge anyone?"
  • Ramberta
    Ramberta Posts: 1,312 Member
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    "Fat acceptance" is all about not judging bodies that do not belong to you.

    There is nothing morally conflicting about that. If you don't like how somebody else looks, don't look. Weight does not equal health. You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. Encouraging people to feel good about themselves no matter what their weight is, is tremendously positive. It's not about preaching "you don't need to lose weight!" It about preaching "You are worthy just as you are".

    Then why is there not "Tobacco Acceptance" or "Alcohol Acceptance" as well? Why are all life choices not praised for us being who we want to be? Clearly, there must be other factors into why it is not socially 'acceptable' to be fat. And telling someone they are physically unhealthy does NOT mean they are unworthy as an individual. I think a lot of pro-Acceptance people here are missing that point.

    My boyfriend suffers from major depression. Do I tell him he's worthless? Of course not-- if I thought that, I wouldn't even be with him. But am I going to tell him he's perfectly fine the way he is, and accept him staying in bed all day? Again, of course not. If something is affecting the physical or mental health of someone I love I will speak up about it, BECAUSE I love them. Helping someone face their bad decisions and overcome them is, if anything, the most crucial part of accepting them... because you're willing to support them right now, AND to help motivate them to improve. My boyfriend does the same with me, with my journey to lose weight and overcome anger issues. We accept each other for who we are, but that doesn't mean we have to accept the fact that we can never be better than we are right now!

    First all off, not all people who are "fat" are addicted to food. People addicted to alcohol and drugs actually ARE addicts. So please stop using that analogy, it's not as clever as you think.

    I'm not 'being clever'. We are not discussing people who are 20 pounds overweight, or even 40. This woman is most likely between 4 and 500 pounds. She did not get to this weight by not being addicted to food in some way, although it's amusing that you seem to find that possible. She didn't wake up one day and go "Oh crap, I put on 300 pounds overnight!" Even if she has some major health issues that left her bedridden in a hospital for months (which doesn't seem likely given that she is apparently healthy enough to pose for softcore porn), that doesn't just excuse a lifetime of poor eating.
    Second, weight does not equal health. There are very recent studies (published in the JAMA -- which is about as credible as you can get) the seem to show being "fat" as defined as moderately overweight live longer than their thin counterparts. Here, read: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1555137

    There is nothing that prevents a moderately overweight person from living a totally productive life -- aside from how others treat them. Period. That is what fat acceptance is about. You are, presumably, not a medical doctor. Other people's health is not your concern. You are making lifestyle and health assumptions based on appearance alone. Not cool. Also assuming that thin is "better" also isn't cool.

    When did I ever say that being 'thin' was better? Oh, that's right... nowhere. I have been talking about health, and health alone. The definition of a healthy weight varies from person to person, and no one has to stay at a specific number on the scale their entire life to be healthy. Again, we are not talking about "moderately overweight", we are talking about people who are 2-300 pounds overweight. That is not 'moderate' by any stretch of the imagination.
  • mattschwartz01
    mattschwartz01 Posts: 566 Member
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    Unfortunately, it also means that costs of healthcare rise and everyone else bears the burden of those that chose not to take care of themselves. We don't live in a perfect world and I understand how people feel but why should anyone "accept" a condition that is curable? The problem is multi-pronged. The easiest solution would be for unhealthy people to pay more for healthcare but that doesn't work either because, in the current system, once you get healthy you are continually penalized for your health history. Also, it doesn't work because some people become unhealthy through no fault of their own. The best possible solution is the promotion and reward of healthier life styles.
  • itbepanda
    itbepanda Posts: 11 Member
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    From my experience, it is always clear to me (or I'm always readily assuming) that people are thinking things about my weight, that people say I'm cool and pretty, but that it's a "lie." The people who don't say anything may be thinking some of the meanest things! And that, to me, is just as harmful as outright bullying a person. If you're secretly thinking things about a fat person (like a coworker), you're not being accepting, you know?

    I can appreciate the idea of complimenting a person for losing weight, but it's important to recognize the negatives of that, too. I'm losing weight, and anytime someone compliments me, it just reinforces the idea that I'm "better" now than i was before, and I feel worse about myself. Losing weight has made me very self-conscious because I'm still fat and I've become hyper-aware of what people are thinking about me and it's only just hitting me now that people are always judging me (actively or passively) for my weight. I feel like I'll never win, no matter how much weight I lose.

    It's tricky, and to me it really does feel like a no-win situation. I'm constantly re-evaluating my opinions on the topic. I agree that it's better to not say anything at all if you don't have something nice to say, but I think we can still take it a step further and be able to say that, yes, okay, maybe your habits are bad, but that doesn't make you a bad person, and I can call you pretty without implying that it's okay that you're fat, etc etc.

    Like I said: very complicated.

    This. I couldn't say it better.
    I'm happy to be losing weight, and I'm thankful for the support, but I'm so self-conscious and uncomfortable.
  • Ramberta
    Ramberta Posts: 1,312 Member
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    "Fat acceptance" is all about not judging bodies that do not belong to you.

    There is nothing morally conflicting about that. If you don't like how somebody else looks, don't look. Weight does not equal health. You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. Encouraging people to feel good about themselves no matter what their weight is, is tremendously positive. It's not about preaching "you don't need to lose weight!" It about preaching "You are worthy just as you are".

    Then why is there not "Tobacco Acceptance" or "Alcohol Acceptance" as well? Why are all life choices not praised for us being who we want to be? Clearly, there must be other factors into why it is not socially 'acceptable' to be fat. And telling someone they are physically unhealthy does NOT mean they are unworthy as an individual. I think a lot of pro-Acceptance people here are missing that point.

    You could make the argument that tobacco acceptance was widely popular for years. Cigarrettes used to be seen as healthy and a way to get greater social status. Heck, watch t.v. and all of the beer commercials that pop up - alcohol use is pretty well accepted too.

    In some cultures, being overweight is considered an ideal. Heck, even in our own history society has praised curvy and voluptuous shapes. In cultures where food is scarce, being overweight conveys the notion that the person is higher up on the social ladder and/or has money and power. Perspective is a funny thing.

    Times and tastes change, but assuming that someone who is overweight must be unhappy with themselves or unhealthy is a bit presumptive. It could even be seen as a practice in projection of one's own ideas/morals/values onto others. Some people may genuinely feel good about themselves as they are.

    I know that the United States (and a handful of other countries) have an obsession with skinniness, and I often daydream about what it would be like to live in a country where being plump-- even fat-- would make me a goddess instead of repulsive.

    However, even in these countries, you rarely see anyone topping 4 or 500 pounds the way this woman is. In third world countries, people have to walk farther (probably don't even own a car), work longer hours in more grueling conditions, have more children, and have far less access to specialty foods we take for granted, such as ice cream or Coke. So even if someone is a little pudgy around the middle, that's probably all it will be-- a pudge. That is a far cry from being morbidly obese.

    And in this country there is an obsession with thinness because it seems like an impossible ideal as we are surrounded with excesses. But if you're interested, here's a list of countries where fat is seen as attractive, and not all of them are third world.

    http://www.futurescopes.com/finding-date/9409/countries-where-being-fat-attractive

    Some highlights from this list that aren't in the third world - South Africa, Kuwait, and Tonga.

    Thanks for the link, I'm reading it now.
  • Ramberta
    Ramberta Posts: 1,312 Member
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    Unfortunately, it also means that costs of healthcare rise and everyone else bears the burden of those that chose not to take care of themselves. We don't live in a perfect world and I understand how people feel but why should anyone "accept" a condition that is curable? The problem is multi-pronged. The easiest solution would be for unhealthy people to pay more for healthcare but that doesn't work either because, in the current system, once you get healthy you are continually penalized for your health history. Also, it doesn't work because some people become unhealthy through no fault of their own. The best possible solution is the promotion and reward of healthier life styles.

    How is that not true already? If you have no pre-existing conditions and no history of substance abuse or mental illness, your insurance premiums can be quite low. Unless you meant rewarding people who become healthy after being unhealthy, in which case I approve of that.
  • Ramberta
    Ramberta Posts: 1,312 Member
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    I say "What gives anyone the right to judge anyone?"

    No one. However, people judging other people happens every second of every day, and you do it too. People who say "I don't judge" are delusional. Whether we want to or not we are constantly making snap judgements of others. The difference lies in whether we choose to express those judgements or keep them private, and if we do express them, then what methods and tact (or lack thereof) we choose to employ.

    This is why no one has invented mind-reading techniques-- because after the first three seconds of giddiness, it would quickly turn into the worst invention ever.
  • lmc8774
    lmc8774 Posts: 129 Member
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    I had a friend who was morbidly obese and who died from a blood clot that travelled to her lungs. She was only 26. She was a beautiful, joyful person and we all loved her no matter her size. But most likely, she would be alive today if she would have not been so overweight. So seeing people like this can make me sad. I will absolutely accept the woman in this photo as a person, deserving of rights, love, happiness, etc. But I so want her to make changes in her life that will make her healthier.
  • lithezebra
    lithezebra Posts: 3,670 Member
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    I'm not conflicted about it. There is a lot more to obesity than we understand. It isn't entirely a matter of choice. So I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I also have a great deal of respect for people who try their very best to overcome difficult conditions to be healthier. I realize that not everyone can have a BMI below 30. Most people can at least improve their BMI and find ways to exercise. So I respect the effort, whether the result is being "thin" or not.
  • Ramberta
    Ramberta Posts: 1,312 Member
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    There is nothing that prevents a moderately overweight person from living a totally productive life -- aside from how others treat them. Period. That is what fat acceptance is about.

    Say what, now?

    I'm sure there are some people in FA who want FA to be about that. Perhaps you've restricted yourself to that particular corner.

    But, from what I have seen of the FA movement (not from looking for it), it is not about that at all.

    I am not sure what you are actually saying.

    Fat Acceptance/health at every size -- is definitely about breaking down stereotypes people have of overweight people. Here's one instance in which Wikipedia does a good job: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement

    I read it, and found this: "This article contains weasel words: vague phrasing that often accompanies biased or unverifiable information. Such statements should be clarified or removed. (July 2012)"
  • loosesealbluth
    loosesealbluth Posts: 46 Member
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    I am really not trying to be mean when I say this, because I appreciate the honesty of your responses, but-- I'm sorry, I cannot get behind the fact that complimenting someone for losing weight is harmful to them emotionally.

    Wether or not you "get behind the fact," I know from very personal experience that it happens. But I won't get into that.
    To me, weight is directly correlated to health. I realize that you don't have to be thin to be healthy-- far from it. And if I saw an already-thin person in my life continuing to lose, that would concern me. But for me personally? I am a whopping 80 pounds away from my ideal weight. That is the size of an elementary-school child. An entire person. And even if I only had 20 pounds I wanted to lose, that's still fat that you're getting rid of. Less body fat means you're less likely to develop heart health and blood pressure issues.

    The problem: health is not directly correlated with happiness. People imply that one will be happier when they lose weight. That doesn't necessarily happen. Also: your personal goals (losing 80 pounds, which, ironically, is also what I have left to lose) are not the personal goals for everybody. Maybe you think a person would look better if they lost weight, but that's your opinion, and they are allowed to do what they want, and shouldn't be shamed for that.
    Why is it so offensive to recognize that once we lose weight, we are healthier, and therefore "better" on a purely physical level? Attractiveness has nothing to do with it, really. When I compliment someone for losing weight it is because I am happy for their personal health victory, and appearance is secondary. When someone compliments me for my weight loss efforts (because I have a tendency to brag a bit about fitting into smaller size clothing), I take it as recognition of my hard work. Why should I be offended at that? I AM better now than I was 24 pounds ago. I am better now than I was when I was nearly 300 pounds. Not better as a person, but better physically. I can lift more, run without getting as easily winded, and walk for miles. I am wearing a pants size that I haven't since high school.

    Attractiveness has everything to do with it. You literally said you won't compliment a fat person (unless they were dressed up nice) because you would be "lying." I had one commenter on here tell me that, when I reach my goal weight, I'm going to be beating away the guys with a stick. I now have to be skinny to find a man? Losing weight is very often driven by appearance. I associate with the FA movement but as a teenager, I talk to my crush and wonder if we'd already be dating if I were "skinny." I think this because society teaches me to think this. We absolutely correlate weight and appearance, and if a model gained 200 pounds, she would not be pretty anymore. Hell, if a celebrity gains 5 pounds, they don't hear the end of it. Fat shaming infiltrates every aspect of my life, and appearance is one of the biggest.
    Of course people are still going to think of me as fat, because they don't realize that I've already lost close to 60 pounds. But that doesn't bother me. Even at my goal weight there will still be people who will make offensive snap judgements of me, even in their heads. But why should that bother me? If you let the opinions of others dominate your life then you're not living your life for the most important person-- you!

    See, I do agree with you here. It shouldn't matter what others think! I tell people that all the time, and I tell myself that all the time. But I'm a social person and I've learned that it DOES matter, when making friends and socializing, which rubs off on my behavior and attitudes and beliefs. I wish I could shed that and start "being myself" and not caring, but people fat shame and tell me to lose weight and if I don't care about my weight, and don't let their comments bother me (like you said), I'm lazy and selfish and wait, what? What happened to not letting it bother me?

    Of course it bothers me when people tell me to lose weight. Sadly, that's one reason why I'm losing weight. I'm treated better now that I weigh 240 pounds, compared to when I weighed 320. I will be treated better when I weigh 160 pounds compared to now. Of course I want to be treated better. But I wish this weren't the way to make it happen.
  • SlinkySpencer
    SlinkySpencer Posts: 139 Member
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    Two cents:

    As an obese person, even I don't like "fat acceptance". I don't get pepped up when I'm told how there's nothing wrong with being a "big girl" or told I should embrace who I am--to me, that says I'm not expected to change. So, no, I'm not into "fat acceptance" but I am into respect. Respect means you don't just look at someone and see a healthcare burden. See a person. But if you love an obese person, don't just cheer them on for being "curvy". If you love them, you want them to live the longest and happiest life they can live, after all, right?
  • fbmandy55
    fbmandy55 Posts: 5,263 Member
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    Now if this were a thread with a very "fit, muscular" woman and people posting things like "EWWW", The anti- body shaming crowd would be all over this thread. This is a perfect example of how it is still acceptable to some of you to body shame the obese.


    I am not for fat acceptance, per se but my sister runs a fabulous fashion blog of plus sized women. She doesn't encourage anyone to be fat, in fact I got her going to the gym with me trying to be healthy. She posts photos of herself (a tall and curvy size 14/16) and other women who are absolutley stunning. And fashionable. My sister is also 17, and posseses more confidence than I ever have in my life and reaches out to many self conscious girls of all sizes. Her blogs states "I do not need to be your idea of beauty to truly be beautiful." I think that is great message to send.

    http://thatfatredhead.tumblr.com/
  • devil_in_a_blue_dress
    devil_in_a_blue_dress Posts: 5,214 Member
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    "Fat acceptance" is all about not judging bodies that do not belong to you.

    There is nothing morally conflicting about that. If you don't like how somebody else looks, don't look. Weight does not equal health. You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. Encouraging people to feel good about themselves no matter what their weight is, is tremendously positive. It's not about preaching "you don't need to lose weight!" It about preaching "You are worthy just as you are".

    Then why is there not "Tobacco Acceptance" or "Alcohol Acceptance" as well? Why are all life choices not praised for us being who we want to be? Clearly, there must be other factors into why it is not socially 'acceptable' to be fat. And telling someone they are physically unhealthy does NOT mean they are unworthy as an individual. I think a lot of pro-Acceptance people here are missing that point.

    My boyfriend suffers from major depression. Do I tell him he's worthless? Of course not-- if I thought that, I wouldn't even be with him. But am I going to tell him he's perfectly fine the way he is, and accept him staying in bed all day? Again, of course not. If something is affecting the physical or mental health of someone I love I will speak up about it, BECAUSE I love them. Helping someone face their bad decisions and overcome them is, if anything, the most crucial part of accepting them... because you're willing to support them right now, AND to help motivate them to improve. My boyfriend does the same with me, with my journey to lose weight and overcome anger issues. We accept each other for who we are, but that doesn't mean we have to accept the fact that we can never be better than we are right now!

    First all off, not all people who are "fat" are addicted to food. People addicted to alcohol and drugs actually ARE addicts. So please stop using that analogy, it's not as clever as you think.

    I'm not 'being clever'. We are not discussing people who are 20 pounds overweight, or even 40. This woman is most likely between 4 and 500 pounds. She did not get to this weight by not being addicted to food in some way, although it's amusing that you seem to find that possible. She didn't wake up one day and go "Oh crap, I put on 300 pounds overnight!" Even if she has some major health issues that left her bedridden in a hospital for months (which doesn't seem likely given that she is apparently healthy enough to pose for softcore porn), that doesn't just excuse a lifetime of poor eating.
    Second, weight does not equal health. There are very recent studies (published in the JAMA -- which is about as credible as you can get) the seem to show being "fat" as defined as moderately overweight live longer than their thin counterparts. Here, read: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1555137

    There is nothing that prevents a moderately overweight person from living a totally productive life -- aside from how others treat them. Period. That is what fat acceptance is about. You are, presumably, not a medical doctor. Other people's health is not your concern. You are making lifestyle and health assumptions based on appearance alone. Not cool. Also assuming that thin is "better" also isn't cool.

    When did I ever say that being 'thin' was better? Oh, that's right... nowhere. I have been talking about health, and health alone. The definition of a healthy weight varies from person to person, and no one has to stay at a specific number on the scale their entire life to be healthy. Again, we are not talking about "moderately overweight", we are talking about people who are 2-300 pounds overweight. That is not 'moderate' by any stretch of the imagination.

    Um, fat acceptance is an entire movement that encompasses many body types not just the one pictured. Also, do you know the woman pictured personally? You have NO idea how or what she eats. You are making a LOT of assumptions. LOTS. You don't know her medical history. You don't know if she eats to maintain this size to have work, therefore money to feed her family. She might just like the taste of food.

    And you clearly do seem to think thinness is better because you seem to think thinness = health. It does not. Also, the health of other people is NOT your concern. Your concern is unnecessary and misguided. What is it to YOU what I weigh? Is your life positively affected because you are talking to me and I am a "health" weight. No. Don't think so.
  • nokanjaijo
    nokanjaijo Posts: 466 Member
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    I am not sure what you are actually saying.

    Fat Acceptance/health at every size -- is definitely about breaking down stereotypes people have of overweight people. Here's one instance in which Wikipedia does a good job: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement

    I am saying that morbid obesity and super morbid obesity are problematic and leading to a potential and probable maasive health crisis in the U.S. and likely the U.K. will follow.

    The FA movement has a chilling and narcissistic tendency to try to stifle the discussion of this very important topic by accusing people who discuss the topic of being "fattist". They might not do it all the time and it may not be the only thing they do but they do it enough that it is the only thing I've seen them do.

    So these are incredibly limited descriptions that intentionally ignore the issues with FA that have been raised here:
    There is nothing that prevents a moderately overweight person from living a totally productive life -- aside from how others treat them. Period. That is what fat acceptance is about.
    Fat Acceptance/health at every size -- is definitely about breaking down stereotypes people have of overweight people. Here's one instance in which Wikipedia does a good job: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement

    I think everybody here would be fine with both of these mission statements.
  • Ramberta
    Ramberta Posts: 1,312 Member
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    I had a friend who was morbidly obese and who died from a blood clot that travelled to her lungs. She was only 26. She was a beautiful, joyful person and we all loved her no matter her size. But most likely, she would be alive today if she would have not been so overweight. So seeing people like this can make me sad. I will absolutely accept the woman in this photo as a person, deserving of rights, love, happiness, etc. But I so want her to make changes in her life that will make her healthier.

    I am so, so sorry for your loss. :( My mother was "only" 350 lbs at her heaviest weight, but she died at 56. It was the cancer that finally got her, but she had pretty much every health problem you could name, and the last ten years of her life were full of sickness and suffering. I am determined to be around my loved ones as long as possible, which means getting healthier NOW!!
  • nomorepizza2
    nomorepizza2 Posts: 85 Member
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    I ate a McDonalds yesterday, I ate pizza hut 3 times in the last 2 weeks, but I have maintained my frame because I eat everything in moderation and make smart choices the rest of the time.
    I just want to shake people who say they don't like salads, etc. so they can't go on a diet. It's ridiculous.

    I'm sorry to say I was one of those people! For years I accepted my ever expanding waistline as a consequence of getting older and thought of dieting as steamed vegetables and fish. No more junk food forever. I thought, what's the point of looking good if I'm going to be miserable?
    It wasn't till I found this site and starting reading up about weight loss that I realised I can still eat all the garbage I love as long as I budget for it and keep under my calorie/fat quota for the day.
  • elyelyse
    elyelyse Posts: 1,454 Member
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    I hate when a very obese person sits on a bus or train and takes up 2 chairs :mad:

    now imagine how they feel about it. you might be mad, but that's probably easier than feeling embarrassed and humiliated.
  • Ramberta
    Ramberta Posts: 1,312 Member
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    Attractiveness has everything to do with it. You literally said you won't compliment a fat person (unless they were dressed up nice) because you would be "lying." I had one commenter on here tell me that, when I reach my goal weight, I'm going to be beating away the guys with a stick. I now have to be skinny to find a man? Losing weight is very often driven by appearance. I associate with the FA movement but as a teenager, I talk to my crush and wonder if we'd already be dating if I were "skinny." I think this because society teaches me to think this. We absolutely correlate weight and appearance, and if a model gained 200 pounds, she would not be pretty anymore. Hell, if a celebrity gains 5 pounds, they don't hear the end of it. Fat shaming infiltrates every aspect of my life, and appearance is one of the biggest.

    You're still misunderstanding WHY I don't compliment a fat person-- it is NOT because of how they look. Frankly, I thought my boyfriend looked like a weirdo when I first met him, and I'm sure he didn't exactly find me gorgeous. Physical beauty is not only fleeting, but it doesn't matter. If it did, I would be all over this Fat Acceptance thing, because as I said in my first post here-- the model in this picture IS beautiful to me. The reason why I don't compliment fat people is because I don't want them to feel comfortable being fat for health reasons. I don't shame anyone for their looks and I never will, but I'm not going to praise someone who looks like they could drop dead of a heart attack if they don't change their behavior!
    Of course it bothers me when people tell me to lose weight. Sadly, that's one reason why I'm losing weight. I'm treated better now that I weigh 240 pounds, compared to when I weighed 320. I will be treated better when I weigh 160 pounds compared to now. Of course I want to be treated better. But I wish this weren't the way to make it happen.

    I am absolutely doing this for other people, secondary to myself. I'm doing it for those I love, like my boyfriend and my dad and brother, but I'm also doing it for all the people who have looked at me and not given me a second look because I'm fat. Is that a healthy attitude? Probably not, but you can't say it isn't motivating! If people kept telling me I'm beautiful the way I am, I would never have a reason to lose weight because I would have convinced myself I didn't need to. Then I would still be unhealthy, and continuing to get fatter instead of striving for a healthy lifestyle.
  • erinpd
    erinpd Posts: 96
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    Weirdly enough, it was the FA/Health at Every Size movement that brought me to MFP in the first place.

    It's amazing what can happen when you don't hate yourself anymore. When you actually believe you are worth the effort to be healthy and happy.

    The philosophy of FA/HAES runs completely contrary to society's message to fat people: that you are not broken, disfigured, disgusting, etc. You are a person deserving of fair treatment, no matter what you weigh. That's all.

    In fact, reading through some of these posts, it should be pretty clear why FA exists in the first place. Some of us are so quick to reduce people down to their weight and make assumptions about health, lifestyle, etc. It makes me sad.

    Because of FA/HAES, I believe that I am worth the work. Watch my fat a** run down the sidewalk. Watch my fat a** drink green smoothies all day long. I may never be as thin as I "should" be, but the effort will pay off in terms of my long-term health and that's all. that. matters.
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