Registered Dietitian in TX here to answer questions.

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Never underestimate the power of a REAL education. With the group you mentioned, you may not know the whole story. There are many pills, drugs, steroids, etc which can help people 'appear' healthy. What's on the outside doesn't necessary represent what is on the inside. I would take advice of a doctor, registered nurse, or registered dietitian before listening to anyone else.
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I dont advocate the use of pills, juice, gear or steroids in any of my 1 on 1 clients nor do we mention this in our thread.
I believe in building the body up to its metabolic potential much like EMTWL by first finding TDEE then slowly cutting down calories till desire "Fat" loss is reached.
This method simply gets your body attuned with eating higher calories so it works more efficiently.
I think we can all agree that if you could lose 1lb of fat a week eating an average of 1800-2k a day, you would be happier than eating 1200 cals a day with a lower hormonal profile.
After reading this thread up to the point where my name was put in the category as "possible steroids" the RD does have some good points but some extremely bad points.

A greater discussion would be "why would you suggest eating below BMR/RMR if LPL is higher (promoting fat retention) T3 is lower (preventing fat loss) Cortisol is higher (antagonizing Testosterone preventing LBM retention and using LBM as fuel).

I think this was horrible advice and would never suggest it to a client for long term fat loss.

Just because they have a degree or a certification doesn't necessarily make RDs all knowing.
The human body is still largely a mystery in many aspects and the medical industry is continuing to learn and grow throughout the decades.
Hell, in the 80s Fat was bad and in the 90s carbs were bad.

All I can say to this is as you said, "the body is a mystery". If it weren't we would all be fit and healthy. So many of us want it, so many of us have the right intentions, work ethic, time and dedication, but still fail. All I was saying is "as a whole, you never know what people are doing to look good". I wasn't meaning you or Sara or any of the others mentioned are for sure druggies, etc. I stand corrected. i just meant that she was incorrect to assume Tony wrong and everyone else doing it, "the right way". I meant, as a whole, you just never know. Even professionals do drugs. We've all read the news. What was that hot biker's name" I just was pointing out that no one can discredit one person and validate another. It's just wrong. It was wrong of her to do.

I think we have valid points. However, I don't think Tony's thread is the place to discuss it. I would like to respect him as a professional and start our own thread to debate.

I do like the way you tactfully addressed this. I appreciate your politeness. Shall we move on? Can you create a thread and we can bounce there and let Tony have his?

I'm happy as long as we understand that the above mentioned names all work hard, eat right, recover properly and have the physiques to show for it.
We offer our views to anyone willing to listen.
Most who take the advice get similar results and eat at or near TDEE.
It's about patience and efficiency.
It's a way of life.

Hugs!

I do apologize. I am new to the forums. I only know of Sara from here and now you. Of you two, i doubt anything illegal or unhealthy is happening. I do not know for sure nor have I heard of or seen the others mentioned, but it seems not so. I was only tossed a group of random names of people whom I had never heard of and I assumed. I do believe in Tony. I believe in both of you as well.

Thank you for all you do.

"people like helloitsdan, heybales, sidesteel, Sarauk2sf "

Just wanted to say that I am friends with these people and every one of them is SUPER helpful and supportive and nice. You can see from their diaries and posts how hard they work out and what they eat and that they have earned every bit of their physiques the right way. And even though they look amazing they all have their own insecurities just like the rest of us. I find some of the comments in this thread unbelievably rude and way off target.

Report Post button is a viable option. I think this among other points have been taken and the users mentioned have been able to speak for themselves without an entourage to do so for them. Not trying to be rude here (and not saying this is me) but some people actually care about what OP has to say. OP never insulted these users specifically, someone else did. Report it cause these folks have worked hard. No need for a thread to be ruined.

I agree. But I don't think anyone bashed these ppl . I wish this post would get back to topics for Tony.

I personally couldn't care about whether someone got called names, "bashed" or not. Everyone here has options. I share your sentiment that thread needs to get back on topic. I have little hope that it will though.

I very much agree and hope so as well.

This thread has become incredibly sad....

It's not sad, it's just derailed. We'll get back to it. I do hate when people take over someone elses thread. He does have a Facebook page. I'm there and it is drama free if you'd like to step over. I promise, as accused, he is NOT selling a thing. He is just loaded with information. Love him!

Agreed, this happens all the time. Same chit different day!

^^ I'm just gonna say this to get it out of the way .... Pop Tarts !

Dur! There is always one in every classroom, in every group, and on every bus. Sometimes it's hard to recognize them, yet other times they open their lips and remove all doubt.

Yep. And some of them have such Sunny personalities

Edited to correct typos. Sorry, on phone

Weird! You're just weird and this is a weird post. I'ts Saturday night you're probably drinking at your computer. Have a "sunny" (weird) day. bye. OMG!

I wasn't talking about what day it was

Edited to add: Don't appreciate being accused of being drunk. And why are you derailing? Didn't you want this to get back to Tony's thread?

Weird. I dunno what this means.

I worry about stevia... I have always heard "fake" sugar is worse then the real thing

Rumours suck. Better than aspartame (which can lead to Aneurysms) and most certainly better than pure sugar!

I keep my sugar under 24g a day easy.. I have learned to do without excess sugar, stevia I take is in my protein powder. I don't add sugar to anything.. may be worth it for you to either learn to live without adding sugar to your drinks or find an alternative.

As someone who has had an aneurysm rupture on her, please could you cite me a reliable source that actually says this so I can do some research on it?

You are more than welcome to use Google, for example, to your avail as what sources I think are reliable may be ones that you feel are not reliable and I'm not looking into getting into a debate (should you disagree). :flowerforyou:

Well, that is just it, I have searched and I have not seen any so was hoping you could point me to them. I do not need to debate them here, but as I have had an aneurysm rupture on me I thought in the interests of community spirit you would share. Obviously not.

Noticed your edit......

Don't take it personally. You could always send a friend request or private message should you want to discuss it further and when I have time, I would be pleased to help. In the midst of all the drama in this thread about advice giving and seeking, I would just rather not right at this moment.

You can't speak for others on what they do to their bodies in their personal closets. I thank you for your input about yourself, but it is beside the point. The point is, if someone isn't a professional they shouldn't be telling anyone who is correct and incorrect.

Technically Dr. Oz is a professional, but does that mean I'm going to run out and buy up as many green coffee beans as I can to lose weight? No. Helloitsdan has it right, and is making the point I wanted to make WITH the science behind it (I'm new to a lot of this and don't know a lot on that end, but am enjoying learning!). I think this dude has a lot of good advice to give on topics OTHER THAN BMR/TDEE. There, I really feel like he has it wrong, and is advising something that could be potentially harmful.

The blatant truth. You're not lean, he is . Case closed!

I worry about stevia... I have always heard "fake" sugar is worse then the real thing

Rumours suck. Better than aspartame (which can lead to Aneurysms) and most certainly better than pure sugar!

I keep my sugar under 24g a day easy.. I have learned to do without excess sugar, stevia I take is in my protein powder. I don't add sugar to anything.. may be worth it for you to either learn to live without adding sugar to your drinks or find an alternative.

As someone who has had an aneurysm rupture on her, please could you cite me a reliable source that actually says this so I can do some research on it?

You are more than welcome to use Google, for example, to your avail as what sources I think are reliable may be ones that you feel are not reliable and I'm not looking into getting into a debate (should you disagree). :flowerforyou:

Well, that is just it, I have searched and I have not seen any so was hoping you could point me to them. I do not need to debate them here, but as I have had an aneurysm rupture on me I thought in the interests of community spirit you would share. Obviously not.

Noticed your edit......

Don't take it personally. You could always send a friend request or private message should you want to discuss it further and when I have time, I would be pleased to help. In the midst of all the drama in this thread about advice giving and seeking, I would just rather not right at this moment.

That's fine, if you do not want to provide a simple link I understand. I wonder if Tony has an opinion on this.

Like the way I got that back to Tony and the fact that it's his thread

Either way, I think it is great that the two of you are debating information. It can only lead to both of you learning more. I love MFP for this reason. I consider this the, "tough love" approach.

"people like helloitsdan, heybales, sidesteel, Sarauk2sf "

Just wanted to say that I am friends with these people and every one of them is SUPER helpful and supportive and nice. You can see from their diaries and posts how hard they work out and what they eat and that they have earned every bit of their physiques the right way. And even though they look amazing they all have their own insecurities just like the rest of us. I find some of the comments in this thread unbelievably rude and way off target.

Report Post button is a viable option. I think this among other points have been taken and the users mentioned have been able to speak for themselves without an entourage to do so for them. Not trying to be rude here (and not saying this is me) but some people actually care about what OP has to say. OP never insulted these users specifically, someone else did. Report it cause these folks have worked hard. No need for a thread to be ruined.

I agree. But I don't think anyone bashed these ppl . I wish this post would get back to topics for Tony.

Me too. I'm a part of one of those groups and I learned a lot from reading their discussions. I have even reccommended their calculator/spreadsheet. But the fact is their formula just isn't working for me. I've done nothing but gain on it. So now I would like to hear some more opinions, please. . . .

eating more didn't help me either I'm afraid. I also just gained. That's how I got fat in the first place, eating more.

Nearly everyone in America is fat. yet everyone is sooo worried about eating MORE. It seems that everyone's perception of survival is spoiled by the concept of "starving" and "starvation mode' and "not eating enough". Really? Like when has an average American ever been reported to have that happen?

Maybe you all are fat, because you are eating too much. And more people are dying in America from too much food and too many unnatural toxins and its related diseases than starvation.

Our perception of food and eating for survival is spoiled and effed up. Learn to recognize when you are hungry. . .go to bed hungry and wake up hungry and quit whining and obsessing about food, calories and more food.

Your body is the only food diary you need. . . if the thought of lettuce sounds good then you are hungry. If not, then it is a craving.
When truly hungry, eat correctly. Everything you need for measurement and survival is on you, you don't need calculators, scales, forums, etc. Your open hand is a serving of veggies, your fist is a serving of protein, your palm is a carb. Start paying attention to your body and not to other people. Only YOUR BODY knows when it is needing food and what it is needing. Strangers on MFP don't know what your body needs. Via it's innate surviving tools you were born with, you've been given all you need if you'd start listening and paying attention to what it is telling you.

Yep. I think we're done here. Anyone looking for advice from this guy, look no further than the conversation between he and I. You may as well get some Raspberry Ketones from Dr. Oz while you're at it.

I would just like to use this conversation with this member as an example so y'all can take something from this.

A lot of unqualified people give nutrition advice. It's very common. Misinformation can even come from doctors and dietitians. However, just because something sounds good in theory, doesn't mean it's true.

It's important to think for yourself. On a big issue such as "starvation mode" there is a lot of primary literature out there on the subject. And by primary literature- I mean scientific peer reviewed journals. Not books or magazine or blog articles.

I'm not going to use the fact that I'm a RD and this person isn't as an "I'm right and she's wrong" position.

Here's just an example of an obese male that fasted for over 200 days and saw rapid weight loss http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/pdf/postmedj00315-0056.pdf

There's more just like that out there if you want to use pubmed.gov to do a search.

I know you don't want to argue but I have just read this thread and this article and this jumped out at me from the conclusions.

Short-term fasts, although demonstrating to the obese patient his ability to lose weight, have a poor long-term outlook with respect to subsequent weight gain (MacCuish et al., 1968) ... extended starvation therapy must be used cautiously. (basically under strict medical supervision due to deaths related to it)

So this clearly negates what you said about eating a low calorie diet. The artilce also mentioned deaths associated with the starvation diet (I know that is not waht you are suggesting but still) and the article is from 1973 - our knowledge of nutrition has moved on quite a bit since then.

I honestly don't see how you could possibly recommend 800 calories or 600 cals net to a person in good faith. People who eat this low for a period of time are classed as anorexic and have a very hard time meeting their nutritional requirement. Yes they will lose weight - but also a large % of that will be lbm. It seems at odds with the good advice you suggest about lifting heavy and only having a samll deficit.

Also you say if you feel ok with that the it is ok - it is well know that anorexics mess up their 'hunger' signals by eating too low - so that is not a good gauge of if eating so low is ok.

Tony starting his own group is a great idea--he can moderate and set the rules on no debating. When a thread is started in the open forums, people are going to chime in whether or not he wants them to. Some may be dubious of professionals who start threads, others may disagree with the advice and want to challenge it because people are taking it in as "authority" because the person posting is licensed.

How can someone's real TDEE be way off from a calculated TDEE online?

I'm 5'2", 25yrs old and calculators online say my TDEE should be somewhere around 2100-2300 based on my activity. I exercise 4-5days a week for an hour a day and weight 166. I do cardio and lifting.

I tried eating 1600-1700 and did not lose doing that for weeks. So I assume that's my TDEE. If I eat more than 1800 I gain.

Now that I am eating 1200-1500 (average 1300-1400) I am losing about a pound a week.

Are there any factors that can cause this? I am on high blood pressure medication so I thought maybe that might have some effect. I do plan on asking my doctor about it next time I go. It just seems odd that my actual TDEE would be so low.

Thanks!

I'm not arguing with you but I'm wondering what insurance you use that allows you to give internet advice?

I worry about stevia... I have always heard "fake" sugar is worse then the real thing

Rumours suck. Better than aspartame (which can lead to Aneurysms) and most certainly better than pure sugar!

I keep my sugar under 24g a day easy.. I have learned to do without excess sugar, stevia I take is in my protein powder. I don't add sugar to anything.. may be worth it for you to either learn to live without adding sugar to your drinks or find an alternative.

Stevia is not a sugar it is a PLANT that is sweet. Stevia extract is what you are buying at the store. I know peope who actually grow the stevia plant, dry it, grind it and use it just like that.
if you have more questions I suggest you google it and find out if there are any documented side effects related to the plant and its parts. as far as I know it is fine to use as a sweetner

Experience is also a learning experience as well. Experience is greater than formal education. For example, who would you rather learn from. A book who teaches you to lose weight, or someone who has already achieved the weight loss you want?

How about someone who has both an education and successful clients?

Experience is also a learning experience as well. Experience is greater than formal education. For example, who would you rather learn from. A book who teaches you to lose weight, or someone who has already achieved the weight loss you want?

How about someone who has both an education and successful clients?

Generally I'll go with that too. I just wrote a topic on the biggest loser, how the people are treated pretty bad. Their trainers have a good reputation, but doesn't mean they're doing things the right way.

Sounds contradictory to what you said earlier as you said you'd go with the experience person over a formal education. It seems to me that you are trying to lump up weight loss into one way, your way.