Low Calories, or Low Carbs? What is better.....

As for the second, I've seen enough studies yield conflicting results and different people/groups reviewing the same data coming up with different conclusions that I tend to take most studies with a grain of salt. Not talking just weight-loss related ones but in many arenas. I'm not saying they don't have value but I just don't get really hung up on them.

Oh, I completely agree with this. I only provided the studies above because I was asked for them. There are conflicting studies out there. And there were many study participants that didn't fall in to the "most" category.

It's like when people say XXX study showed that most people don't stick to low carb diets long term as if that proves it's a bad diet. They seem to miss the point that XXX study did not show that zero people could stick to it long term.

Low carbs, all day long.

Everybody is different. What works for one might not work for another. For me, low carb works really well, and I like it. Find what works for you and what makes you feel better.

Personally, I believe in low-carb AND low cal.
Here's why:

BOTH, Calories AND Carbs are sources/units of energy!
ENERGY is stored as fat if not used up, so obviously you want to watch your intake of both. NOT just one or the other!
One can get fat from too many calories PERIOD, whether it comes from excess fat, carbs, OR protein.
Plain and simple, a caloric surplus makes one fat, no matter what macro nutrient it comes from.

If you stop consuming carbs (or consume a VERY low amount of it) you will eventually put your body into a state of Ketosis when your Glycogen stores are burned up. By being in Ketosis AND ALSO in a caloric deficit your body will have no choice but to burn it's fat as energy.
That's the most efficient way of losing FAT.

It makes me laugh at how people talk about losing "weight".
What kind of weight are we discussing? You have: water weight, muscle weight, bone weight, FAT!
People don't want to lose "weight" (it's too broad a term), we want to lose FAT, nobody wants to lose muscle as we also lose strength when doing so!

Another thing that makes me laugh is how people talk about how low carb diets are "no good due to the fact that people gain back the weight when they re-introduce carbs back in".
First off, why is that, and what kind of weight is it they regain?
Is it water weight?
A good portion of it will be, that is to be expected because Glycogen stores require water!!
Read: http://www.justinowings.com/understanding-bodyweight-and-glycogen-de/
Nothing wrong with the water weight, our bodies need water.
Also, are they gaining fat again or are they gaining muscle?
If you "quit" dieting and go back to eating where you're now in a caloric surplus of course you'll gain weight!
If you're not active/exercising, of course you'll put on fat!

Now to those that talk about losing weight on low cal diets, how much of that weight was muscle?
I honestly think using our bodies Ketogenic state is beneficial for burning fat, and for BaZnGa who discusses that other nutrients can be broken down for the use of energy such as protein, yes that can happen, BUT, one's body will first turn to it's fat stores first, after all, that's where it's energy was first stored, therefore it would make sense that it would just reconvert that fat wouldn't it?

If one is doing resistance (weight) training that protein will be synthesized for muscle growth instead, esp if one knows what they're doing and is supplementing properly (Glutamine, BCAA's, Creatine, Multivitamin, Omega 3, etc).

Also, weight training for maintaining muscles (if not building them) and burning fat instead is VERY important, as our strength relies on our muscles.
The more muscular we are the more calories we burn as well so it's a win-win!

Personally, I believe in low-carb AND low cal.
Here's why:

BOTH, Calories AND Carbs are sources/units of energy!
ENERGY is stored as fat if not used up, so obviously you want to watch your intake of both. NOT just one or the other!
One can get fat from too many calories PERIOD, whether it comes from excess fat, carbs, OR protein.
Plain and simple, a caloric surplus makes one fat, no matter what macro nutrient it comes from.

If you stop consuming carbs (or consume a VERY low amount of it) you will eventually put your body into a state of Ketosis when your Glycogen stores are burned up. By being in Ketosis AND ALSO in a caloric deficit your body will have no choice but to burn it's fat as energy.
That's the most efficient way of losing FAT.

It makes me laugh at how people talk about losing "weight".
What kind of weight are we discussing? You have: water weight, muscle weight, bone weight, FAT!
People don't want to lose "weight" (it's too broad a term), we want to lose FAT, nobody wants to lose muscle as we also lose strength when doing so!

Another thing that makes me laugh is how people talk about how low carb diets are "no good due to the fact that people gain back the weight when they re-introduce carbs back in".
First off, why is that, and what kind of weight is it they regain?
Is it water weight?
A good portion of it will be, that is to be expected because Glycogen stores require water!!
Read: http://www.justinowings.com/understanding-bodyweight-and-glycogen-de/
Nothing wrong with the water weight, our bodies need water.
Also, are they gaining fat again or are they gaining muscle?
If you "quit" dieting and go back to eating where you're now in a caloric surplus of course you'll gain weight!
If you're not active/exercising, of course you'll put on fat!

Now to those that talk about losing weight on low cal diets, how much of that weight was muscle?
I honestly think using our bodies Ketogenic state is beneficial for burning fat, and for BaZnGa who discusses that other nutrients can be broken down for the use of energy such as protein, yes that can happen, BUT, one's body will first turn to it's fat stores first, after all, that's where it's energy was first stored, therefore it would make sense that it would just reconvert that fat wouldn't it?

If one is doing resistance (weight) training that protein will be synthesized for muscle growth instead, esp if one knows what they're doing and is supplementing properly (Glutamine, BCAA's, Creatine, Multivitamin, Omega 3, etc).

Also, weight training for maintaining muscles (if not building them) and burning fat instead is VERY important, as our strength relies on our muscles.
The more muscular we are the more calories we burn as well so it's a win-win!

Huge flaw to this mode of thinking. Fat is burned most efficiently when it can be burned along with glycogen. Ketosis is actually an incredibly inefficient way to burn fat. Your body would spend plenty of time catabolizing muscle in order to convert the protein into glucose, to create glycogen for the fat burning process, which can lead to significant lean mass loss. The human body wants to conserve as much fat as possible, and burn as little as possible at a time, which is why it reaches optimal efficiency when you maintain a decent amount of glycogen (for one thing, fat burning is incredibly slow compared to glycogen, and fat alone would never be able to keep up with intense demand.) So, you end up with muscle catabolism, and most of the protein you consume being converted to glycogen to maintain demand, in essence, spinning your wheels.

This is why there are very few professional athletes, powerlifters, and bodybuilders that eat low carb for more than a few weeks at a time (generally for a body builder, right before competition, to facilitate dehydration to allow muscles to appear more defined, for other athletes, it's usually to facilitate dehydration in order to make weight, then they load up on carbs right after the official weigh in.) It's just an incredibly inefficient way of going about it.

I need to eat carbs to feel fuller/satisifed.Oats for brekky means for example I do not always need a midmorning snack and I often have raisin toast for breakfast which does the same.If I eat protein(eggs etc) for brekky I am starving by 10 am and I dont usually eat early( about 8- 8.30 am).Everyone is different but I believe you need to eat a balanced diet and not cut out a whole food group

Huge flaw to this mode of thinking. Fat is burned most efficiently when it can be burned along with glycogen. Ketosis is actually an incredibly inefficient way to burn fat. Your body would spend plenty of time catabolizing muscle in order to convert the protein into glucose, to create glycogen for the fat burning process, which can lead to significant lean mass loss. The human body wants to conserve as much fat as possible, and burn as little as possible at a time, which is why it reaches optimal efficiency when you maintain a decent amount of glycogen (for one thing, fat burning is incredibly slow compared to glycogen, and fat alone would never be able to keep up with intense demand.) So, you end up with muscle catabolism, and most of the protein you consume being converted to glycogen to maintain demand, in essence, spinning your wheels.

[/quote]
None of this is accurate. None of reflects what actually happens in biochemistry.

1) keto-adaptation is the most efficient way to oxidize fatty-acids for ATP production, as our metabolism completely shifts to utilize fat for ATP generation for cellular respiration instead of glucose.

2) your body does not catabolize more lean-tissue, in-fact studies universally slow ketogenic diets preserve lean-muscle tissue far-better than any other.

3) glycogen is not required for the 'fat-burning' process in the keto-adapted individual. Glycogen is used for 'fat-burning' process in NON keto-adapted individuals only.

Basically everything you said has no basis in any science, and goes against every study of ketogenic dieters and athletes ever performed.

First, the information I presented is both straight from any modern biochemistry textbook and can also be found clearly outlined in Volek/Phinney's "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" and Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet"

If you can, using science, debunk anything they've written, please be my guest.

Lol

1) Then we should see significantly more fat loss for low carb/keto diets when protein and cals are held constant, yet the vast majority of tightly controlled studies do not show that, with Rabst, Kekwick and one or two others that show significantly greater fat loss for low carb/keto

The Kekwick study that I can find is 55 years old has has major flaws (small # of test subjects, short length 12-23 days depending on subject, etc.) but shows that those administered the high-fat/low-carb diet lost weight more-rapidly than the other diets, which is opposite of what you state.

I cannot find a Rabst study on ketogenic diets - do you have a link?

I can, however provide over a dozen studies showing VLCKD superior in several ways (weight-loss, lean-mass-retention, insulin-sensitivity, glycemic control, lipid profile, triglycerides) and will include all titles of the studies below.

2) Not universal, depending on the protein content of the diet, keto and low carb have been shown to be inferior

A low-carb ketogenic diet for diabetes is generally accepted to have a protein content of no more that 25%. The ratio is commonly considered 65/30/5 or 70/25/5 of fat/protein/carbohydrate. That's not a lot of variance. Do you have examples to support your claims?

Other than Phinney/Volek's "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" and Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet", I also have these studies:

"A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women"

"A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity"

"A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes"

"Comparison of a High-Carbohydrate Diet with a High-Monounsaturated-Fat Diet in Patients with Non-Insulin-Dependent Diabetes Mellitus"

"The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus"

"Effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet program compared to a low-fat diet on fasting lipoprotein subclasses"

"Comparison of Low Fat and Low Carbohydrate Diets on Circulating Fatty Acid Composition and Markers of Inflammation"

"Comparison of energy-restricted very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets on weight loss and body composition in overweight men and women"

"Lasting Improvement of Hyperglycaemia and Bodyweight: Low-carbohydrate Diet in Type 2 Diabetes. – A Brief Report"

"A Pilot Trial of a Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes"

"A Randomized Trial of a Low-Carbohydrate Diet for Obesity"

"Low-carbohydrate diets: an update on current research"

"Efficacy of low-carbohydrate diet in the treatment of obesity in adolescents"

"A ketogenic diet favorably affects serum biomarkers for cardiovascular disease in normal-weight men"

I have lost weight and gained weight my entire life on low carb diets. All the way up to 375 lbs. Lost a couple hundred pounds over a 25 year period never really getting to an ideal weight and always gaining it back. Lost weight and enjoyed low carb true Aitkins the best no carb then low carb 20 or less a day. Then I decided to get serious. at 375 started a weight and excercise regime primalily vegitables and very low fat foods. NO Comercial low fat foods. 1200 cals a day excercise and what I cal deprivation. I have found without deprivation I can not lose weight on a low cal diet. but in one years time I lost 125lbs on depravatin low calorie and excercise. I went off for several months gained 20lbs now back on 800 to 1100 calories a day for 5 weeks with excercise. I have lost the 20 plus 8 more. Now I am going to california for a vacation and I really feel if I switched to low carb for a month it would be so much easier to vacation and still diet. Does anyone here know if this would be a good idea or a bad one. Please help. BTW I have been drinking one VI-Shape Visalas shake a day just for vitamins and nutrients. Please help me with this dicission as I am not sure if I should do this for a month and then go back to low calorie for the next 6 months to get the last 50 lbs off.

Thank you for any help from this awesome forum.

Mr Jeff Levy

It cited a study that failed to control for calories or protein. The higher carb group ate about 2000 calories with a margin of error of over 400 calories. That means some (presumably the one that gained both LBM and fat) were eating around 2400 calories a day.

So is it the reduction in carbs, or the reduction in calories plus the increase in protein that made the difference? Honestly, pretty poor article.

In your case, I'm betting it's water retention.