5/3/1

So I want to move to a periodized routine, and I have heard of 5/3/1. Looks good to me, but after reading the book he seems like a bit of a bro (a no bs-bro, albeit). Of course if he's right who cares, so what do you guys know about 5/3/1?

It's pretty similar to the linear progression routine I'm doing now (4-6 x 3 sets, 5 days a week with big lifts) but introducing periodization has what seems like a pretty realistic goal structure.

Incidentally I also really like the last set to near rep failure part, excellent.

It's one of the most highly regarded programmes for Intermediate lifters. He has a 3 day full body set-up in the book if you're not intermediate yet. It's quite flexible with the assistance templates depending on what you want to achieve.

It's what I'm going to do myself eventually, but I want to have a crack at All Pro's version of Bill Starr's 636 NFL programme this winter first.

My boyfriend has been doing 5/3/1 for a couple months now and is pretty pleased with his progress. He's been into weight training for around 10 years, but never followed a program. As soon as he started 5/3/1 he made some nice gains. I can really see his muscles starting to become bigger and more defined. I can't remember which assistance template he chose, but it's one where you do 20reps or to failure for each assistance, and I think they're mostly body-weight exercises.

I'm doing Starting Strength right now and plan to switch over to a 5/3/1 type program when my progress begins to stall. I like the idea of having 1 big lift with a few assistance 4 days a week.

Been on it for 8 months and I dont really see any reason to change. Strength gains are still right on track and there are many options for the accessory work to reach whatever goals you want.

http://www.jimwendler.com/2011/09/531-for-a-beginner/

http://www.jimwendler.com/2012/09/531-and-bodybuilding/

I love it, though I'm not sure I'm in the same league as most people in this thread. I stalled out on stronglifts, and the periodized approach suits me better. I also like that fact that I can customize the accessory lifts to fit my needs (looks, strength, racing, etc).

It's a solid program for sure.

I love it, though I'm not sure I'm in the same league as most people in this thread. I stalled out on stronglifts, and the periodized approach suits me better. I also like that fact that I can customize the accessory lifts to fit my needs (looks, strength, racing, etc).

It's a solid program for sure.

I'm doing two accessory lifts per day, and right now I have my goals set at 5 sets x 10 reps per. What are you doing? I figure core lifts for strength, accessory lifts for looks.

Basically the same. Core lifts for strength, exactly to the program. Accessory lifts for looks and speed (I'm a triathlete). I'm coming off an injured shoulder and hip, so most of my warm-up focuses on keeping those loose and strong.

There is one thing though, 5 sets of 10 reps for each of the auxillary exercises... that amounts to a total of 115 reps per session + warmups.

That seems a little excessive to me. Is this really necessary? That's huge volume.

So far I've been doing doing maybe 72 on a particularly long day.

Again, not trying to be rude but as a self-admitted "noob"; stop questioning Jim and his methods and just do what he says to do. Over time you will learn what works for you but until then, just do it. Yes, 5 x 10 is a fair amount of volume but there is a reason behind it. Do the main work and follow hit BBB template if that's what you like. Keep the accessory work to key important movements including things like, romanian deadlifts, good mornings, bulgarian split-squats, lunges, dips, chin-ups, kroc rows, db rows, bb rows, db bench work, etc, etc, and throw in some ab work.

I figure core lifts for strength, accessory lifts for looks.

Accessory lifts are to help strengthen the main lifts. They also help with hypertrophy but the goal is to choose movements that support getting better at the main lifts.

5/3/1 still a good option for me? Starting strength isn't so different from what I see, and I definitely want something where the big lifts are split, and 4 days a week (currently doing 5-6 actually).

5/3/1 in my opinion is the better overall method. People say the gains are better with SL5x5 but you start with the bar and add a little weight each workout, whereas with 5/3/1 you start with a true percentage of your existing strength. So you're not necessarily getting stronger with each SL5x5 workout. If you can Squat 150lbs at the beginning then why start with just the bar and add 10lbs a workout when you can start with a true percentage of your strength? There's nothing wrong with SL5x5 per say but it's not better.

There is one thing though, 5 sets of 10 reps for each of the auxillary exercises... that amounts to a total of 115 reps per session + warmups.

That seems a little excessive to me. Is this really necessary? That's huge volume.

So far I've been doing doing maybe 72 on a particularly long day.

Again, not trying to be rude but as a self-admitted "noob"; stop questioning Jim and his methods and just do what he says to do. Over time you will learn what works for you but until then, just do it. Yes, 5 x 10 is a fair amount of volume but there is a reason behind it. Do the main work and follow hit BBB template if that's what you like. Keep the accessory work to key important movements including things like, romanian deadlifts, good mornings, bulgarian split-squats, lunges, dips, chin-ups, kroc rows, db rows, bb rows, db bench work, etc, etc, and throw in some ab work.

I figure core lifts for strength, accessory lifts for looks.

Accessory lifts are to help strengthen the main lifts. They also help with hypertrophy but the goal is to choose movements that support getting better at the main lifts.

5/3/1 still a good option for me? Starting strength isn't so different from what I see, and I definitely want something where the big lifts are split, and 4 days a week (currently doing 5-6 actually).

5/3/1 in my opinion is the better overall method. People say the gains are better with SL5x5 but you start with the bar and add a little weight each workout, whereas with 5/3/1 you start with a true percentage of your existing strength. So you're not necessarily getting stronger with each SL5x5 workout. If you can Squat 150lbs at the beginning then why start with just the bar and add 10lbs a workout when you can start with a true percentage of your strength? There's nothing wrong with SL5x5 per say but it's not better.

To some extent, yes... but not everyone has strength gains as their ONLY goal. I see nothing wrong with adding in some accessory work for vanity purposes, though it is good to recognize that this may slow progression in the big lifts.

To some extent, yes... but not everyone has strength gains as their ONLY goal. I see nothing wrong with adding in some accessory work for vanity purposes, though it is good to recognize that this may slow progression in the big lifts.

In the overall scope of exercise; I agree. However, within the confines of 5/3/1 itself then it's pretty clear in the book that the accessory movements should support getting better in the main lifts. You can definitely have hypertrophy gains from doing Dips or Chin-Ups, for example, for 5 sets of 10 reps and assuming the diet supports it. If the goal is really just to get big then one should follow more of bodybuilding plan. If people use 5/3/1 as laid-out and eat right then getting big will happen for sure.

That said, isn't 5x5 optimal?, even better than 5/3/1? 5x5 has you working out the same groups 3 times a week!

Having done 5/3/1 for quite a while I will say that after your Squat day and then your DL day, you will probably not want a 3rd lower body workout other than maybe some cardio. There is no optimal method, everything but maybe Westside training has it's weak points. But that's why a good program is flexible and once you learn it, you can tailor it to your needs. SL5x5 is inflexible, too rigid. There's nothing from stopping you to use the 5/3/1 3-day full body routine as well if you feel that squatting 3 times a week is optimal.

The one thing about 5/3/1 and getting stronger is that it's not just about adding plates. If in the 5/5/5+ workout you can bench 100lbs for 10 reps and then next month's 5/5/5+ workout you bench 105lbs for 11 or 12 reps you are effectively stronger because you benched a slightly heavier weight for more reps. What also happens as you progress is that you might stall and have to reset. In your first stretch of 5/3/1 you might bench 205lbs for 3 reps on 5/3/1 day but then when you get back to 5/3/1 after the reset you might bench 205lbs for 5 reps, again you're effectively stronger. So your personal records could either be weight related, rep related, or both.

I think you are over-thinking this far far far too much. Grab the book if you haven't, jot down your first month of lifts and just do it. Give it at least 3 or 4 cycles to give it a fair shot. You have a poster in this thread that has a 600lb lift just from doing 5/3/1, that's sick. LOL. Just do it!

On a side note, I've done sessions where I do 2 big lifts in 1 workout. I'll pair deadlifts (and accessory work) with OHP (and accessory work), and squats with bench press. That's a pretty brutal workout (especially in week 3 with heavier loads) that I don't do often, but it can be done if you want a bit more frequency.

Yes, you can definitely use the 2-day template but make the workouts Mon/Tue & Thu/Fri. You probably won't be able to maintain it for too long but it's a good way to shock your body, could break a plateau as well.

Yeah I've decided to try the following:

Sun - Bench & Squat
Mon - Press & Deadlift
Tues - Rest
Wed - Bench & Squat
Thurs - Rest
Fri - Press & Deadlift
Sat - Rest

I just really want something more aggressive, and using 5/3/1 gives me the periodization scheme that I like along with flexible 3rd sets. This way I hit everything 2 times a week, I will definitely take advantage of the deload week (maybe do the 4 day routine for that one) and I'll be optimizing gains.

This also periodizes the rest between big lifts... which is interesting, I wonder how that will play out. But two full days between a given big lift (where I'm not lifting my 5RM) should be plently.

I would re-work the split, especially Sunday and Monday. If you are doing 5/3/1 for bench on Sunday that will affect your OHP on Monday as bench does use a alot of shoulder girdle and both bench and press use tris as a secondary. Same thing with squats and deads. Both movements use some of the same muscle groups. If you do 5/3/1 for squat on Sunday your 5/3/1 for deads will more than likely suffer. You could split like this:
Sun-Bench 5/3/1 OHP 5x10 at 50% of max. Add 10% every 4 weeks.
Mon Squat 5/3/1, Deadlift 5x10 at 50% max add 10% every 4 weeks
Tues-rest
Wed OHP 5/3/1, Bench 5x10 at 50% max add 10% every 4 weeks
Thurs rest
Fri Deadlift 5/3/1, Squat 5x10 at 50% max add 10% every 4 weeks.

I do like the 2-day x 2 plan. I still recommend trying the 4-day plan first and then adjusting. The 2-day x 2 plan is cool but it's not something you can likely maintain for a long time. Maybe do 2 or 3 months normal, then do a month of high-intensity and then deload and switch back? Don't know, just be careful. It's very easy to succeed with 5/3/1 but it's also very easy to set yourself up for failure. Especially during the 2 x 2 plan I would recommend eating big, real big.

routines like 5x5 have you doing nearly all of this in a single day (alternating BB Rows and DL though)

Try not to confuse frequency with load and intensity. If you are busting your *kitten* on the main lift and pushing yourself on the assistance work it's quite different. 5x5 is not as intense as 5/31 and I don't really feel like the load is all that bad either. I've done the intermediate 5x5 and although it was a little tough on my hip-flexors, I never felt drained or ever felt like I needed a rest. My hip-flexor issue was really more my fault than the programming. 5x5 never made me feel like passing-out after Deadlifting and 5/3/1 pretty much did every week, especially at the beginning when you're still pushing a lot of reps on the 5/5/5+ and 3/3/3+ weeks. Pushing myself on a 4-day 5/3/1 split I did appreciate the de-load week at times, while other times I actually skipped the deload, some cycles I actually added a 5th day and did Power Cleans in the 5/3/1 format; it just completely depended on how I felt.

Man I sound like a jerk sometimes.... I'll apologize now. You haven't even tried the program yet and I don't think you've done 5x5 either so you're making comparisons solely off what you've read, which I hope includes the 2nd edition 5/3/1 book, and theory. Until you do 5/3/1 you simply don't know anything until you've experienced it and experienced it for a while.

Keep it simple, don't over-think things, learn from experience and those that have experience.

I hear you man and I appreciate the input. Thing is I know for a fact that I can handle the 4 day split without any issue at all, since my routine for the past 3 months has been a 5 day split always lifting the absolute heaviest I can for 6 reps and 3 sets, including all of the big 4 exercises. And it was without a deload week. The only differences with 5/3/1 in actuality is the periodization which will actually make all of it easier, and the introduction of the last rep to excess (which after the first two graduated lifts is just plain fun lol)

Since I'm doubling the frequency, I'm going to cut back the sets on the assessory work to 3 vs 5 so I can get all the work in under an hour, take it easy, and actually add 1 set per week to a given exercise.

Seriously everyones input has been awesome, wholeheartedly appreciated. I'll be posting how it goes eventually (hopefully not too soon, because that would mean it wooped my *kitten* lol) so anyone interested can get a feel for how it's gone.

Awesome. Post back here from time-to-time and let us know how it's going for you.

I hope no one minds, but I'd like to tack on a question, if I may. I'm considering switching to this set up from 5x5 because all the squatting plus training for a 5K and 10K was murdering my legs. I'd like to do the 3 day rotation, but would love it if I could keep the 3 days the same, so was considering double up two lifts. So, should I do M: Squat, W: Bench/OHP F: Deadlift, or should I combine one of the upper body focused lifts with one of the lower body focused lifts?

I'll go back to what I've said in the past... I really think you need to pick a focus and put your emphasis there. If that means you only lift once or twice a week, then so be it. If that means you cut back on your running, then ok. But tryign to go all out with both your lifting and running is going to wear you out fast.

That said, IME, this program is far more intense than 5x5. I'd rather do a 5x5 route twice a week with a bunch of cardio than almost any variation of a 5.3.1 program. Wendler kills me.

Oh, and FWIW... I'm doing wendler 3ish times per week now (during race season) with almost no leg work. It's just too much with my riding and running.

.

I guess I didn't think of it that way. I looked at it more as, I'm only doing the big lifts once a week. It was the 3 times a week squatting that was killing me. I've knocked that off in the past 2 weeks, and my legs feel so much better during runs, and I find I've got my eating under better control as well. I'm definitely run focused right now. I'm running Madcow's 5x5 right now that has 5x5 on M for squat, bench and rows, 4x5 on W for squat, OHP and deads, then on F you do the same as Monday's first 4, go up in weight for 1 set of three, then go to the third set's weight for a set of 8. Right now I'm doing Monday as written, OHP on Wed., light deadlifts until my legs feel better, no squats and Friday as written, except lighter on or no squats, depending on how I feel. I was thinking that was too much butchering of the program. I'm really mostly concerned with preserving muscle while I'm getting in lots of cardio and cutting. (Sorry for the hijack.)

I hope no one minds, but I'd like to tack on a question, if I may. I'm considering switching to this set up from 5x5 because all the squatting plus training for a 5K and 10K was murdering my legs. I'd like to do the 3 day rotation, but would love it if I could keep the 3 days the same, so was considering double up two lifts. So, should I do M: Squat, W: Bench/OHP F: Deadlift, or should I combine one of the upper body focused lifts with one of the lower body focused lifts?

I'll go back to what I've said in the past... I really think you need to pick a focus and put your emphasis there. If that means you only lift once or twice a week, then so be it. If that means you cut back on your running, then ok. But tryign to go all out with both your lifting and running is going to wear you out fast.

That said, IME, this program is far more intense than 5x5. I'd rather do a 5x5 route twice a week with a bunch of cardio than almost any variation of a 5.3.1 program. Wendler kills me.

Oh, and FWIW... I'm doing wendler 3ish times per week now (during race season) with almost no leg work. It's just too much with my riding and running.

.

The "5/3/1 kills me" thing, I don't really understand what part of the program kills people vs. say 5x5 where you are doing 5 sets vs. 3 sets in 5/3/1. You're a triathlete so I'm interested, is it the final reps to exhaustion part?

It is worth mentioning that I have previously been doing linear progression 5 day split, 3 sets of 6 at maximal weight to complete.

Yes, it's mostly the volume that comes with the final set, but also the accessory lifts. Since we're talking about legs, let's focus on squats. I've never been especially strong, but as a triathlete I have pretty good muscular endurance. So with 5x5 I'd struggle to do 5 sets of 5 reps at 225, but feel fine an hour after the session was over. With Wendler, I do something like 185x5, 185x5, 185x12, then move right into weighted lunges, and then be basically crippled the rest of the day.

So for me the additional volume along with complimentary accessory lifts makes 5/3/1 a MUCH more intense program.