NON PALEO please .. Coconut oil v olive oil (virgin)

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Replies

  • jennifershoo
    jennifershoo Posts: 3,198 Member
    why is coconut oil considered paleo? Can you explain how to refine coconut oil using only palaeolithic technology please?

    Not *refined* coconut oil Unrefined, extra-virgin, cold pressed coconut oil. :)

    okay, but how do you get from coconuts to that using only palaeolithic technology?

    You use whatever extra virgins you have sitting around and make them press it for you.

    lol @ virgins

    press them with what though?

    Their thighs, dude, their thighs!!!
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    why is coconut oil considered paleo? Can you explain how to refine coconut oil using only palaeolithic technology please?

    Not *refined* coconut oil Unrefined, extra-virgin, cold pressed coconut oil. :)

    okay, but how do you get from coconuts to that using only palaeolithic technology?

    You use whatever extra virgins you have sitting around and make them press it for you.

    lol @ virgins

    press them with what though?

    Their thighs, dude, their thighs!!!

    :laugh:
  • jakkisr
    jakkisr Posts: 175 Member
    Well, well, well ... Thank you for your input everyone!

    Barbaratrollm on page 3 sums up plenty of what I was thinking (perhaps a little enthusiastic so ill reserve judgement til I see results). Thank you to everyone else who contributed sensibly.

    Yes, I'm eating both my usual extra virgin olive oil and also a tablespoon of the unrefined virgin coconut oil a day. I'm also putting it on my skin - and it feels and looks great! There is now ay I could ever give up the olive oil!
  • Charlottesometimes23
    Charlottesometimes23 Posts: 687 Member


    Anecdotal evidence is good enough? Why not put the extra effort into finding research based and not just one person's opinion?
    Have you been to a nutritionist? I've been to a couple and can tell you they aren't all equal and often give info on how to improve one person's health- not what is best overall.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570335
    Fatty acids undergo different metabolic fates depending on their chain length and degree of saturation. The purpose of this review is to examine the metabolic handling of medium chain fatty acids (MCFA) with specific reference to intermediary metabolism and postprandial and total energy expenditure. The metabolic discrimination between varying fatty acids begins in the GI tract, with MCFA being absorbed more efficiently than long chain fatty acids (LFCA). Subsequently, MCFA are transported in the portal blood directly to the liver, unlike LCFA which are incorporated into chylomicrons and transported through lymph. These structure based differences continue through the processes of fat utilization; MCFA enter the mitochondria independently of the carnitine transport system and undergo preferential oxidation. Variations in ketogenic and lipogenic capacity also exist. Such metabolic discrimination is supported by data in animals and humans showing increases in postprandial energy expenditure after short term feeding with MCFA. In long term MCFA feeding in animals, weight accretion has been attenuated. These differences in metabolic handling of MCFA versus LCFA are considered with the conclusion that MCFA hold potential as weight loss agents.
    That's a 15 yo review article. In the 15 years since that article there are just as many studies showing little benefit of MCFAs as there are showing benefit, so my impression is that the jury is still out.

    I get very suspicious of 'nutrition experts' making these unsubstantiated claims about the amazing properties of coconut oil. In my opinion there need to be a lot more well designed human studies before any definite conclusions can be made.
    That article is just one of many. I could post 20 or 30 more recent ones, but I get the impression that may not suffice either. That study didn't mention coconut oil, it just common knowledge regarding MCT's.....


    Yes, I understood what was in the article and it wasn't a research study, it was a review article....there is a big difference.

    The thing is, for your 20 -30 articles (which i doubt) I could probably find a similar number saying the opposite. It's well and good to post Pubmed articles but its also important to be able to interpret them.

    In my opinion, coconut oil is just a fad until we have more evidence.

    (Damn, I think I stuffed up the quoting thing on my iPad)
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,261 Member


    Anecdotal evidence is good enough? Why not put the extra effort into finding research based and not just one person's opinion?
    Have you been to a nutritionist? I've been to a couple and can tell you they aren't all equal and often give info on how to improve one person's health- not what is best overall.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570335
    Fatty acids undergo different metabolic fates depending on their chain length and degree of saturation. The purpose of this review is to examine the metabolic handling of medium chain fatty acids (MCFA) with specific reference to intermediary metabolism and postprandial and total energy expenditure. The metabolic discrimination between varying fatty acids begins in the GI tract, with MCFA being absorbed more efficiently than long chain fatty acids (LFCA). Subsequently, MCFA are transported in the portal blood directly to the liver, unlike LCFA which are incorporated into chylomicrons and transported through lymph. These structure based differences continue through the processes of fat utilization; MCFA enter the mitochondria independently of the carnitine transport system and undergo preferential oxidation. Variations in ketogenic and lipogenic capacity also exist. Such metabolic discrimination is supported by data in animals and humans showing increases in postprandial energy expenditure after short term feeding with MCFA. In long term MCFA feeding in animals, weight accretion has been attenuated. These differences in metabolic handling of MCFA versus LCFA are considered with the conclusion that MCFA hold potential as weight loss agents.
    That's a 15 yo review article. In the 15 years since that article there are just as many studies showing little benefit of MCFAs as there are showing benefit, so my impression is that the jury is still out.

    I get very suspicious of 'nutrition experts' making these unsubstantiated claims about the amazing properties of coconut oil. In my opinion there need to be a lot more well designed human studies before any definite conclusions can be made.
    That article is just one of many. I could post 20 or 30 more recent ones, but I get the impression that may not suffice either. That study didn't mention coconut oil, it just common knowledge regarding MCT's.....


    Yes, I understood what was in the article and it wasn't a research study, it was a review article....there is a big difference.

    The thing is, for your 20 -30 articles (which i doubt) I could probably find a similar number saying the opposite. It's well and good to post Pubmed articles but its also important to be able to interpret them.

    In my opinion, coconut oil is just a fad until we have more evidence.

    (Damn, I think I stuffed up the quoting thing on my iPad)
    Faced with the choice between changing one's mind or proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. I suspect you'll not ever do any research and continue to repeat we need more evidence, when in fact that "review article" and it's substance is common knowledge for people that actually study lipids.
  • megsmom2
    megsmom2 Posts: 2,362 Member
    olive oil and coconut oil both have fairly similar calorie counts, and both have health advantages...so ultimately--go with taste, and what you're using it for. Olive has a lower smoke point so not the best choice for sautee or frying. Coconut has a higher smoke point...but a distinctive flavor that you may not want in all your food. So..use each where it makes sense to use it!
  • Charlottesometimes23
    Charlottesometimes23 Posts: 687 Member


    Anecdotal evidence is good enough? Why not put the extra effort into finding research based and not just one person's opinion?
    Have you been to a nutritionist? I've been to a couple and can tell you they aren't all equal and often give info on how to improve one person's health- not what is best overall.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570335
    Fatty acids undergo different metabolic fates depending on their chain length and degree of saturation. The purpose of this review is to examine the metabolic handling of medium chain fatty acids (MCFA) with specific reference to intermediary metabolism and postprandial and total energy expenditure. The metabolic discrimination between varying fatty acids begins in the GI tract, with MCFA being absorbed more efficiently than long chain fatty acids (LFCA). Subsequently, MCFA are transported in the portal blood directly to the liver, unlike LCFA which are incorporated into chylomicrons and transported through lymph. These structure based differences continue through the processes of fat utilization; MCFA enter the mitochondria independently of the carnitine transport system and undergo preferential oxidation. Variations in ketogenic and lipogenic capacity also exist. Such metabolic discrimination is supported by data in animals and humans showing increases in postprandial energy expenditure after short term feeding with MCFA. In long term MCFA feeding in animals, weight accretion has been attenuated. These differences in metabolic handling of MCFA versus LCFA are considered with the conclusion that MCFA hold potential as weight loss agents.
    That's a 15 yo review article. In the 15 years since that article there are just as many studies showing little benefit of MCFAs as there are showing benefit, so my impression is that the jury is still out.

    I get very suspicious of 'nutrition experts' making these unsubstantiated claims about the amazing properties of coconut oil. In my opinion there need to be a lot more well designed human studies before any definite conclusions can be made.
    That article is just one of many. I could post 20 or 30 more recent ones, but I get the impression that may not suffice either. That study didn't mention coconut oil, it just common knowledge regarding MCT's.....


    Yes, I understood what was in the article and it wasn't a research study, it was a review article....there is a big difference.

    The thing is, for your 20 -30 articles (which i doubt) I could probably find a similar number saying the opposite. It's well and good to post Pubmed articles but its also important to be able to interpret them.

    In my opinion, coconut oil is just a fad until we have more evidence.

    (Damn, I think I stuffed up the quoting thing on my iPad)
    Faced with the choice between changing one's mind or proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. I suspect you'll not ever do any research and continue to repeat we need more evidence, when in fact that "review article" and it's substance is common knowledge for people that actually study lipids.
    You're funny.

    I've done plenty of research on this topic and my opinion is certainly an educated one. Of course, I'm anonymous like most other posters so you know nothing about me and my ability to critically analyse scientific research. All I can say is that I can, and I do. A part of that review article is common knowledge, the part about potential benefits for weight loss is not. Fifteen years on and the jury is still out on that aspect.

    You obviously don't cope well with people who disagree with you and call you out for posting an old review article as evidence to prove a point of view.

    You should spend a day in academia...lol
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,261 Member


    Anecdotal evidence is good enough? Why not put the extra effort into finding research based and not just one person's opinion?
    Have you been to a nutritionist? I've been to a couple and can tell you they aren't all equal and often give info on how to improve one person's health- not what is best overall.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570335
    Fatty acids undergo different metabolic fates depending on their chain length and degree of saturation. The purpose of this review is to examine the metabolic handling of medium chain fatty acids (MCFA) with specific reference to intermediary metabolism and postprandial and total energy expenditure. The metabolic discrimination between varying fatty acids begins in the GI tract, with MCFA being absorbed more efficiently than long chain fatty acids (LFCA). Subsequently, MCFA are transported in the portal blood directly to the liver, unlike LCFA which are incorporated into chylomicrons and transported through lymph. These structure based differences continue through the processes of fat utilization; MCFA enter the mitochondria independently of the carnitine transport system and undergo preferential oxidation. Variations in ketogenic and lipogenic capacity also exist. Such metabolic discrimination is supported by data in animals and humans showing increases in postprandial energy expenditure after short term feeding with MCFA. In long term MCFA feeding in animals, weight accretion has been attenuated. These differences in metabolic handling of MCFA versus LCFA are considered with the conclusion that MCFA hold potential as weight loss agents.
    That's a 15 yo review article. In the 15 years since that article there are just as many studies showing little benefit of MCFAs as there are showing benefit, so my impression is that the jury is still out.

    I get very suspicious of 'nutrition experts' making these unsubstantiated claims about the amazing properties of coconut oil. In my opinion there need to be a lot more well designed human studies before any definite conclusions can be made.
    That article is just one of many. I could post 20 or 30 more recent ones, but I get the impression that may not suffice either. That study didn't mention coconut oil, it just common knowledge regarding MCT's.....


    Yes, I understood what was in the article and it wasn't a research study, it was a review article....there is a big difference.

    The thing is, for your 20 -30 articles (which i doubt) I could probably find a similar number saying the opposite. It's well and good to post Pubmed articles but its also important to be able to interpret them.

    In my opinion, coconut oil is just a fad until we have more evidence.

    (Damn, I think I stuffed up the quoting thing on my iPad)
    Faced with the choice between changing one's mind or proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. I suspect you'll not ever do any research and continue to repeat we need more evidence, when in fact that "review article" and it's substance is common knowledge for people that actually study lipids.
    You're funny.

    I've done plenty of research on this topic and my opinion is certainly an educated one. Of course, I'm anonymous like most other posters so you know nothing about me and my ability to critically analyse scientific research. All I can say is that I can, and I do. A part of that review article is common knowledge, the part about potential benefits for obesity is not. Fifteen years on and the jury is still out on that aspect.

    You obviously don't cope well with people who disagree with you and call you out for posting outdated review articles as evidence to prove a point.

    You should spend a day in academia...lol
    There is no dispute, you haven't actually put forth any argument. If you actually had an argument, then we could possibly get somewhere. There was also no mention of any potenial benefits for obesity, so I'm not sure what that has to do with the science of MCT's.
  • Charlottesometimes23
    Charlottesometimes23 Posts: 687 Member


    Anecdotal evidence is good enough? Why not put the extra effort into finding research based and not just one person's opinion?
    Have you been to a nutritionist? I've been to a couple and can tell you they aren't all equal and often give info on how to improve one person's health- not what is best overall.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570335
    Fatty acids undergo different metabolic fates depending on their chain length and degree of saturation. The purpose of this review is to examine the metabolic handling of medium chain fatty acids (MCFA) with specific reference to intermediary metabolism and postprandial and total energy expenditure. The metabolic discrimination between varying fatty acids begins in the GI tract, with MCFA being absorbed more efficiently than long chain fatty acids (LFCA). Subsequently, MCFA are transported in the portal blood directly to the liver, unlike LCFA which are incorporated into chylomicrons and transported through lymph. These structure based differences continue through the processes of fat utilization; MCFA enter the mitochondria independently of the carnitine transport system and undergo preferential oxidation. Variations in ketogenic and lipogenic capacity also exist. Such metabolic discrimination is supported by data in animals and humans showing increases in postprandial energy expenditure after short term feeding with MCFA. In long term MCFA feeding in animals, weight accretion has been attenuated. These differences in metabolic handling of MCFA versus LCFA are considered with the conclusion that MCFA hold potential as weight loss agents.
    That's a 15 yo review article. In the 15 years since that article there are just as many studies showing little benefit of MCFAs as there are showing benefit, so my impression is that the jury is still out.

    I get very suspicious of 'nutrition experts' making these unsubstantiated claims about the amazing properties of coconut oil. In my opinion there need to be a lot more well designed human studies before any definite conclusions can be made.
    That article is just one of many. I could post 20 or 30 more recent ones, but I get the impression that may not suffice either. That study didn't mention coconut oil, it just common knowledge regarding MCT's.....


    Yes, I understood what was in the article and it wasn't a research study, it was a review article....there is a big difference.

    The thing is, for your 20 -30 articles (which i doubt) I could probably find a similar number saying the opposite. It's well and good to post Pubmed articles but its also important to be able to interpret them.

    In my opinion, coconut oil is just a fad until we have more evidence.

    (Damn, I think I stuffed up the quoting thing on my iPad)
    Faced with the choice between changing one's mind or proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. I suspect you'll not ever do any research and continue to repeat we need more evidence, when in fact that "review article" and it's substance is common knowledge for people that actually study lipids.
    You're funny.

    I've done plenty of research on this topic and my opinion is certainly an educated one. Of course, I'm anonymous like most other posters so you know nothing about me and my ability to critically analyse scientific research. All I can say is that I can, and I do. A part of that review article is common knowledge, the part about potential benefits for obesity is not. Fifteen years on and the jury is still out on that aspect.

    You obviously don't cope well with people who disagree with you and call you out for posting outdated review articles as evidence to prove a point.

    You should spend a day in academia...lol
    There is no dispute, you haven't actually put forth any argument. If you actually had an argument, then we could possibly get somewhere. There was also no mention of any potenial benefits for obesity, so I'm not sure what that has to do with the science of MCT's.
    Weight loss, not obesity...my mistake.

    You're correct, there is no dispute. The evidence you used to prove a point many, many posts back was poor. I questioned it, along with the validity of some of the MCT and coconut oil claims and now here we are.

    I'm not going to trawl through research articles and post a critical analysis of their methodology, stats, claims, journal impact factors, author affiliations etc. I'm also not going to write my own review on the topic. I have spent some time reading and I have formed an opinion. Again, it is that there is not enough evidence to claim many of the health benefits of coconut oil that was posted way, way back in this thread.

    You, of course, are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. The OP was interested in opinions I believe.
  • ssdivot
    ssdivot Posts: 193
    why is coconut oil considered paleo? Can you explain how to refine coconut oil using only palaeolithic technology please?

    Not *refined* coconut oil Unrefined, extra-virgin, cold pressed coconut oil. :)

    okay, but how do you get from coconuts to that using only palaeolithic technology?

    Duh Mrs. Cavewoman, not Mr. Caveman cuz he was only good for hunting lazy SOB, she would get rock pure alkaline rocks because Mrs. Cavewoman was concerned about blood acidity and then she would take her big extra virgin wolly mammoth and smash the coconuts between the rocks until a fine oil was pressed. Then the pterodactyl would collect the oil and smear it all over her voluptuous cavewoman body in preparation for the ritualistic fertility dance after the harvesting of the unrefined coconuts. Gah, learn something I suggest watching episodes of Fred Flinstone.


    Rofl, cute!
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    coconut oil activates your metabolism better when it comes to burning fat calories.

    Have any peer reviewed scientific studies that backs up that assertion?

    http://www.lee-annewann.com/coconut-magic.aspx

    and i'm not entering into debate. I have looked into it. I don't really care if people disagree. Theres enough to convince me.

    No debate for sure. You believe a page of blog marketing backed by nothing resembling actual science. Seems legit.

    I think the answer to your question was a 'no' then :tongue:

    see, this kinda crap is why these forums aren't the resource they could be. ANECDOTAL evidence is good enough for many. Oh and the 'blogger'? She's a highly respected NZ nutritionist, trainer and health guru. Works with one of our national teams. So yeah, I'd listen to her.

    Anecdotal evidence is a story, from a biased data source who often doesn't have the educational background to properly report and analyze results. That's just how it is. This place could be a much better resource if people added scientific data to the blogs they point to.

    I tihnk it's great you read blogs and believe that this person is who they say they are, but I just *wish* people would either go to school and learn how to question data and assertions, or self educate on how to do that. Blogger evidence is not equal to empirical evidence from well respected and highly trained scientists. That is published in a scientific journal after rigourous proofing.

    Bloggers = brosci until there is a peer reviewed article to back up their claims. Bonus points if said blogger is the first author or the PI.

    Just say no to broscience. /psa
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    Actually she appears to have no credible qualifications in nutrition, but....whatever, she certainly likes to push her coconut oil agenda.

    I've always wondered, how does one train to be a 'health guru'?

    I think it's the same training as becoming a religious guru or network marketing guru. You just slap it on a card and create some linkable blog pages.

    Now, I'll go ahead and say, yeah, you're totally a guru if you have say... a Ph.D. in the field you are purporting to be an expert in. If not, not feeling it. I've spent too much of my life listening to false prophets that are only hunting the profits to not require more. :)
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    why is coconut oil considered paleo? Can you explain how to refine coconut oil using only palaeolithic technology please?

    Not *refined* coconut oil Unrefined, extra-virgin, cold pressed coconut oil. :)

    okay, but how do you get from coconuts to that using only palaeolithic technology?

    Duh Mrs. Cavewoman, not Mr. Caveman cuz he was only good for hunting lazy SOB, she would get rock pure alkaline rocks because Mrs. Cavewoman was concerned about blood acidity and then she would take her big extra virgin wolly mammoth and smash the coconuts between the rocks until a fine oil was pressed. Then the pterodactyl would collect the oil and smear it all over her voluptuous cavewoman body in preparation for the ritualistic fertility dance after the harvesting of the unrefined coconuts. Gah, learn something I suggest watching episodes of Fred Flinstone.


    Rofl, cute!

    I agree re LOL. However Fred Flintstone has not published any new research for quite a while. May I suggest The Croods instead, especially as it's available in 3D
  • Charlottesometimes23
    Charlottesometimes23 Posts: 687 Member
    Actually she appears to have no credible qualifications in nutrition, but....whatever, she certainly likes to push her coconut oil agenda.

    I've always wondered, how does one train to be a 'health guru'?

    I think it's the same training as becoming a religious guru or network marketing guru. You just slap it on a card and create some linkable blog pages.

    Now, I'll go ahead and say, yeah, you're totally a guru if you have say... a Ph.D. in the field you are purporting to be an expert in. If not, not feeling it. I've spent too much of my life listening to false prophets that are only hunting the profits to not require more. :)

    Agree wholeheartedly. :wink:
  • amandajones1978
    amandajones1978 Posts: 140
    I use coconut oil for high heat cooking and I use olive oil for salads and medium heat cooking like sauteeing vegetables.


    Olive oil has a lower smoke point, between 365° and 420°F. When you heat olive oil to its smoke point, the beneficial compounds in oil start to degrade, and potentially health-harming compounds form. This is what my dietician/Personal Trainer has been telling me, he also has a culinary degree.

    What I can tell you from personal experience over the previous year from using coconut oil is I just received my blood lab report last week. Raised my "Happy" Cholesterol into the normal range and lowered my LDL by 10 points. And honestly, I do not taste any difference when I cook with coconut oil.

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