THE BIG STARVATION MODE MYTH.

dammit. people on this forum have an honest obsession with Lyle McDonald. I don't get it. He is theoretically right on everything, and has the science to back it up.

why do ppl like him so much? omg

I don't care for him at all. He's right about some things and sooooo wrong about others that it's gotten to the point where he's almost as bad as Martin Leangains. At least Martin replied to me when I challenged him, he might have been drunk though, it was way too easy to poke holes.

Back to the topic.
None of us here have experienced starvation, actual starvation.

Have any of you read the book 'Hunger' by Sharman Apt Russell, or anything close to it? If so message me, please. Sorry, slightly off topic there.

why would he waste his time with people? if he replied to everyone he would go crazy

Aside from being prone to manic depression, he spends most of his time reading research (not actually researching) performance nutrition....the way he comes off..he's not well liked in the industry. His client is reads like a who's who of people who you wouldnt call elite athletes. Goes to show, all brains and not being able to teach is a very sad thing. How many people can actually read his body comp and get 10 major "take-home" points from it? Compare that Aragon's Girth Control, or even the mundane read of Advanced Human Metabolism. I'm reading Supple Leopard now, and that thing is full of applicable yet scientific things you can immediately apply and see results. Martin over at LG crams his worldview down your throat but you have to admire the way he does it, speaking from a fat guy to a rock hard guy that deadlifts 500+ for reps.

What is the merit to arguing hypothetical when you the author cannot even pull it together to pack on some muscle of your own? (I know there's folly in criticizing someone for being knowledgable but not having the physique to back it up, but there's something wrong here. Why are the guys championing science backed physique sports all not very big, or lean?) There's a reason his peers sort of put him out in the annex of "he's probably going overboard". While at the same time rightfully respecting the work he has invested in advancing the theoretical. Eric Helms (an actual researcher by vocation) recently made a video about the misapplication of science, and the recent brand of "myth busting" fitness guys on these forums. Stop myth busting. Bro science works for the novice much better than applied science misapplied. If they advance to a stage where they are willing to absorb knowledge, they will be like me and you...and seek it out. Nothing wrong with letting the natural course of things take shape for themselves.

Why are you going to hold his manic depression over him? Its a disease and it has nothing to do with his knowledge. His deadlift does not impress me to be honest.

Not everyone wants to build muscle, he could just like the science.


what myth busting am I doing? I know where you are coming from especially when everybody cries metabolic damage or some horse ****.

There hasnt been anything I have passed around that has could be detrimental to a novice at all, nor is there anything I could possibly think of. The problem is if we do not correct them and we know we are explaining the proper info, then the cycle of misinformation is spreading further

1200 may or may not be starvation mode, but seriously, WHY would you want to eat that little when you can eat more and still lose? My life is much more enjoyable with food.

Think this says it all for me. Losing is losing, be it half a pound a week or two pound a week. I know that I for one am just happy that the scale is going in the RIGHT direction. Why make yourself miserable to achieve this?

You presume everybody on 1200 calories per day is miserable...... many are not. I am not miserable on 1200 per day, but then again, I do not go around all day obsessing about food and continually thinking about it.

Now if I did that and was unable to have any due to being on 1200 calories per day - I could see why I might end up miserable in that case, but as I don't and just eat at my meal times., I can put my energies to better uses than thinking about my next meal.

THANK YOU.

I am SO SICK of people automatically asusming i must be miserable and constantly thinking about hunger and eating because i'm on 1200 a day.

I've said it before and i'll say it again; each to their own. I don't come on here and say to people who are on 1800 calories a day "Oh my god, you eat so much! You must be so sickly full all the time and bloated, how do you find the energy to do anything on such a huge amount of food?!" Because if i ate that much a day, that is how i would feel.

Everyone is entitiled to their opinion, but not everyone is entitled to judge.

oh and fyi I believe your body need nutrients more than it needs calories, so the calorie intakes can vary.

well, I gain weight if I eat anything above 1000kcal, so go and figure. All I can say is that it is highly personal based on the medical record, genes and who knows what else.

Go research glycogen.

It's when you end your diet and start eating normally at 1800 or so that it bites you in the bum. Your metabolism has gone to pot and you gain more than you lost.

Define "eating normally" ?

Is that figure - 1800 - just random one, or is there a reason why you chose that? Because believe it or not, that is not my own maintenance figure when I am my goal.

I don't know why people are still talking about starvation mode as if it were a real problem for overweight and obese people. 1200 calories, while not a lot, doesn't even qualify as a Very Low Calorie Diet. I've never been overweight, I use this site to keep track as i maintain my normal weight or try to lose a little weight. I constantly feel like throwing up my hands upon reading some of the advice on this site. If I did need help, I'd be obese in no time.

"Eating more to lose" weight sounds counterintuitive because it is.

1200* may be unsustainable for you personally, but it is NOT unhealthy. If you want to reach your goals more slowly, that's your choice, but stop knocking others who want to see results relatively quickly, and by quickly, I mean months or a year or two.

1200 is just a number. If you are very active, or can't function, obviously you should eat more. Some people, especially, short, petite women, need to eat less. But the idea of automatically eating more when you don't lose weight is nuts.

Here is what I have learned. Idk if starvation mode is the best way to put it, but in order for your body to be comfortable with letting go of fat you need to not raise your cortisol (stress hormone) levels. This happens if you stress over being hungry, stress over work, life in general. Your body does not recognize the difference between hungry stress, and work related (life stress) It just knows somethings wrong. This sends the body into a starving like mode because the cortisol level becomes elevated telling the body to hold onto the fat it all ready has stored (even if an overabundance already exisits), and to send the food you do eat directly to fat stores in this perceived time of stress (which the body sees as a famine like state) remember it does not know the difference in why you are stressed. Then you complicate this by not eating enough so you are hungry, and not getting enough phytonutrients to support healthy hormone levels, raising cortisol more, and causing your adrenal glands to over produce the hormone that slows your thyroid function which controls your pituitary gland which spits out HGH (Human Growth Hormone) which is important for your bodies ability to let go of stored fat. You have to think of your body as a synergistic organism (because we are). What you do today effects you like a pebble thrown into a still pool of water (ripple effect) The idea of avoiding "starvation mode" is to keep your body running without added stresses. Also, keeping your insulin levels (another important enzyme) from dramatically rising and falling is important for preventing undue stress on the body. This is the reason for eating several smaller meals a day so you get a gentle roll in your insulin level. Why give your body more of a reason to throw your very delicately balanced hormones out of whack. So eating enough calories, along with regularity gives your body the peace it needs to naturally balance hormones, and allow the already stored fat to be let go. I agree people throw the phrase around without fully understanding the inner workings of our body system, and how we effect it with every small choice. People who are obese are consuming many more calories than they think. Even those people who are not considered over weight may consume more calories than they think, but maybe less apt for their hormones to go out of whack. They tolerate the added stress well. Think about this... how many of you count the lick of peanut butter off the knife you know we all take? Did you know that is aprox. 80 kcals. Add it up and it is a lot. MFP is designed for you to hold yourself accountable for everything (EVERYTHING) that passes your lips so you see exactly how many calories you are consuming. It does not have to be an exact science. It just has to start with people being honest with themselves (honestly most people just are not aware of their calorie intake) For most of us 1800 calories is a huge deficit compared to our oblivious eating habits. Compound this along with not even close to enough knowledge of the bodies systems, and their symbiotic relationship. Keep in mind that you add in toxins found in foods (they are found in all foods, and some are naturally occurring {this is true in organics too}) your liver has to work harder to process these too causing them to be stored in fat because your body just does not have enough time to void it all, and process foods for use. This is why water intake is important. Water flushes the toxins, and released fats from your system. Pleaese also understand that I think everybody is different. If you can eat 1200 calories, and meet your nutritional needs (vegans often are super low in caloric intake, but high in nutrient intake {including protein from plant sources}) then do it.

Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!

:noway:

This sends the body into a starving like mode because the cortisol level becomes elevated telling the body to hold onto the fat it all ready has stored (even if an overabundance already exisits), and to send the food you do eat directly to fat stores in this perceived time of stress (which the body sees as a famine like state)

This is so far removed from factual science it isn't even funny. Oh wait; yes it is... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I am sorry I should have said if Cortisol level becomes elevated for an exteneded period of time (as does happen in modern life stressers)
http://www.adrenal-failure.com/what-is-cortisol.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
http://www.womentowomen.com/adrenalhealth/effectsofhighcortisollevels.aspx
http://pituitary.mgh.harvard.edu/cushings.htm

and many many more very valid studies! Keep in mind as with anything there is always other explanations, and counter arguments to be had. I know everyone is different. This is how I see it, and it works for me. I am only here to provide, an idea for anyone one to modify to fit what they need out of life to maintain health. My opinions, and interpretation of studies read, can and will be different from others who have read similar studies. I compare it to the constitution.... take away from it the intended knowledge, and use it for your benefit. For me this is valid I have a high stress life. Keep in mind I have read much more on complete body functions. i am just presenting you with knowledge on cortisol. Keep in mind the beginning thread is on the Starvation Myth, and I am giving an idea of where people are crossing Starving, and "starvation mode" which I have said I think is not a very good way of putting what happens in the body if you eat a low calorie, and/or nutrient deficient diet for an extended period of time.

Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!

this may be the worse analogy in the history of MFP...

Maybe, it was kind of a ramble as I was writing it. Lord knows I am not a writer, but I picture a small cartoon in my head of more lean muscle popping up and mom has to make more energy to feed it, and her sifting through the closet for more pots, and pans cleaning the closet out as she goes until she has nothing left in it to use, and she ends up taking my trips to the grocery store in order to keep feeding the lean muscles that keeps growing. It is my way of saying The more energy you expended the more energy you need, and When you lose weight, and eat well then you find less storage space, and more usable space. Less fat more lean muscle, but higher calorie intake to maintain the lean muscle. I am sure I will go back and edit it to flow better later. :flowerforyou:

This sends the body into a starving like mode because the cortisol level becomes elevated telling the body to hold onto the fat it all ready has stored (even if an overabundance already exisits), and to send the food you do eat directly to fat stores in this perceived time of stress (which the body sees as a famine like state)

This is so far removed from factual science it isn't even funny. Oh wait; yes it is... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I am sorry I should have said if Cortisol level becomes elevated for an exteneded period of time (as does happen in modern life stressers)
http://www.adrenal-failure.com/what-is-cortisol.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
http://www.womentowomen.com/adrenalhealth/effectsofhighcortisollevels.aspx
http://pituitary.mgh.harvard.edu/cushings.htm

and many many more very valid studies! Keep in mind as with anything there is always other explanations, and counter arguments to be had. I know everyone is different. This is how I see it, and it works for me. I am only here to provide, an idea for anyone one to modify to fit what they need out of life to maintain health. My opinions, and interpretation of studies read, can and will be different from others who have read similar studies. I compare it to the constitution.... take away from it the intended knowledge, and use it for your benefit. For me this is valid I have a high stress life. Keep in mind I have read much more on complete body functions. i am just presenting you with knowledge on cortisol. Keep in mind the beginning thread is on the Starvation Myth, and I am giving an idea of where people are crossing Starving, and "starvation mode" which I have said I think is not a very good way of putting what happens in the body if you eat a low calorie, and/or nutrient deficient diet for an extended period of time.

so is cortisol the kitchen where everything is stored?

Cortisol is one reason you store things in the closet (fat)

Starvation mode is real, but not to fat people.

I think this is somewhat correct, though people will argue about whether or not that is the right term. People are all the time applying the MN study and acting like what happened to the guys with 5% BF after months at 50% or less of TDEE is happening to people who are clinically obese people who try eating 1200 calories for a few days. It isn't.

Starvation mode is real, but not to fat people.

As you get leaner and leaner your body engages its hormonal system, leptin and ghrelin, to fight starvation. These hormones are strong and interact with other hormones and the brain/nervous system.

At first you will get constant hunger. Getting strong and stronger to the point where food ceases to be filling, even at the end of a huge meal, you're still hungry. Then snacking then loses its appeal, your interest shifts to really filling things only. You start dreaming and daydreaming about eating really filling things, fantasizing about thanksgiving and whatnot.

At the anti-starvation system progressively get stronger it starts to consume your thoughts, eating is always on you mind. It interacts with serotonin, making your depressed and moody. You become more and more manic, almost crazy (with access to food it requires the strongest of the strong willpower to stick to your diet). Also as it get stronger your metabolism slows and the body starts turning to sources of calories other than fat (your muscles). Eventually it interacts with your sex hormones, shutting down the reproductive system to conserve calories (women lose their periods, men lose the ability to perform, both completely lose interest in sex).

If you are fat, this hormonal system is irrelevant, you won't expecience it, if you think you are, its just in yoru head, hypersensitity to some of the effects. Once in the ab zone, it becomes very relevant. The factors that influence turning on your bodies' anti-starvation system include length of diet, magnitude of deficit, and body fat levels. It is primarily triggered through the glycogen system (carb refeeds keep it at bay). Once the system "turns on" so to speak, the effects get strong and stronger and stronger.

Anyone that has spent time cutting in the ab zone has likely experienced some of the effects of the anti-starvation system unless following a cyclical dieting procol with frequent carb heavy refeeds.

Starvation mode is real. But not for most cases where it is applied.

remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.

Starvation is a myth and everyone is different. The human body needs approximately 10 to 11 calories per pound of weight to maintain that weight. Example: A 150 pound female needs 1650 calories a day to MAINTAIN her weight (150 lbs. X 11 calories). To lose 1 pound, the female would need a 3,500 calorie deficit. So . . .

150 lbs, times 11 calories (1650) times 7 days = 11,550 calories a week to maintain.

11,550 calories minus 3,500 (calories in one pound) = 8,050 calories a week to lose one pound.

8,050 calories divided by 7 days a week = 1,150 calories a day to lose one pound a week.

This formula works for anyone, just substitute your weight and recalculate.