THE BIG STARVATION MODE MYTH.

Starvation mode is real, but not to fat people.

I think this is somewhat correct, though people will argue about whether or not that is the right term. People are all the time applying the MN study and acting like what happened to the guys with 5% BF after months at 50% or less of TDEE is happening to people who are clinically obese people who try eating 1200 calories for a few days. It isn't.

remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.

This sends the body into a starving like mode because the cortisol level becomes elevated telling the body to hold onto the fat it all ready has stored (even if an overabundance already exisits), and to send the food you do eat directly to fat stores in this perceived time of stress (which the body sees as a famine like state)

This is so far removed from factual science it isn't even funny. Oh wait; yes it is... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I am sorry I should have said if Cortisol level becomes elevated for an exteneded period of time (as does happen in modern life stressers)
http://www.adrenal-failure.com/what-is-cortisol.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol
http://www.womentowomen.com/adrenalhealth/effectsofhighcortisollevels.aspx
http://pituitary.mgh.harvard.edu/cushings.htm

and many many more very valid studies! Keep in mind as with anything there is always other explanations, and counter arguments to be had. I know everyone is different. This is how I see it, and it works for me. I am only here to provide, an idea for anyone one to modify to fit what they need out of life to maintain health. My opinions, and interpretation of studies read, can and will be different from others who have read similar studies. I compare it to the constitution.... take away from it the intended knowledge, and use it for your benefit. For me this is valid I have a high stress life. Keep in mind I have read much more on complete body functions. i am just presenting you with knowledge on cortisol. Keep in mind the beginning thread is on the Starvation Myth, and I am giving an idea of where people are crossing Starving, and "starvation mode" which I have said I think is not a very good way of putting what happens in the body if you eat a low calorie, and/or nutrient deficient diet for an extended period of time.

so is cortisol the kitchen where everything is stored?

Cortisol is one reason you store things in the closet (fat)

oh, so it is kind of like a meat freezer?

remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.

Preaching to the choir on that. Well done refeeds are extremely effective at keeping the leptin-ghrelin system at bay. They are really, really needed so that cutting while lean for more than a couple weeks isn't absolute torture and a battle of willpower. But even a solid refeeding plan can be overwhelmed, necessitating diet breaks.

its weird about how that works.
it doesn't make any ****ing sense. I cant wait until they can explain it in scientific terms, well with hard evidence

remember that leptin is still very misunderstood, they are trying to understand the full function of it. take it with a grain of salt but there is more evidence about refeeds being very effective.

Preaching to the choir on that. Well done refeeds are extremely effective at keeping the leptin-ghrelin system at bay. They are really, really needed so that cutting while lean for more than a couple weeks isn't absolute torture and a battle of willpower. But even a solid refeeding plan can be overwhelmed, necessitating diet breaks.

its weird about how that works.
it doesn't make any ****ing sense. I cant wait until they can explain it in scientific terms, well with hard evidence

Leptin is secreted by fat, its likely that fat needs to be burning for high concentrations to be released, and it seems that the secretion of it gets stronger and stronger over time. Refeeds are a shock quanitiy of carbs that completely knocks your body out of fat burning and into heavy fat storage (hence eating any fat whatsover during a refeed is very bad). Enough to "reset" the quantity of leptin released, so that to the body you just started dieting, you haven't been at it for a long time.

'starvation mode' preventing you from losing fat = myth

'starvation mode' subtracting large amounts of muscle mass most people would perfer to have = truth

I'm sure it depends on how much you have to lose and how long you've been dieting. I want to lose 8 lbs, maybe 10. Eating at 1400-1500 calories was getting me nowhere. I was stuck at 138 lbs. For months. Even though I work out seven days a week. Even though some of my workouts are pretty gnarly. Upped to 1700-1800/day and dropped four lbs within a few weeks. Was I starving and that's why I didn't lose weight? No, of course not. Was there some weird hormonal thing going on with my body not letting me lose those last couple pounds? Maybe. Possibly. It doesn't sound that crazy to me.

I'm sure super low calorie diets have their place...for a short period of time. I firmly believe our bodies eventually adjust. So yes, I'd like to be 125 lb with 20% body fat (I'm 134 and 25% BF right now). But I also want to maintain it. Supposedly with my activity level, that's 2050 calories/day. Could I get there by only eating 1200? Maybe, maybe not. I'd rather try at 1700-1800 and be able to maintain at 2000. And hopefully maintain my muscle tone at the same time. :-)

BTW, I have had to lose 30 lbs a couple times in my life. Once after my son was born and the second time after I quit working at a horse ranch and packed on some weight. But I'm the same weight I was in high school and I've pretty much maintained that for the last ten years. I couldn't have done that if I had to eat 1200 calories a day to stay at this weight. I only mention this because lots of people lose lots of weight and then gain it right back. It has to be something you can maintain/manage long term.

But if it works for you, go for it. It wasn't working for me.

dammit. people on this forum have an honest obsession with Lyle McDonald. I don't get it. He is theoretically right on everything, and has the science to back it up.

why do ppl like him so much? omg

I don't care for him at all. He's right about some things and sooooo wrong about others that it's gotten to the point where he's almost as bad as Martin Leangains. At least Martin replied to me when I challenged him, he might have been drunk though, it was way too easy to poke holes.

Back to the topic.
None of us here have experienced starvation, actual starvation.

Have any of you read the book 'Hunger' by Sharman Apt Russell, or anything close to it? If so message me, please. Sorry, slightly off topic there.

why would he waste his time with people? if he replied to everyone he would go crazy

Aside from being prone to manic depression, he spends most of his time reading research (not actually researching) performance nutrition....the way he comes off..he's not well liked in the industry. His client is reads like a who's who of people who you wouldnt call elite athletes. Goes to show, all brains and not being able to teach is a very sad thing. How many people can actually read his body comp and get 10 major "take-home" points from it? Compare that Aragon's Girth Control, or even the mundane read of Advanced Human Metabolism. I'm reading Supple Leopard now, and that thing is full of applicable yet scientific things you can immediately apply and see results. Martin over at LG crams his worldview down your throat but you have to admire the way he does it, speaking from a fat guy to a rock hard guy that deadlifts 500+ for reps.

What is the merit to arguing hypothetical when you the author cannot even pull it together to pack on some muscle of your own? (I know there's folly in criticizing someone for being knowledgable but not having the physique to back it up, but there's something wrong here. Why are the guys championing science backed physique sports all not very big, or lean?) There's a reason his peers sort of put him out in the annex of "he's probably going overboard". While at the same time rightfully respecting the work he has invested in advancing the theoretical. Eric Helms (an actual researcher by vocation) recently made a video about the misapplication of science, and the recent brand of "myth busting" fitness guys on these forums. Stop myth busting. Bro science works for the novice much better than applied science misapplied. If they advance to a stage where they are willing to absorb knowledge, they will be like me and you...and seek it out. Nothing wrong with letting the natural course of things take shape for themselves.

Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!

So this was a total ramble to try to say how I picture the studies I have read, and how I perceive the body using fat, and energy, and how lean muscle is built. It was really bad...... I am not a writer by any means. Please excuse the poorly written analogy and just understand the bodies exposure to hormone shifts caused by poor diet choices. (i.e. super low calorie diets for extended periods of time, and/ or nutrient lacking foods)

so starvation mode is like an old set of pans that do not work any more????

This is what I was trying to say in a very long winded terrible ramble is.... Fat is a storage facility in the body where the liver our bodies filter can store an overabundance of energy to be processed later if needed. Toxins can also be stored in fat for the body to deal with later if the liver is too busy extracting the important nutrients our bodies need. Muscle, is in a constant state of movement, and therefore needs energy to maintain it. If we are obese, and we cut our caloric intake than our bodies do start to use the stored energy in our fat. If we build more lean muscle through exercise we will need more energy to maintain the new larger muscle mass, and than our bodies will use more of that stored energy in our fat causing it to shrinks. Right? However, if we stop feeding ourselves, or cut calories too low than our bodies say, "Wait a minute.....something is wrong we have not had...Fat,... or Carbohydrates,.. or Protein in a few days. Whats wrong? OMG maybe we need to stop supplying the muscle so much energy, and hold a little back in our fat stores. Let the muscle starve a little for the bodies greater good." This is when Cortisol kicks in. Now, understand Cortisol is important in the body. It is part of the "Fight or Flight" response in our body allowing us to prepare for danger or cope with stress. Like needing to run away from something that wants to eat us, or there is not enough food for us to keep functioning at this level of energy use. Cortisol is released by our Adrenal Gland, and if levels become too high from constant stress, or from not eating enough of the right foods.( where our bodies think it might be awhile before we get fat again, or protein again, or carbohydrates again) The increased Cortisol signals the Thyroid which is responsible for telling the cells how quickly to "burn" energy. The Thyroid slows down it's important hormone production by sending a signal to the Hypothalamus to slow production of HGH in the Pituitary gland, so the energy "burn" slows down by the Thyroid which slows down production of important hormones needed to tell the cells "burn" more energy. This then slows down fat storage be burned for energy, and to hold on to it for the future in case it needs it later, and so the body can then lower the Cortisol levels back to normal. Then when the body perceives cortisol levels are lower, and we are no longer in "Fight or Flight", and hey look we are getting the fat, and/ or protein, and/or carbohydrates we needed again. The Hypothalamus says OK lets pick up energy use again to maintain our muscle, and HGH goes back up, Thyroid function goes back up, we "burn" more energy again. Insulin is part of this function too, If we avoid peaks, and valleys by eating consistently enough that our bodies get a gentle roll in our bloodsugar levels instead of spikes, and than dramatic drops our bodies see this as an abundant food supply is at hand we can afford to let go of some of the stored energy to help the energy "burn" in our cells so we can grow lean muscle which uses more energy, and we have plenty of good nutrient rich food to do that. My idea of what "starvation mode" means , nothing like real starvation as in, dying because there is not enough to even maintain normal life function. It is "starving" your cells of a well balanced nutrient rich diet, through poor caloric intake for you own person. This means you need to find the right calorie intake for you! The way I think we do this is by trail and error. You have to have variety (to ensure you are getting all the nutrients needed), consistency (so your hormones such as Cortisol stay balance to optimize energy "burn", and just enough calories (to keep you satisfied, or not hungry {so you don't binge and throw off your bloodsugar level}). Since some of us are heavily muscled, and some are not we require a specifically tailored amount of calories to maintain the balance. The more lean muscle, the more calories you may need to maintain that lean muscle. The less lean muscle you have means, you need less calories in your daily diet. Exercise is important to build the lean muscle needed to burn more energy. The calorie intake is important to maintain hormone balance to let go of fat stored. Both components are important to losing weight, but understand they are different components that have to work together to achieve your ultimate goal of a slim, well muscled, lean you. So still long winded, but way more technical description of how I understand what I have learned than any analogy I could try to spit out. I promise I will never try to story tell again. I will stick to the facts.

Here is another thing to keep in mind Fat just sits there. You do not burn any energy to have an over abundance of fat. Fat is a storage shelf for the body. Think of it as the closet you jam things in you might need down the road (energy), or things you don't know how to get rid of (toxins). It just sits there closed, and you never look into it until you need something. Lean muscle is used constantly (so it needs energy constantly to maintain). It is like the kitchen in a house full of people, there is always someone cooking in it. The more lean muscle you have the more fuel it needs (the more you have to cook). If you are overweight, and you stop taking in more junk than you really need (to shove in the closet), and start building more lean muscle(cooking in your own kitchen kitchen) your eventually going to need that pan your mom bought you in that storage closet. Guess what that pan, is at the bottom of the closet so you have to clean it out to get to it, and then you find the hiking boots(exercise) you have been looking for to build even more lean muscle(means more energy is needed). So now you have to cook more food in the kitchen, but you don't have anymore pans in the closet, because you have cleaned out the junk. Now you have no choice but to go buy another set, and keep cooking more food, more often to keep up. Nothing is stored, and nothing is wasted. This is how our bodies should be. Hormones are the lubricant to keep the body functions moving, and keep us from becoming content with the closet full of junk we might need down the road, if life changes. It works for me to see it this way, but maybe not for you. I hope this info helps someone else that the only reason I am writing novels here...lol If someone has a better way to put it, or something else to add to the collective wealth of knowledge please enlighten!

So this was a total ramble to try to say how I picture the studies I have read, and how I perceive the body using fat, and energy, and how lean muscle is built. It was really bad...... I am not a writer by any means. Please excuse the poorly written analogy and just understand the bodies exposure to hormone shifts caused by poor diet choices. (i.e. super low calorie diets for extended periods of time, and/ or nutrient lacking foods)

so starvation mode is like an old set of pans that do not work any more????

This is what I was trying to say in a very long winded terrible ramble is.... Fat is a storage facility in the body where the liver our bodies filter can store an overabundance of energy to be processed later if needed. Toxins can also be stored in fat for the body to deal with later if the liver is too busy extracting the important nutrients our bodies need. Muscle, is in a constant state of movement, and therefore needs energy to maintain it. If we are obese, and we cut our caloric intake than our bodies do start to use the stored energy in our fat. If we build more lean muscle through exercise we will need more energy to maintain the new larger muscle mass, and than our bodies will use more of that stored energy in our fat causing it to shrinks. Right? However, if we stop feeding ourselves, or cut calories too low than our bodies say, "Wait a minute.....something is wrong we have not had...Fat,... or Carbohydrates,.. or Protein in a few days. Whats wrong? OMG maybe we need to stop supplying the muscle so much energy, and hold a little back in our fat stores. Let the muscle starve a little for the bodies greater good." This is when Cortisol kicks in. Now, understand Cortisol is important in the body. It is part of the "Fight or Flight" response in our body allowing us to prepare for danger or cope with stress. Like needing to run away from something that wants to eat us, or there is not enough food for us to keep functioning at this level of energy use. Cortisol is released by our Adrenal Gland, and if levels become too high from constant stress, or from not eating enough of the right foods.( where our bodies think it might be awhile before we get fat again, or protein again, or carbohydrates again) The increased Cortisol signals the Thyroid which is responsible for telling the cells how quickly to "burn" energy. The Thyroid slows down it's important hormone production by sending a signal to the Hypothalamus to slow production of HGH in the Pituitary gland, so the energy "burn" slows down by the Thyroid which slows down production of important hormones needed to tell the cells "burn" more energy. This then slows down fat storage be burned for energy, and to hold on to it for the future in case it needs it later, and so the body can then lower the Cortisol levels back to normal. Then when the body perceives cortisol levels are lower, and we are no longer in "Fight or Flight", and hey look we are getting the fat, and/ or protein, and/or carbohydrates we needed again. The Hypothalamus says OK lets pick up energy use again to maintain our muscle, and HGH goes back up, Thyroid function goes back up, we "burn" more energy again. Insulin is part of this function too, If we avoid peaks, and valleys by eating consistently enough that our bodies get a gentle roll in our bloodsugar levels instead of spikes, and than dramatic drops our bodies see this as an abundant food supply is at hand we can afford to let go of some of the stored energy to help the energy "burn" in our cells so we can grow lean muscle which uses more energy, and we have plenty of good nutrient rich food to do that. My idea of what "starvation mode" means , nothing like real starvation as in, dying because there is not enough to even maintain normal life function. It is "starving" your cells of a well balanced nutrient rich diet, through poor caloric intake for you own person. This means you need to find the right calorie intake for you! The way I think we do this is by trail and error. You have to have variety (to ensure you are getting all the nutrients needed), consistency (so your hormones such as Cortisol stay balance to optimize energy "burn", and just enough calories (to keep you satisfied, or not hungry {so you don't binge and throw off your bloodsugar level}). Since some of us are heavily muscled, and some are not we require a specifically tailored amount of calories to maintain the balance. The more lean muscle, the more calories you may need to maintain that lean muscle. The less lean muscle you have means, you need less calories in your daily diet. Exercise is important to build the lean muscle needed to burn more energy. The calorie intake is important to maintain hormone balance to let go of fat stored. Both components are important to losing weight, but understand they are different components that have to work together to achieve your ultimate goal of a slim, well muscled, lean you. So still long winded, but way more technical description of how I understand what I have learned than any analogy I could try to spit out. I promise I will never try to story tell again. I will stick to the facts.

STAAAAHP

Does your brain hurt? Mine does too!