Returning to keto/paleo: veg. not working

I think I have to return to flat-out text book classic keto or paleo at the minimum. Vegetarian keto, even lacto-ovo-pesco just ain't a-gonna cut it. I tried lacto-ovo-pesco keto, I tried lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 p/c/f. Lacto-ovo-pesco doesn't give enough fat and gives too much carbs. With lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 I can't get enough protein, and I get too much carb! I felt "morally and ethically" good about veg., but I've put on some weight and I feel physically crappy. So I think in the interest of health I need to return to being carnivorous and lipivorous (I think I just made up that word :bigsmile: ). I still like my yogurt and cottage cheese, but if I have to shun them because of their carbs, I will. I've switched to plain unsweetened almond milk which is DA BOMB! I'll track more diligently in MFP to see if the dairy has too much sugar and carb.

I think I have to return to flat-out text book classic keto or paleo at the minimum. Vegetarian keto, even lacto-ovo-pesco just ain't a-gonna cut it. I tried lacto-ovo-pesco keto, I tried lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 p/c/f. Lacto-ovo-pesco doesn't give enough fat and gives too much carbs. With lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 I can't get enough protein, and I get too much carb! I felt "morally and ethically" good about veg., but I've put on some weight and I feel physically crappy. So I think in the interest of health I need to return to being carnivorous and lipivorous (I think I just made up that word :bigsmile: ). I still like my yogurt and cottage cheese, but if I have to shun them because of their carbs, I will. I've switched to plain unsweetened almond milk which is DA BOMB! I'll track more diligently in MFP to see if the dairy has too much sugar and carb.

Any system that stipulates macronutrient breakdown by percentages or ratios is flawed...

Wow.

So, you're IIFYM, right?

WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:

How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.

My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:

Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.

Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.

I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.

WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:

How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.

My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:

Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.

Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.

I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.

Lesser of two evils? Human beings have canine teeth evolved for eating meat...why shouldn't we?

Because we simply don't need to. And our teeth are FAR from the teeth of other meat eating species. We don't have the claws and razor sharp teeth to rip into a raw animal's flanks, and our digestive system is far too long to be efficient at digesting meat as well. The "canine" argument is so deeply flawed as two pairs of teeth hardly indicates that we evolved to be carnivorous. Seriously, four teeth in our whole mouth prove that we are like the lions of the savannah? Sure we have the capability to eat meat, but that doesn't mean that our diet 25,000 years ago was meat centric. If anything, we only started to eat meat on any regular basis when we developed tools and weapons, and even then it wasn't without difficulty as our bodies don't digest un-cooked meat well at all. It was the advent of modern man with modern tools and modern cooking methods that allowed us to truly start eating meat, but all of that occurred far after or physical form evolved into what it is today.

And my argument previously had nothing to do with evolution at all. It was on the ethics of our food choices. The lesser of two evils was a reference to the fact that we don't need meat to survive, so why cause the deaths of more living things than necessary? It isn't speciesism, its making the smallest footprint. It has everything to do with morality and ethics, as well as environmental impact. We are a higher, more evolved species than any other on the planet. With that comes the responsibility to care for it and make higher, more evolved choices than our primal cousins. We aren't base, soul-less animals, but we are individuals who have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. It is what separates us. If you don't see any separation, then go live your primal life in the jungle and lets see how those canines get you through.

I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.

Now for me:

---

BRILLIANT. ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. I AM GOING TO QUOTE YOU!!! Thanks for the help with 'my' statement."

I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a HFLC diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of HighFatLowCarb without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.

Oh, and the actual numbers -- in FOUR months: lost 25 lbs, glucose from 6.2 to 6.0, Cholesterol from 202 to 162.
for a 58-yr-old diabetic, hypothyroid old lady, pretty good results there! and I FEEL better
than I have since I was 38!

WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:

How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.

My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:

Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.

Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.

I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.

Lesser of two evils? Human beings have canine teeth evolved for eating meat...why shouldn't we?

Because we simply don't need to. And our teeth are FAR from the teeth of other meat eating species. We don't have the claws and razor sharp teeth to rip into a raw animal's flanks, and our digestive system is far too long to be efficient at digesting meat as well. The "canine" argument is so deeply flawed as two pairs of teeth hardly indicates that we evolved to be carnivorous. Seriously, four teeth in our whole mouth prove that we are like the lions of the savannah? Sure we have the capability to eat meat, but that doesn't mean that our diet 25,000 years ago was meat centric. If anything, we only started to eat meat on any regular basis when we developed tools and weapons, and even then it wasn't without difficulty as our bodies don't digest un-cooked meat well at all. It was the advent of modern man with modern tools and modern cooking methods that allowed us to truly start eating meat, but all of that occurred far after or physical form evolved into what it is today.

And my argument previously had nothing to do with evolution at all. It was on the ethics of our food choices. The lesser of two evils was a reference to the fact that we don't need meat to survive, so why cause the deaths of more living things than necessary? It isn't speciesism, its making the smallest footprint. It has everything to do with morality and ethics, as well as environmental impact. We are a higher, more evolved species than any other on the planet. With that comes the responsibility to care for it and make higher, more evolved choices than our primal cousins. We aren't base, soul-less animals, but we are individuals who have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. It is what separates us. If you don't see any separation, then go live your primal life in the jungle and lets see how those canines get you through.

Once you bring ethics into eating meat, you've lost me. I eat meat and I don't have the slightest feeling that it's immoral. I don't lose any sleep at night. The beauty of it is that we are both free to do what you want, so remember, for every animal you don't eat, I'll eat 3

The last comment was out of line. Grow up and take some accountability as part of the dominant species on the planet. To claim we have no responsibility to honor life is to declare that we are no more evolved than the basest of wild animals, which I do not believe.

When someone finds the killing of animals appalling, the last appropriate thing to do is to wave killing "extra" animals because I won't eat any. That was what was out of line. Eat how you will, but please don't say that since I don't eat animals you will now kill extra to balance the equation. It is a morally reprehensible statement to me and to say it to my face knowing how I feel/stand is incredibly insulting.

And I wasn't saying that the keto HFLC diet is evil or wrong. I feel that the LFHC vegan diet is healthier, but I wan't putting down any other lifestyle choice. I was just defending the diet and how no one should shoot it down based on an incomplete education on its merits. I've done the HFLC, paleo, etc before and I will admit that I felt amazing on it. Then I switch to this and I feel even better. I'm not cutting down the diet based on its health benefits, as I believe that it is far better than the SAD/lifestyle.

And rgugs13, I was saying it was inappropriate (as stated above) to tell me because I eat less animals you will eat more. Saying you eat animals is one thing, but thats like saying because you're christian I'm going to go blow up a cathedral. Or rape a child. Or something like that. NOT ok, and incredibly insulting on a deeply personal level. THAT was what is out of line with his last statement. Eat animals, go ahead, just don't try to insult my deep set beliefs on the matter by stating something similar to what that gentleman said.