Returning to keto/paleo: veg. not working
Thorbjornn
Posts: 329 Member
I think I have to return to flat-out text book classic keto or paleo at the minimum. Vegetarian keto, even lacto-ovo-pesco just ain't a-gonna cut it. I tried lacto-ovo-pesco keto, I tried lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 p/c/f. Lacto-ovo-pesco doesn't give enough fat and gives too much carbs. With lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 I can't get enough protein, and I get too much carb! I felt "morally and ethically" good about veg., but I've put on some weight and I feel physically crappy. So I think in the interest of health I need to return to being carnivorous and lipivorous (I think I just made up that word :bigsmile: ). I still like my yogurt and cottage cheese, but if I have to shun them because of their carbs, I will. I've switched to plain unsweetened almond milk which is DA BOMB! I'll track more diligently in MFP to see if the dairy has too much sugar and carb.
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Food and Nutrition
Topic: Returning to keto/paleo: veg. not working
BY: Jainarayan Joined Mar 2013 POSTED June 14, 2013 6:29 am
SAVE TO FOLLOW FOR INFO0 -
You should check out the keto group here if you haven't already.
Edit: I recognize you now. Sorry to hear the veg thing didn't work out. :-/0 -
It all comes down to a calorie deficit...0
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WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.0 -
WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
He was avoiding meat for religious reasons.
I do ketogenic as well. I aim for Primal but it doesn't always happen.0 -
I think I have to return to flat-out text book classic keto or paleo at the minimum. Vegetarian keto, even lacto-ovo-pesco just ain't a-gonna cut it. I tried lacto-ovo-pesco keto, I tried lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 p/c/f. Lacto-ovo-pesco doesn't give enough fat and gives too much carbs. With lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 I can't get enough protein, and I get too much carb! I felt "morally and ethically" good about veg., but I've put on some weight and I feel physically crappy. So I think in the interest of health I need to return to being carnivorous and lipivorous (I think I just made up that word :bigsmile: ). I still like my yogurt and cottage cheese, but if I have to shun them because of their carbs, I will. I've switched to plain unsweetened almond milk which is DA BOMB! I'll track more diligently in MFP to see if the dairy has too much sugar and carb.
Any system that stipulates macronutrient breakdown by percentages or ratios is flawed...0 -
I think I have to return to flat-out text book classic keto or paleo at the minimum. Vegetarian keto, even lacto-ovo-pesco just ain't a-gonna cut it. I tried lacto-ovo-pesco keto, I tried lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 p/c/f. Lacto-ovo-pesco doesn't give enough fat and gives too much carbs. With lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 I can't get enough protein, and I get too much carb! I felt "morally and ethically" good about veg., but I've put on some weight and I feel physically crappy. So I think in the interest of health I need to return to being carnivorous and lipivorous (I think I just made up that word :bigsmile: ). I still like my yogurt and cottage cheese, but if I have to shun them because of their carbs, I will. I've switched to plain unsweetened almond milk which is DA BOMB! I'll track more diligently in MFP to see if the dairy has too much sugar and carb.
Any system that stipulates macronutrient breakdown by percentages or ratios is flawed...
Wow.
So, you're IIFYM, right?0 -
I think I have to return to flat-out text book classic keto or paleo at the minimum. Vegetarian keto, even lacto-ovo-pesco just ain't a-gonna cut it. I tried lacto-ovo-pesco keto, I tried lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 p/c/f. Lacto-ovo-pesco doesn't give enough fat and gives too much carbs. With lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 I can't get enough protein, and I get too much carb! I felt "morally and ethically" good about veg., but I've put on some weight and I feel physically crappy. So I think in the interest of health I need to return to being carnivorous and lipivorous (I think I just made up that word :bigsmile: ). I still like my yogurt and cottage cheese, but if I have to shun them because of their carbs, I will. I've switched to plain unsweetened almond milk which is DA BOMB! I'll track more diligently in MFP to see if the dairy has too much sugar and carb.
Any system that stipulates macronutrient breakdown by percentages or ratios is flawed...
Wow.
So, you're IIFYM, right?
My ticker kind of gives it away. If you are so taken aback by my statement, please explain to me how macronutrient percentages are better than bodyweight macro calculations, or Lean Body Mass macro calculations...0 -
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WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.
Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
Lesser of two evils? Human beings have canine teeth evolved for eating meat...why shouldn't we?0 -
WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.
Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
Lesser of two evils? Human beings have canine teeth evolved for eating meat...why shouldn't we?
Because we simply don't need to. And our teeth are FAR from the teeth of other meat eating species. We don't have the claws and razor sharp teeth to rip into a raw animal's flanks, and our digestive system is far too long to be efficient at digesting meat as well. The "canine" argument is so deeply flawed as two pairs of teeth hardly indicates that we evolved to be carnivorous. Seriously, four teeth in our whole mouth prove that we are like the lions of the savannah? Sure we have the capability to eat meat, but that doesn't mean that our diet 25,000 years ago was meat centric. If anything, we only started to eat meat on any regular basis when we developed tools and weapons, and even then it wasn't without difficulty as our bodies don't digest un-cooked meat well at all. It was the advent of modern man with modern tools and modern cooking methods that allowed us to truly start eating meat, but all of that occurred far after or physical form evolved into what it is today.
And my argument previously had nothing to do with evolution at all. It was on the ethics of our food choices. The lesser of two evils was a reference to the fact that we don't need meat to survive, so why cause the deaths of more living things than necessary? It isn't speciesism, its making the smallest footprint. It has everything to do with morality and ethics, as well as environmental impact. We are a higher, more evolved species than any other on the planet. With that comes the responsibility to care for it and make higher, more evolved choices than our primal cousins. We aren't base, soul-less animals, but we are individuals who have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. It is what separates us. If you don't see any separation, then go live your primal life in the jungle and lets see how those canines get you through.0 -
WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.
Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
Lesser of two evils? Human beings have canine teeth evolved for eating meat...why shouldn't we?
Because we simply don't need to. And our teeth are FAR from the teeth of other meat eating species. We don't have the claws and razor sharp teeth to rip into a raw animal's flanks, and our digestive system is far too long to be efficient at digesting meat as well. The "canine" argument is so deeply flawed as two pairs of teeth hardly indicates that we evolved to be carnivorous. Seriously, four teeth in our whole mouth prove that we are like the lions of the savannah? Sure we have the capability to eat meat, but that doesn't mean that our diet 25,000 years ago was meat centric. If anything, we only started to eat meat on any regular basis when we developed tools and weapons, and even then it wasn't without difficulty as our bodies don't digest un-cooked meat well at all. It was the advent of modern man with modern tools and modern cooking methods that allowed us to truly start eating meat, but all of that occurred far after or physical form evolved into what it is today.
And my argument previously had nothing to do with evolution at all. It was on the ethics of our food choices. The lesser of two evils was a reference to the fact that we don't need meat to survive, so why cause the deaths of more living things than necessary? It isn't speciesism, its making the smallest footprint. It has everything to do with morality and ethics, as well as environmental impact. We are a higher, more evolved species than any other on the planet. With that comes the responsibility to care for it and make higher, more evolved choices than our primal cousins. We aren't base, soul-less animals, but we are individuals who have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. It is what separates us. If you don't see any separation, then go live your primal life in the jungle and lets see how those canines get you through.
Once you bring ethics into eating meat, you've lost me. I eat meat and I don't have the slightest feeling that it's immoral. I don't lose any sleep at night. The beauty of it is that we are both free to do what you want, so remember, for every animal you don't eat, I'll eat 3
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WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.
Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
Lesser of two evils? Human beings have canine teeth evolved for eating meat...why shouldn't we?
Because we simply don't need to. And our teeth are FAR from the teeth of other meat eating species. We don't have the claws and razor sharp teeth to rip into a raw animal's flanks, and our digestive system is far too long to be efficient at digesting meat as well. The "canine" argument is so deeply flawed as two pairs of teeth hardly indicates that we evolved to be carnivorous. Seriously, four teeth in our whole mouth prove that we are like the lions of the savannah? Sure we have the capability to eat meat, but that doesn't mean that our diet 25,000 years ago was meat centric. If anything, we only started to eat meat on any regular basis when we developed tools and weapons, and even then it wasn't without difficulty as our bodies don't digest un-cooked meat well at all. It was the advent of modern man with modern tools and modern cooking methods that allowed us to truly start eating meat, but all of that occurred far after or physical form evolved into what it is today.
And my argument previously had nothing to do with evolution at all. It was on the ethics of our food choices. The lesser of two evils was a reference to the fact that we don't need meat to survive, so why cause the deaths of more living things than necessary? It isn't speciesism, its making the smallest footprint. It has everything to do with morality and ethics, as well as environmental impact. We are a higher, more evolved species than any other on the planet. With that comes the responsibility to care for it and make higher, more evolved choices than our primal cousins. We aren't base, soul-less animals, but we are individuals who have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. It is what separates us. If you don't see any separation, then go live your primal life in the jungle and lets see how those canines get you through.
Once you bring ethics into eating meat, you've lost me. I eat meat and I don't have the slightest feeling that it's immoral. I don't lose any sleep at night. The beauty of it is that we are both free to do what you want, so remember, for every animal you don't eat, I'll eat 3
The last comment was out of line. Grow up and take some accountability as part of the dominant species on the planet. To claim we have no responsibility to honor life is to declare that we are no more evolved than the basest of wild animals, which I do not believe.0 -
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
Now for me:
BRILLIANT. ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. I AM GOING TO QUOTE YOU!!! Thanks for the help with 'my' statement."
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a HFLC diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of HighFatLowCarb without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
Oh, and the actual numbers -- in FOUR months: lost 25 lbs, glucose from 6.2 to 6.0, Cholesterol from 202 to 162.
for a 58-yr-old diabetic, hypothyroid old lady, pretty good results there! and I FEEL better
than I have since I was 38!0 -
QUOTE
QUOTE
The last comment was out of line. Grow up and take some accountability as part of the dominant species on the planet. To claim we have no responsibility to honor life is to declare that we are no more evolved than the basest of wild animals, which I do not believe.
QUOTE
now for me: THIS last comment is out of line. Grow up and take some accountability as part of the DOMINANT SPECIES on the planet -- is my right to choose what I eat. I am not EVOLVED from any creature or cell or organism.
Enjoy your plants. I like them too....as a side salad to my steak or chicken or fish etc etc etc. I'll donate the grains to you. Good Luck with your CHOICE of eating. It's yours and I have no issue with it.0 -
WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.
Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
Lesser of two evils? Human beings have canine teeth evolved for eating meat...why shouldn't we?
Because we simply don't need to. And our teeth are FAR from the teeth of other meat eating species. We don't have the claws and razor sharp teeth to rip into a raw animal's flanks, and our digestive system is far too long to be efficient at digesting meat as well. The "canine" argument is so deeply flawed as two pairs of teeth hardly indicates that we evolved to be carnivorous. Seriously, four teeth in our whole mouth prove that we are like the lions of the savannah? Sure we have the capability to eat meat, but that doesn't mean that our diet 25,000 years ago was meat centric. If anything, we only started to eat meat on any regular basis when we developed tools and weapons, and even then it wasn't without difficulty as our bodies don't digest un-cooked meat well at all. It was the advent of modern man with modern tools and modern cooking methods that allowed us to truly start eating meat, but all of that occurred far after or physical form evolved into what it is today.
And my argument previously had nothing to do with evolution at all. It was on the ethics of our food choices. The lesser of two evils was a reference to the fact that we don't need meat to survive, so why cause the deaths of more living things than necessary? It isn't speciesism, its making the smallest footprint. It has everything to do with morality and ethics, as well as environmental impact. We are a higher, more evolved species than any other on the planet. With that comes the responsibility to care for it and make higher, more evolved choices than our primal cousins. We aren't base, soul-less animals, but we are individuals who have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. It is what separates us. If you don't see any separation, then go live your primal life in the jungle and lets see how those canines get you through.
Once you bring ethics into eating meat, you've lost me. I eat meat and I don't have the slightest feeling that it's immoral. I don't lose any sleep at night. The beauty of it is that we are both free to do what you want, so remember, for every animal you don't eat, I'll eat 3
The last comment was out of line. Grow up and take some accountability as part of the dominant species on the planet. To claim we have no responsibility to honor life is to declare that we are no more evolved than the basest of wild animals, which I do not believe.
It's only 'out of line' to YOU because you can't seem to understand that not everyone has the same values as yourself. People actually eat meat and don't feel bad about it. Sorry.0 -
Instead of arguing who is the more righteous person, how about everybody just accepts that everybody else has the right to have different beliefs, whether they are about food, religion, or anything else.
I eat meat. I like the taste. Yes, I know it was once a fuzzy animal, I used to hunt before I started working on fishing boats. Do the comments that imply that I'm an amoralistic, soulless devil for eating a defenseless cow piss me off? Yes, but it really doesn't affect me personally in any way, and does more to alienate me to your cause than anything else.
I have vegan and vegetarian friends. We can go out to eat together and not get into a fight because one of us ordered a steak and another ordered a salad. I actually eat more vegetarian and vegan foods because they have introduced me to good recipes. It is called respect. The world would be a better place if more people worked on it!
Rachel0 -
When someone finds the killing of animals appalling, the last appropriate thing to do is to wave killing "extra" animals because I won't eat any. That was what was out of line. Eat how you will, but please don't say that since I don't eat animals you will now kill extra to balance the equation. It is a morally reprehensible statement to me and to say it to my face knowing how I feel/stand is incredibly insulting.
And I wasn't saying that the keto HFLC diet is evil or wrong. I feel that the LFHC vegan diet is healthier, but I wan't putting down any other lifestyle choice. I was just defending the diet and how no one should shoot it down based on an incomplete education on its merits. I've done the HFLC, paleo, etc before and I will admit that I felt amazing on it. Then I switch to this and I feel even better. I'm not cutting down the diet based on its health benefits, as I believe that it is far better than the SAD/lifestyle.
And rgugs13, I was saying it was inappropriate (as stated above) to tell me because I eat less animals you will eat more. Saying you eat animals is one thing, but thats like saying because you're christian I'm going to go blow up a cathedral. Or rape a child. Or something like that. NOT ok, and incredibly insulting on a deeply personal level. THAT was what is out of line with his last statement. Eat animals, go ahead, just don't try to insult my deep set beliefs on the matter by stating something similar to what that gentleman said.0 -
Welcome back to carnivorous keto! The fage total yoghurt isn't too bad for carbs, I think America has some funky carbmaster yoghurt though which I can dream about. Hope it works out for you.0
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When someone finds the killing of animals appalling, the last appropriate thing to do is to wave killing "extra" animals because I won't eat any. That was what was out of line. Eat how you will, but please don't say that since I don't eat animals you will now kill extra to balance the equation. It is a morally reprehensible statement to me and to say it to my face knowing how I feel/stand is incredibly insulting.
And I wasn't saying that the keto HFLC diet is evil or wrong. I feel that the LFHC vegan diet is healthier, but I wan't putting down any other lifestyle choice. I was just defending the diet and how no one should shoot it down based on an incomplete education on its merits. I've done the HFLC, paleo, etc before and I will admit that I felt amazing on it. Then I switch to this and I feel even better. I'm not cutting down the diet based on its health benefits, as I believe that it is far better than the SAD/lifestyle.
And rgugs13, I was saying it was inappropriate (as stated above) to tell me because I eat less animals you will eat more. Saying you eat animals is one thing, but thats like saying because you're christian I'm going to go blow up a cathedral. Or rape a child. Or something like that. NOT ok, and incredibly insulting on a deeply personal level. THAT was what is out of line with his last statement. Eat animals, go ahead, just don't try to insult my deep set beliefs on the matter by stating something similar to what that gentleman said.
Sir, do you READ what you write? You say you are not attacking our way of eating--that you didn't call it evil or wrong? ARE YOU INSANE????? You basically told us we were immoral and unethical. and your last paragraph is absolutely SCARY IN A UNIBOMBER WAY in your comparisons.
But I have only one question WHY ON EARTH DID YOU COME TO THIS THREAD AND EVEN OPEN YOUR MOUTH???? It is pretty dang obvious to a NORMAL/SANE person that this subject is NOT FOR YOU;. You poor dear--you SHUDDER at the thought of killing an animal for food. WHY WHY WHY are you trolling a thread that is about MEAT EATERS. Why aren't you talking with your Vegan buddies????? Then you don't have be horrified that we wanna talk about meat.
It is 'INCREDIBLY INSULTING ON A DEEP PERSONAL LEVEL" (to quote you) for you to invade a thread that has nothing to do with you and includes folks that don't want to hear from you.
i don't go to the Vegan threads and talk about chopping heads of chickens or hitting cows in the head with a mallet! ooooh and that nice venison sausage from Bambi's daddy. Why don't just stay off the meat eaters threads. Because you want to spout your crap for your cause. and then turn around and play the victim.0 -
I think I have to return to flat-out text book classic keto or paleo at the minimum. Vegetarian keto, even lacto-ovo-pesco just ain't a-gonna cut it. I tried lacto-ovo-pesco keto, I tried lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 p/c/f. Lacto-ovo-pesco doesn't give enough fat and gives too much carbs. With lacto-ovo-pesco 40/35/25 I can't get enough protein, and I get too much carb! I felt "morally and ethically" good about veg., but I've put on some weight and I feel physically crappy. So I think in the interest of health I need to return to being carnivorous and lipivorous (I think I just made up that word :bigsmile: ). I still like my yogurt and cottage cheese, but if I have to shun them because of their carbs, I will. I've switched to plain unsweetened almond milk which is DA BOMB! I'll track more diligently in MFP to see if the dairy has too much sugar and carb.
I'm a big believer that everyone needs to experiment and find what works for their bodies-there is no one perfect way of eating. Me personally, I'm going in the opposite direction and coming from primal eating to a whole foods, plant based diet. Primal eating was just not a good fit for me and I had to listen to the cues my body was sending me. So far I'm feeling really good and all the side affects I had with primal eating have disappeared (thank goodness lol). But, what works for me isn't going to be what works for someone else!0 -
When someone finds the killing of animals appalling, the last appropriate thing to do is to wave killing "extra" animals because I won't eat any. That was what was out of line. Eat how you will, but please don't say that since I don't eat animals you will now kill extra to balance the equation. It is a morally reprehensible statement to me and to say it to my face knowing how I feel/stand is incredibly insulting.
And I wasn't saying that the keto HFLC diet is evil or wrong. I feel that the LFHC vegan diet is healthier, but I wan't putting down any other lifestyle choice. I was just defending the diet and how no one should shoot it down based on an incomplete education on its merits. I've done the HFLC, paleo, etc before and I will admit that I felt amazing on it. Then I switch to this and I feel even better. I'm not cutting down the diet based on its health benefits, as I believe that it is far better than the SAD/lifestyle.
And rgugs13, I was saying it was inappropriate (as stated above) to tell me because I eat less animals you will eat more. Saying you eat animals is one thing, but thats like saying because you're christian I'm going to go blow up a cathedral. Or rape a child. Or something like that. NOT ok, and incredibly insulting on a deeply personal level. THAT was what is out of line with his last statement. Eat animals, go ahead, just don't try to insult my deep set beliefs on the matter by stating something similar to what that gentleman said.
Sir, do you READ what you write? You say you are not attacking our way of eating--that you didn't call it evil or wrong? ARE YOU INSANE????? You basically told us we were immoral and unethical. and your last paragraph is absolutely SCARY IN A UNIBOMBER WAY in your comparisons.
But I have only one question WHY ON EARTH DID YOU COME TO THIS THREAD AND EVEN OPEN YOUR MOUTH???? It is pretty dang obvious to a NORMAL/SANE person that this subject is NOT FOR YOU;. You poor dear--you SHUDDER at the thought of killing an animal for food. WHY WHY WHY are you trolling a thread that is about MEAT EATERS. Why aren't you talking with your Vegan buddies????? Then you don't have be horrified that we wanna talk about meat.
It is 'INCREDIBLY INSULTING ON A DEEP PERSONAL LEVEL" (to quote you) for you to invade a thread that has nothing to do with you and includes folks that don't want to hear from you.
i don't go to the Vegan threads and talk about chopping heads of chickens or hitting cows in the head with a mallet! ooooh and that nice venison sausage from Bambi's daddy. Why don't just stay off the meat eaters threads. Because you want to spout your crap for your cause. and then turn around and play the victim.
I was not saying YOU were attacking me, but instead the fellow that said for every animal I don't eat he would eat 3. THAT is what I felt was insulting and appalling. I have nothing against anything YOU are saying, just against the dope that thought it would be funny to tell me that because I am doing A, for that reason he will triple negate my A just because. It was not appropriate. Please excuse my knee-jerk reaction to an a**-hole that thinks such an action was funny or appropriate.
In addition, the thread states: Returning to keto/paleo: VEG. (meaning Vegan/Vegetarian) not working. I was hoping to lend support if the OP wanted to keep doing it, as he was doing it for religious reasons. Who are YOU to call ME insane?0 -
WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.
Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
I was totally respecting your comment and admiring that you are finding success on your path until: "Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject."
I am NOT ignorant and I am NOT uneducated and I have a right to my own OPINION (which includes direct experience) and to share it. Just like you. You didn't challenge anything I said, just insulted me as a person. Nice.0 -
WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.
Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
I was totally respecting your comment and admiring that you are finding success on your path until: "Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject."
I am NOT ignorant and I am NOT uneducated and I have a right to my own OPINION (which includes direct experience) and to share it. Just like you. You didn't challenge anything I said, just insulted me as a person. Nice.
So from your last statement, you then think that the vegan diet is unhealthy? If so, then I guess I understand you, despite disagreeing with you, as I and many others are living a fantastically healthy lifestyle eating this way. I was merely saying that you can't write off an entire diet as unhealthy unless it truly is...and guess what? Its not. In addition, I was not stating you were ignorant and uneducated in general, because you clearly aren't. It was that you don't know enough about vegan nutrition to make a stance on it. You can't take a definitive stance on the VEGAN lifestyle as healthy vs unhealthy as you clearly don't know enough about it. You can be healthy, or at least relatively so, on almost any diet (can't on things like the fast food or twinkie diets out there...). I don't generally write blanket statements about a diet unless there is actual definitive proof against/for it, and proof is a funny thing in that it is often manipulated, changed, and altered to fit the benefit of those doing the study.0 -
Have you checked into carb/calorie cycling? Thats what I did to lose the last 55 lbs of fat. I used the lean gains/IF approach which was awesome...unless you are stuck on Keto. You could even try a 40/40/20 macronutrient split and just find your maintenance, subtract -500 and aim for that. At the end of the day its all calories in vs calories out that determines weight loss. People have lost fat eating only twinkies, and that was because they were in a deficit.0
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I wish you well, OP. I hope you find an eating plan that suits your beliefs and body. :flowerforyou:0
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And my argument previously had nothing to do with evolution at all. It was on the ethics of our food choices. The lesser of two evils was a reference to the fact that we don't need meat to survive, so why cause the deaths of more living things than necessary? It isn't speciesism, its making the smallest footprint. It has everything to do with morality and ethics, as well as environmental impact. We are a higher, more evolved species than any other on the planet. With that comes the responsibility to care for it and make higher, more evolved choices than our primal cousins. We aren't base, soul-less animals, but we are individuals who have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. It is what separates us. If you don't see any separation, then go live your primal life in the jungle and lets see how those canines get you through.
Okay, I am going to try this one last time. The above quote is from our resident Vegan. He thinks I am wrong--- says he didn't attack the meat-eating way of life.
I am truly sorry, but I cannot interpret the above paragraph in any other manner. The above paragraph quite plainly states we should make more evolved choices than a primal cousin. So I am a neanderthal or what? I take it we have not 'evolved' to a higher standard of existence? Also states we have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. Meaning those who choose NOT to be Vegan are inhumane, unethical and stupid and ? and should go live in the jungle....???
Okay, am I the ONLY ONE that interprets that as an attack? When did ethics only become about animals? I obviously will spend eternity in hell because I spray poison to keep the scorpions and spiders away, I killed a rattler recently on my doorstep cuz I was afraid to pick it up and drive it down the road and set it free (like I did with the tarantula), I put cages around my tomatoes so the dang ground squirrels wouldn't eat them (guess I should only grow food for the animals), etc., and worst of all--I am unethical because I eat meat.
It doesn't matter that I am honest, or that I recycle and drive a Prius, or that I give to charity (for humans), or that I support gay rights (even tho I am not gay), that I love people regardless of their race or religion, that I am a good mother and grandmother (raising my 6-year-old grandson), that I paid for an attorney for a friend from Trinidad to get her green card so she wouldn't be deported, etc etc etc. The ONLY thing that matters is that I am not Vegan, therefore UNethical.
and I guess I 'should' apologize for calling the Resident Vegan "insane." But the more I read the above paragraph (along with his other postings), the more I think about the UNIBOMBER.0 -
To the OP: Good luck with your healthy lifestyle search. If you wanted to stick with vegetarian/veganism, I could offer some help and advice because I am familiar with healthy ways of implementation. I understand you were making the change for religious reasons and, as a religious person myself, I can understand how important that can be for you. If you can find no other way of reconciling dietary vs health disparities, I wish you good luck on your journey.
I also apologize for taking this thread so far off-topic. I think there have been some misunderstandings on all sides that have led to quite the heated discussion that has muddied the waters around your original query.0 -
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WHY were you trying to avoid meat? I've read a number of accounts published by former vegans who describe in detail how their health deteriorated but they refused to acknowledge it. Some of them have permanent damage. I tried vegan briefly in my youth and my body rebelled immediately. Unfortunately, I continued on starving myself on low fat diets for many years after that. :sad:
How does one do Vegetarian keto? I'm not being a jerk, just really curious. It's a high carb diet by design.
My lifestyle can be described as ketogenic Primal, soon to be ketogenic Paleo. I love it and I feel awesome. I don't feel "deprived" at all. If eating ribeye steaks, mushrooms fried in butter and a side salad is other people's idea of an "unsustainable fad diet" so be it. :laugh:
Edit: today's crops and what is done to grow them is no more ethical than eating meat, and far less ethical than eating wild or free range meat. Also, plants are no less alive than an animal. I don't really understand the specieist attitude of many vegetarians/vegans. The death of watersheds, soil organisms, and the widespread use of petroleum products for pesticides and fertilizers seems to matter not at all to them.
Thats why many of us Vegans opt for organic produce to avoid the pesticides and fertilizers. And it is also about making the best choices available. It costs the "lives" of a vast number of plants to make just one pound of beef, so....lesser of two evils is to eat the plants, obviously.
I've never been stronger/healthier/more alive that I am now on a vegan diet. As an athlete I'm getting faster every day and my endurance is going through the roof. I avoid illness and injury, and my blood tests are immaculate. Your arguments are completely invalid and coming from an uneducated stance. Making a blanket statement about the health of veganism without actually having ANY idea about its health benefits when done right shows your ignorance and closed-mindedness about the subject.
Lesser of two evils? Human beings have canine teeth evolved for eating meat...why shouldn't we?
Because we simply don't need to. And our teeth are FAR from the teeth of other meat eating species. We don't have the claws and razor sharp teeth to rip into a raw animal's flanks, and our digestive system is far too long to be efficient at digesting meat as well. The "canine" argument is so deeply flawed as two pairs of teeth hardly indicates that we evolved to be carnivorous. Seriously, four teeth in our whole mouth prove that we are like the lions of the savannah? Sure we have the capability to eat meat, but that doesn't mean that our diet 25,000 years ago was meat centric. If anything, we only started to eat meat on any regular basis when we developed tools and weapons, and even then it wasn't without difficulty as our bodies don't digest un-cooked meat well at all. It was the advent of modern man with modern tools and modern cooking methods that allowed us to truly start eating meat, but all of that occurred far after or physical form evolved into what it is today.
And my argument previously had nothing to do with evolution at all. It was on the ethics of our food choices. The lesser of two evils was a reference to the fact that we don't need meat to survive, so why cause the deaths of more living things than necessary? It isn't speciesism, its making the smallest footprint. It has everything to do with morality and ethics, as well as environmental impact.
We are a higher, more evolved species than any other on the planet. With that comes the responsibility to care for it and make higher, more evolved choices than our primal cousins. We aren't base, soul-less animals, but we are individuals who have the capacity to make humane, ethical, educated, well-thought-out choices. It is what separates us. If you don't see any separation, then go live your primal life in the jungle and lets see how those canines get you through.
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0
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