Question for self professed "sugar addicts"
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Are avocado and baby back ribs unnatural?
Of course they are natural. That's why I put quotes around "natural" above. Ultimately, all foods are "natural".
But like I said earlier, generally speaking natural foods are not as calorie-dense as processed foods, and unless you spend some serious coin (like on ribs) you are going to have a hard time indulging in the super-tasty ones enough to over-consume calories.
Yes, you can overeat natural foods also. It's just harder to do because most natural foods.
Yeah, I can eat the hell out of some baby back ribs. But as expensive as they are, we don't make them very often.0 -
When you cut them out of your diet and eat only "natural" foods you will find that there simply aren't that many natural foods that you can eat to satisfaction and gain weight on.
You can eat two slices of pizza and take on 700 calories. Try eating a similar volume of any kind of "natural" food and try and hit 800 calories.
Are avocado and baby back ribs unnatural?
REALLY? Which way did that hair split, left or right? Don't worry, whichever direction you pick I will sit here and argue against.
The original argument was correct and doesn't need to have its miniscule holes exposed. It was sound advice and good proof for why "clean eating" is not a magic weight loss plan.
:laugh: This made me laugh, given the thread topic.0 -
The original argument was correct and doesn't need to have its miniscule holes exposed. It was sound advice and good proof for why "clean eating" is not a magic weight loss plan.
It's not "magic", but "clean eating" can help you lose weight if you overeat because of the pleasure of eating.
Why? Because most "natural" foods simply aren't pleasureable to eat like, say, cookies or ice cream or cake or what have you.
That's not to say that there aren't natural foods that are pleasurable to eat, like, say, steak, or prime rib, or shrimp, or lobster, etc. I can totally put away a 1500 calorie slice of Prime Rib.
But those natural foods tend to be expensive and you generally won't be eating them very often.
I got my food addiction under control by switching to foods that are boring. I still indulge now and then, but logging my food here makes me aware of everything that I eat and I can keep things under control.0 -
Diagnostic criteria for 312.31 Pathological Gambling
A. Persistent and recurrent maladaptive gambling behavior as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. is preoccupied with gambling (e.g. preoccupied with reliving past gambling experiences, handicapping or planning the next venture, or thinking of ways to get money with which to gamble)
2. needs to gamble with increasing amounts of money in order to achieve the desired excitement
3. has repeated unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop gambling
4. is restless or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop gambling
5. gambles as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (e.g. feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety, depression)
6. after losing money gambling, often returns another day to get even ("chasing" one's losses)
7. lies to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with gambling
8. has committed illegal acts such as forgery, fraud, theft, or embezzlement to finance gambling
9. has jeopardized or lost a significant relationship, job, or educational or career opportunity because of gambling
10. relies on others to provide money to relieve a desperate financial situation caused by gambling
B. The gambling behavior is not better accounted for by a Manic Episode
Diagnostic criteria for Substance Dependence
A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
a. a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
b. markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance
2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
a. the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from the specific substances)
b. the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
5. a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g. visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g. chain smoking), or recover from its effects
6. important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use.
7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g. current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression, or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)
Specify if :
With Physiological Dependence: evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e. either item 1 or 2 is present)
Without Physiological Dependence: no evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e. neither item 1 or 2 is present)
Source: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR)
American Psychiatric Association
Edited for typo0 -
Diagnostic criteria for 312.31 Pathological Gambling
A. Persistent and recurrent maladaptive gambling behavior as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. is preoccupied with gambling (e.g. preoccupied with reliving past gambling experiences, handicapping or planning the next venture, or thinking of ways to get money with which to gamble)
2. needs to gamble with increasing amounts of money in order to achieve the desired excitement
3. has repeated unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop gambling
4. is restless or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop gambling
5. gambles as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (e.g. feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety, depression)
6. after losing money gambling, often returns another day to get even ("chasing" one's losses)
7. lies to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with gambling
8. has committed illegal acts such as forgery, fraud, theft, or embezzlement to finance gambling
9. has jeopardized or lost a significant relationship, job, or educational or career opportunity because of gambling
10. relies on others to provide money to relieve a desperate financial situation caused by gambling
B. The gambling behavior is not better accounted for by a Manic Episode
Diagnostic criteria for Substance Dependence
A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
a. a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
b. markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance
2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
a. the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from the specific substances)
b. the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
5. a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g. visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g. chain smoking), or recover from its effects
6. important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use.
7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g. current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression, or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)
Specify if :
With Physiological Dependence: evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e. either item 1 or 2 is present)
Without Physiological Dependence: no evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e. neither item 1 or 2 is present)
Source: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR)
American Psychiatric Association
Edited for typo
Off topic much?0 -
OP: since you have absolutely no experience with metabolic disorders because you have never "let yourself go", I don't know why you feel the need speak on this topic. Yet again.
To answer your question: fruit is indeed something that needs to be limited if one is a "sugar addict". But nothing here applies to you, so why don't you just forget about it?
Way to completely miss the point, if they are sugar addicts that can't do moderation of sugar, they shouldn't be able to moderate fruit intake. Perhaps time to go back to making things up about the Pima and nutrient deficiencies?0 -
The original argument was correct and doesn't need to have its miniscule holes exposed. It was sound advice and good proof for why "clean eating" is not a magic weight loss plan.
It's not "magic", but "clean eating" can help you lose weight if you overeat because of the pleasure of eating.
Why? Because most "natural" foods simply aren't pleasureable to eat like, say, cookies or ice cream or cake or what have you.
That's not to say that there aren't natural foods that are pleasurable to eat, like, say, steak, or prime rib, or shrimp, or lobster, etc. I can totally put away a 1500 calorie slice of Prime Rib.
But those natural foods tend to be expensive and you generally won't be eating them very often.
I got my food addiction under control by switching to foods that are boring. I still indulge now and then, but logging my food here makes me aware of everything that I eat and I can keep things under control.
This may be true for you, but not everyone. I find home cooked meals from fresh ingredients much tastier than processed foods. I do eat many foods that aren't "clean" by the strictest definition, but I dislike most premade foods and meals. But then I eat shrimp once or twice a week. It's no more expensive than ordering a pizza.
But I am not a sugar addict. I'd nearly always take the ribs or shrimp over a piece of cake.0 -
Diagnostic criteria for 312.31 Pathological Gambling
A. Persistent and recurrent maladaptive gambling behavior as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. is preoccupied with gambling (e.g. preoccupied with reliving past gambling experiences, handicapping or planning the next venture, or thinking of ways to get money with which to gamble)
2. needs to gamble with increasing amounts of money in order to achieve the desired excitement
3. has repeated unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop gambling
4. is restless or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop gambling
5. gambles as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (e.g. feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety, depression)
6. after losing money gambling, often returns another day to get even ("chasing" one's losses)
7. lies to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with gambling
8. has committed illegal acts such as forgery, fraud, theft, or embezzlement to finance gambling
9. has jeopardized or lost a significant relationship, job, or educational or career opportunity because of gambling
10. relies on others to provide money to relieve a desperate financial situation caused by gambling
B. The gambling behavior is not better accounted for by a Manic Episode
Diagnostic criteria for Substance Dependence
A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
a. a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
b. markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance
2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
a. the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from the specific substances)
b. the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
5. a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g. visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g. chain smoking), or recover from its effects
6. important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use.
7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g. current cocaine use despite recognition of cocaine-induced depression, or continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)
Specify if :
With Physiological Dependence: evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e. either item 1 or 2 is present)
Without Physiological Dependence: no evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e. neither item 1 or 2 is present)
Source: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR)
American Psychiatric Association
Edited for typo
Off topic much?
Eh. There has been mention of addiction throughout the thread, specifically substances and gambling.0 -
Diagnostic criteria for 312.31 Pathological Gambling
A. Persistent and recurrent maladaptive gambling behavior as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. is preoccupied with gambling (e.g. preoccupied with reliving past gambling experiences, handicapping or planning the next venture, or thinking of ways to get money with which to gamble)
Food addiction: Check! It's a common theme among my family members to remenisce about great past restaurant meals and plan the next time we get to indulge.2. needs to gamble with increasing amounts of money in order to achieve the desired excitement
A common saying among my family members regarding good food is "If some is good, more is better!"3. has repeated unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop gambling
Look at how many people are on this board because of past failed attempts to lose weight.4. is restless or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop gambling
LOL yup, check!5. gambles as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (e.g. feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety, depression)
Yup, check! Food is always there to comfort you, and the fatter you get the more consistent a pleasure it is.6. after losing money gambling, often returns another day to get even ("chasing" one's losses)
This one doesn't really apply to food, as once you've eaten it the damage is done. There is no recovery from your loss (except to stop eating, of course).7. lies to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with gambling
I never got this bad, but my wife hides candy to avoid getting **** about it and I have heard of others doing this also.8. has committed illegal acts such as forgery, fraud, theft, or embezzlement to finance gambling
Most people don't have to commit crimes to eat, so this one doesn't really apply.9. has jeopardized or lost a significant relationship, job, or educational or career opportunity because of gambling
Oh yeah. Many fat people are lonely and unable to find a partner because of their weight, and they are quite aware of that fact. It is also well known that attractive people have better careers than unattractive people.10. relies on others to provide money to relieve a desperate financial situation caused by gambling
Again, most people don't have problems coming up with money to eat, so this doesn't really apply.B. The gambling behavior is not better accounted for by a Manic Episode
I suppose this applies to food also.0 -
If a person drinks coffee every day and then stops they are going to get a "caffiene" headache..why because their brain is chemically addicted to caffeine while they also may have the physical habit of reaching for coffee.
While caffeine is not has hard to quit as heroin and the withdrawal symptoms are not as strong It is still an additiction. Just because it is a socially acceptable addiction does not mean it is not one.
In contrast a person who has an addiction to sugar resulting in overeating and obesity does not have a socially acceptable addiction.
Some would argue that having one alcoholic beverage once a week with friends is not an addiction but if the only thing you ever do with friends is drink alcohol..it begins to take on new levels of acceptability.
I think I probably am addicted to sugar like others have said, I can not just eat a little bit and be fine. I also don't gamble or drink because when exposed to those I think I would also crave them more than others. Maybe I have an addictive personality...don't know but I can attest that when I crave sugar I feel physically ill, sweaty, heart racing, will spend money that I dont have...any of the above until I get it and then afterward guilty and I have lied about food intake..
Funny thing where I see it different than other additions is that I do not always feel this way daily but I would say at least once a week. I take metformin because my fasting sugars are high but not through out the day.. I would like to see more research done on the topic.0 -
It's a bad habit for me b/c I have trouble controlling portion sizes when it comes to sweets...I cannot just have a little ice cream--I have to have a huge bowl. And I like to have a good sized dinner, so my dessert would definitely put me over goal. I do not mean that it is bad for everyone--if it fits your calories, great...I just have a hard time with sugar--if I have it, I want it all the time. I am working on this, and sometimes have a piece of chocolate, but I really have issues with self control.I do not know if I am a "sugar addict", but I do believe that it can be habit forming. I got into the bad habit of having dessert every night after dinner. It took me a little while to get to the point where I didn't crave ice cream or something similar after eating. I did not crave fruit. I have found that eating a piece of fruit will kill my craving for a dessert-like item however. This said, I also believe that there are levels of alcoholism. Some people need to drink until they fall asleep or get completely drunk. Some people just HAVE to have a drink or two every night--I identify with those in terms of my sugar "addiction".
Any addiction has two components, physical and mental. So physically, if I alternate fruit for candy, I am satisfying the craving. But mentally I might still really want that donut....so I think that it is different from alcoholism in that I do not know what a substitute would be for alcohol, although it seems that alcoholics sometimes substitute smoking for drinking.
Not sure if this answers your question. It seems from the quotation marks that you do not believe in sugar addiction, but I think that it can be very real. I do not have a truly addictive personality, yet it was difficult for me to "quit" the sugar. Some substances are probably more addictive than others, but that is subjective...
Sorry for the wordy answer and if I was completely off base...
Serious question:
Why is it a bad habit to have desert every night after dinner? I just don't get it.
Personally I sometimes have 3 deserts after dinner. It's all accounted for and pre planned.0 -
If a person drinks coffee every day and then stops they are going to get a "caffiene" headache..why because their brain is chemically addicted to caffeine while they also may have the physical habit of reaching for coffee.
While caffeine is not has hard to quit as heroin and the withdrawal symptoms are not as strong It is still an additiction. Just because it is a socially acceptable addiction does not mean it is not one.
In contrast a person who has an addiction to sugar resulting in overeating and obesity does not have a socially acceptable addiction.
Some would argue that having one alcoholic beverage once a week with friends is not an addiction but if the only thing you ever do with friends is drink alcohol..it begins to take on new levels of acceptability.
I think I probably am addicted to sugar like others have said, I can not just eat a little bit and be fine. I also don't gamble or drink because when exposed to those I think I would also crave them more than others. Maybe I have an addictive personality...don't know but I can attest that when I crave sugar I feel physically ill, sweaty, heart racing, will spend money that I dont have...any of the above until I get it and then afterward guilty and I have lied about food intake..
Funny thing where I see it different than other additions is that I do not always feel this way daily but I would say at least once a week. I take metformin because my fasting sugars are high but not through out the day.. I would like to see more research done on the topic.
Interestingly enough, caffeine withdrawal syndrome will be in the DSM V, sugar/food addiction? Not so much0 -
This ^^^^!I have to agree. I also think people use the word addiction when they really mean lack of self control. I have a lot of friends who are recovering addicts and recovering alcoholics. It's no *walk in the park*.
Uh, isn't the very definition of addiction a behavior that you cannot control?
I consider myself addicted to food in general. Tasty food, anyway, and sweets in particular.
Now I don't think you can eat fruit to somehow "cancel out sugar".
But you can eat fruit, which contains sugar, in moderation simply because you can't go ape-**** eating apples or bananas like you can, say, a box of Oreo cookies.
I could, and have, sit down and eat half a box of Oreo cookies. Easily. And when presented with the box of Oreo cookies, especially once my willpower has broken to where I've allowed myself to eat "one", I will probably break down and eat as many as I can eat.
There are about 53 calories in an Oreo. I'm guessing I'd eat about 20 of them in a sitting. That's over 1000 calories - nearly 60% of my daily caloric allotment.
Now apples also contain sugar. But they aren't nearly as appealing as the refined goodness of Oreos! An apple contains about 95 calories. In order to get the equivalent of 20 Oreos, I'd have to eat 11 apples.
I don't think I've ever felt compelled to eat that many apples at a sitting.
This is why eating natural foods is good for weight loss. Even if a calorie is a calorie is a calorie, there just aren't that many compelling natural foods that are as calorie dense and easy to over-consume as processed foods. There are some - shrimp, lobster, steak, etc. - but you'll have to lay out some serious coin to eat your fill of those things.0 -
That's you. I am not an alcoholic, so can I say that alcoholism doesn't exist?What do you do if you're fat? Blame sugar
It's that simple, it makes sense.
The issue lays with over consumption of calories, these people are addicted to food, not sugar.
I was fat, I ate sugary things, I lost weight whilst EATING sugary things.
I'm not addicted, I can go weeks without eating it, I don't want to stop eating it, why? It tastes good and I live once, why not?0 -
That's you. I am not an alcoholic, so can I say that alcoholism doesn't exist?What do you do if you're fat? Blame sugar
It's that simple, it makes sense.
The issue lays with over consumption of calories, these people are addicted to food, not sugar.
I was fat, I ate sugary things, I lost weight whilst EATING sugary things.
I'm not addicted, I can go weeks without eating it, I don't want to stop eating it, why? It tastes good and I live once, why not?
Read the OP, i'm done here, peace out.0 -
It's a bad habit for me b/c I have trouble controlling portion sizes when it comes to sweets...I cannot just have a little ice cream--I have to have a huge bowl. And I like to have a good sized dinner, so my dessert would definitely put me over goal. I do not mean that it is bad for everyone--if it fits your calories, great...I just have a hard time with sugar--if I have it, I want it all the time. I am working on this, and sometimes have a piece of chocolate, but I really have issues with self control.Serious question:
Why is it a bad habit to have desert every night after dinner? I just don't get it.
Personally I sometimes have 3 deserts after dinner. It's all accounted for and pre planned.
[/quote]
I had a horrible ice cream habit. Could eat half a gallon a day or more, no problem. Thought I'd never be able to fit it in my eating plan if I was going to lose this weight. But greek yogurt has made all the difference for me. Mix a little portion of ice cream with a heaping amount of greek yogurt. I don't miss straight up ice cream anymore and found a delicious way to get my protein and calcium in. Maybe this will be of some use to you?0 -
It's a bad habit for me b/c I have trouble controlling portion sizes when it comes to sweets...I cannot just have a little ice cream--I have to have a huge bowl. And I like to have a good sized dinner, so my dessert would definitely put me over goal. I do not mean that it is bad for everyone--if it fits your calories, great...I just have a hard time with sugar--if I have it, I want it all the time. I am working on this, and sometimes have a piece of chocolate, but I really have issues with self control.
I had a horrible ice cream habit. Could eat half a gallon a day or more, no problem. Thought I'd never be able to fit it in my eating plan if I was going to lose this weight. But greek yogurt has made all the difference for me. Mix a little portion of ice cream with a heaping amount of greek yogurt. I don't miss straight up ice cream anymore and found a delicious way to get my protein and calcium in. Maybe this will be of some use to you?
[/quote]0 -
It's a bad habit for me b/c I have trouble controlling portion sizes when it comes to sweets...I cannot just have a little ice cream--I have to have a huge bowl.
No. You do not.
You CAN control the portion size because you are aware of what you're doing. You just choose not to.0 -
If a person drinks coffee every day and then stops they are going to get a "caffiene" headache..why because their brain is chemically addicted to caffeine while they also may have the physical habit of reaching for coffee.
While caffeine is not has hard to quit as heroin and the withdrawal symptoms are not as strong It is still an additiction. Just because it is a socially acceptable addiction does not mean it is not one.
In contrast a person who has an addiction to sugar resulting in overeating and obesity does not have a socially acceptable addiction.
Some would argue that having one alcoholic beverage once a week with friends is not an addiction but if the only thing you ever do with friends is drink alcohol..it begins to take on new levels of acceptability.
I think I probably am addicted to sugar like others have said, I can not just eat a little bit and be fine. I also don't gamble or drink because when exposed to those I think I would also crave them more than others. Maybe I have an addictive personality...don't know but I can attest that when I crave sugar I feel physically ill, sweaty, heart racing, will spend money that I dont have...any of the above until I get it and then afterward guilty and I have lied about food intake..
Funny thing where I see it different than other additions is that I do not always feel this way daily but I would say at least once a week. I take metformin because my fasting sugars are high but not through out the day.. I would like to see more research done on the topic.
Interestingly enough, caffeine withdrawal syndrome will be in the DSM V, sugar/food addiction? Not so much
Not yet.0 -
That's interesting--I had never even thought about what they advise for alcoholism in other countries. I do think that we go too far w/ abstinence (in many cases) and should preach moderation instead.I've seen quite a few "sugar addicts" state they cannot consume sugar in moderation and compare their addiction to alcoholism. Yet these same "addicts" will eat fruit stating the fiber slows down the blood sugar spike. To those that use that rationale, would you also suggest it's ok for alcoholics to drink, just as long as they have food in their stomachs, since the food slows down alcohol absorption?
Also what is a saccharide?
Saccharide=carbohydrate.
There are schools of thought on how to moderate both alcohol and sugar consumption in addicts. Only in the US is abstinence considered the only method for treating alcohol addiction, whereas many other western countries teach moderation for those with alcohol addictions. The same can be applied to sugar addictions.0
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