Doctor Says Phentermine Long Term Not a Problem....Really?
Replies
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i'm still waiting for someone to pop in here with a Phen success story. All these posts and not a single one. Sure, a bunch of people, including the OP, have stated that they "lost weight while on it, but then gained it back for 'different reasons' other than just ceasing to take the drug. Tons of users, lots of bad reactions and side effects, but not one person that was like, "Yep, I took it, lost all the weight, stopped taking it and have been eating normally and not gaining back the weight for X years. Yeah, this really sounds like a drug I'd want to be on for a long time. All the side effects and none of the success.
Can someone pop over to the Success Stories section of the site and see if there are any Phen tales in there? Damn sure aren't any over here.
But I thought the statistics of people regaining the weight they lost was 95% irregardless of any dietary aids. And I saw plenty of posters who stated they used it successfully. Just because they gained the weight back when they stopped means nothing in light of the general statistics IMO.0 -
okay I'm not going to beat the phentermine horse ....
I have PCOS, I know it's damn hard to lose weight. It IS possible to do it though - without phen (I have once). You should be on metformin though if you're still having PCOS symptoms, and even if you're not but you're insulin resistant or showing signs of hyperinsulinaemia - then you should be on Metformin still.
I can't speak to maintaining a loss with PCOS though - I regained weight after both my pregnancies (not during pregnant but after when I couldn't work out as hard and I didn't eat as clean). I had two babies who didn't sleep. I haven't slept more than 4 hours consistently in 9 years now. Pretty sure the sleep deprivation isn't helping my weightloss situation.
At any rate - I just wanted to say that it IS possible to lose weight and even drop your cholesterol without meds. If you can do it without taking pills it's better (in my opinion) but you know what they say - that opinions are like *kitten* - everyone's got one.0 -
i'm still waiting for someone to pop in here with a Phen success story. All these posts and not a single one. Sure, a bunch of people, including the OP, have stated that they "lost weight while on it, but then gained it back for 'different reasons' other than just ceasing to take the drug. Tons of users, lots of bad reactions and side effects, but not one person that was like, "Yep, I took it, lost all the weight, stopped taking it and have been eating normally and not gaining back the weight for X years. Yeah, this really sounds like a drug I'd want to be on for a long time. All the side effects and none of the success.
Can someone pop over to the Success Stories section of the site and see if there are any Phen tales in there? Damn sure aren't any over here.
Most people who go on a diet and lose weight gain it back....thus...not sure the relevance in your statement.
I doubt after the treatment I have gotten talking about Phentermine any one would admit to it....people on this thread have been harsh, rude and extremely judgmental....which is surprising on a forum that I thought was suppose to be positive and encourage people.
Again, the biggest indicator of long term success in any weight loss program is lifestyle adherence (as per the research barring psychological and medical reasons) Diets don't work because people can not stick to a diet long term.
Thus, phentermine in it self doesn't cause people to gain weight back. If you never learned how to change your eating habits in conjunction with it use...along with most diets out there....you will likely gain the weight back once you stop the diet...or in this case drug.0 -
okay I'm not going to beat the phentermine horse ....
I have PCOS, I know it's damn hard to lose weight. It IS possible to do it though - without phen (I have once). You should be on metformin though if you're still having PCOS symptoms, and even if you're not but you're insulin resistant or showing signs of hyperinsulinaemia - then you should be on Metformin still.
I can't speak to maintaining a loss with PCOS though - I regained weight after both my pregnancies (not during pregnant but after when I couldn't work out as hard and I didn't eat as clean). I had two babies who didn't sleep. I haven't slept more than 4 hours consistently in 9 years now. Pretty sure the sleep deprivation isn't helping my weightloss situation.
At any rate - I just wanted to say that it IS possible to lose weight and even drop your cholesterol without meds. If you can do it without taking pills it's better (in my opinion) but you know what they say - that opinions are like *kitten* - everyone's got one.
Yes...opinions are...especially since I wasn't asking for opinions via the original OP....I was asking for people who had been on Phentermine what people had heard or their personal experience....but that hasn't stopped the opinions from coming....In fact...it has been quite fascinating.0 -
i'm still waiting for someone to pop in here with a Phen success story. All these posts and not a single one. Sure, a bunch of people, including the OP, have stated that they "lost weight while on it, but then gained it back for 'different reasons' other than just ceasing to take the drug. Tons of users, lots of bad reactions and side effects, but not one person that was like, "Yep, I took it, lost all the weight, stopped taking it and have been eating normally and not gaining back the weight for X years. Yeah, this really sounds like a drug I'd want to be on for a long time. All the side effects and none of the success.
Can someone pop over to the Success Stories section of the site and see if there are any Phen tales in there? Damn sure aren't any over here.
Most people who go on a diet and lose weight gain it back....thus...not sure the relevance in your statement.
I doubt after the treatment I have gotten talking about Phentermine any one would admit to it....people on this thread have been harsh, rude and extremely judgmental....which is surprising on a forum that I thought was suppose to be positive and encourage people.
Again, the biggest indicator of long term success in any weight loss program is lifestyle adherence (as per the research barring psychological and medical reasons) Diets don't work because people can not stick to a diet long term.
Thus, phentermine in it self doesn't cause people to gain weight back. If you never learned how to change your eating habits in conjunction with it use...along with most diets out there....you will likely gain the weight back once you stop the diet...or in this case drug.
and yet not only are you dead set on taking it, you want to start taking it long term. even tho you say yourself that you will most likely gain the weight back when you stop.
like i said before, all the risks with none of the return. best of luck to you in your fitness journey.0 -
i'm still waiting for someone to pop in here with a Phen success story. All these posts and not a single one. Sure, a bunch of people, including the OP, have stated that they "lost weight while on it, but then gained it back for 'different reasons' other than just ceasing to take the drug. Tons of users, lots of bad reactions and side effects, but not one person that was like, "Yep, I took it, lost all the weight, stopped taking it and have been eating normally and not gaining back the weight for X years. Yeah, this really sounds like a drug I'd want to be on for a long time. All the side effects and none of the success.
Can someone pop over to the Success Stories section of the site and see if there are any Phen tales in there? Damn sure aren't any over here.
This thread has been an exercise in incredulity for me. It's becoming my daily chuckle to read at this point.0 -
wow0
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i'm still waiting for someone to pop in here with a Phen success story. All these posts and not a single one. Sure, a bunch of people, including the OP, have stated that they "lost weight while on it, but then gained it back for 'different reasons' other than just ceasing to take the drug. Tons of users, lots of bad reactions and side effects, but not one person that was like, "Yep, I took it, lost all the weight, stopped taking it and have been eating normally and not gaining back the weight for X years. Yeah, this really sounds like a drug I'd want to be on for a long time. All the side effects and none of the success.
Can someone pop over to the Success Stories section of the site and see if there are any Phen tales in there? Damn sure aren't any over here.
Most people who go on a diet and lose weight gain it back....thus...not sure the relevance in your statement.
I doubt after the treatment I have gotten talking about Phentermine any one would admit to it....people on this thread have been harsh, rude and extremely judgmental....which is surprising on a forum that I thought was suppose to be positive and encourage people.
Again, the biggest indicator of long term success in any weight loss program is lifestyle adherence (as per the research barring psychological and medical reasons) Diets don't work because people can not stick to a diet long term.
Thus, phentermine in it self doesn't cause people to gain weight back. If you never learned how to change your eating habits in conjunction with it use...along with most diets out there....you will likely gain the weight back once you stop the diet...or in this case drug.
and yet not only are you dead set on taking it, you want to start taking it long term. even tho you say yourself that you will most likely gain the weight back when you stop.
like i said before, all the risks with none of the return. best of luck to you in your fitness journey.
There are no risks for me...none...zip...zilch...zeroooooooo. And again...never asked for people to tell me if I should or shouldn't take it nor did I state i wanted to take it long term....in fact... I have stated just the opposite....but that hasn't stopped the barrage of statements and posts of people assuming that I want to take phentermine till the day I die...which apparently by folks on here would be none too soon since I am taking phentermine.
Here it is in other languages for those that are OBVIOUSLY not speaking English or understand the OP....hope THIS helps...
Nie bat um die Leute zu mir sagen, wenn ich oder sollte nicht nehmen sollte phentermine, nach ihrer Meinung noch habe ich gesagt, ich wollte es nehmen langfristig. Bitte beachten Sie die ursprünglichen OP, wenn Sie verwirrt sind.
Nunca pidió a las personas que me dicen si debo o no debo tomar phentermine, para su opinión, ni dije que quería llevarlo a largo plazo. Por favor, consulte el OP original si está confundido.
私はやフェンテルミンを取るべきではないべきか人々が私に伝えるために求めたことがない、自分の意見のためにも私は、私は、長期的にそれを取るしたいと言った。あなたが混乱している場合、元のOPを参照してください。
N'ont jamais demandé aux gens de me dire si je devrais ou ne devrais pas prendre phentermine, pour leur opinion et je n'ai pas dit que je voulais le prendre à long terme. S'il vous plaît se référer à l'OP original si vous êtes confus.
لم يطلب قط للناس أن تقول لي ما إذا كان ينبغي أو لا ينبغي أن تأخذ فينترمين، لرأيهم ولا أنا أقول إنني أردت أن أعتبر المدى الطويل. يرجى الرجوع إلى OP الاصلي إذا كنت الخلط.0 -
That awkward moment when you begin to suspect other posters are actually 12.0
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i'm still waiting for someone to pop in here with a Phen success story. All these posts and not a single one. Sure, a bunch of people, including the OP, have stated that they "lost weight while on it, but then gained it back for 'different reasons' other than just ceasing to take the drug. Tons of users, lots of bad reactions and side effects, but not one person that was like, "Yep, I took it, lost all the weight, stopped taking it and have been eating normally and not gaining back the weight for X years. Yeah, this really sounds like a drug I'd want to be on for a long time. All the side effects and none of the success.
Can someone pop over to the Success Stories section of the site and see if there are any Phen tales in there? Damn sure aren't any over here.
Most people who go on a diet and lose weight gain it back....thus...not sure the relevance in your statement.
I doubt after the treatment I have gotten talking about Phentermine any one would admit to it....people on this thread have been harsh, rude and extremely judgmental....which is surprising on a forum that I thought was suppose to be positive and encourage people.
Again, the biggest indicator of long term success in any weight loss program is lifestyle adherence (as per the research barring psychological and medical reasons) Diets don't work because people can not stick to a diet long term.
Thus, phentermine in it self doesn't cause people to gain weight back. If you never learned how to change your eating habits in conjunction with it use...along with most diets out there....you will likely gain the weight back once you stop the diet...or in this case drug.
and yet not only are you dead set on taking it, you want to start taking it long term. even tho you say yourself that you will most likely gain the weight back when you stop.
like i said before, all the risks with none of the return. best of luck to you in your fitness journey.
There are no risks for me...none...zip...zilch...zeroooooooo. And again...never asked for people to tell me if I should or shouldn't take it nor did I state i wanted to take it long term....in fact... I have stated just the opposite....but that hasn't stopped the barrage of statements and posts of people assuming that I want to take phentermine till the day I die...which apparently by folks on here would be none too soon since I am taking phentermine.
Here it is in other languages for those that are OBVIOUSLY not speaking English or understand the OP....hope THIS helps...
Nie bat um die Leute zu mir sagen, wenn ich oder sollte nicht nehmen sollte phentermine, nach ihrer Meinung noch habe ich gesagt, ich wollte es nehmen langfristig. Bitte beachten Sie die ursprünglichen OP, wenn Sie verwirrt sind.
Nunca pidió a las personas que me dicen si debo o no debo tomar phentermine, para su opinión, ni dije que quería llevarlo a largo plazo. Por favor, consulte el OP original si está confundido.
私はやフェンテルミンを取るべきではないべきか人々が私に伝えるために求めたことがない、自分の意見のためにも私は、私は、長期的にそれを取るしたいと言った。あなたが混乱している場合、元のOPを参照してください。
N'ont jamais demandé aux gens de me dire si je devrais ou ne devrais pas prendre phentermine, pour leur opinion et je n'ai pas dit que je voulais le prendre à long terme. S'il vous plaît se référer à l'OP original si vous êtes confus.
لم يطلب قط للناس أن تقول لي ما إذا كان ينبغي أو لا ينبغي أن تأخذ فينترمين، لرأيهم ولا أنا أقول إنني أردت أن أعتبر المدى الطويل. يرجى الرجوع إلى OP الاصلي إذا كنت الخلط.
Just so we're all clear here...
...this doesn't appear to be English, right?0 -
Si...I mean Yes.0
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Bump0
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i'm still waiting for someone to pop in here with a Phen success story. All these posts and not a single one. Sure, a bunch of people, including the OP, have stated that they "lost weight while on it, but then gained it back for 'different reasons' other than just ceasing to take the drug. Tons of users, lots of bad reactions and side effects, but not one person that was like, "Yep, I took it, lost all the weight, stopped taking it and have been eating normally and not gaining back the weight for X years. Yeah, this really sounds like a drug I'd want to be on for a long time. All the side effects and none of the success.
Can someone pop over to the Success Stories section of the site and see if there are any Phen tales in there? Damn sure aren't any over here.
Most people who go on a diet and lose weight gain it back....thus...not sure the relevance in your statement.
I doubt after the treatment I have gotten talking about Phentermine any one would admit to it....people on this thread have been harsh, rude and extremely judgmental....which is surprising on a forum that I thought was suppose to be positive and encourage people.
Again, the biggest indicator of long term success in any weight loss program is lifestyle adherence (as per the research barring psychological and medical reasons) Diets don't work because people can not stick to a diet long term.
Thus, phentermine in it self doesn't cause people to gain weight back. If you never learned how to change your eating habits in conjunction with it use...along with most diets out there....you will likely gain the weight back once you stop the diet...or in this case drug.
and yet not only are you dead set on taking it, you want to start taking it long term. even tho you say yourself that you will most likely gain the weight back when you stop.
like i said before, all the risks with none of the return. best of luck to you in your fitness journey.
There are no risks for me...none...zip...zilch...zeroooooooo. And again...never asked for people to tell me if I should or shouldn't take it nor did I state i wanted to take it long term....in fact... I have stated just the opposite....but that hasn't stopped the barrage of statements and posts of people assuming that I want to take phentermine till the day I die...which apparently by folks on here would be none too soon since I am taking phentermine.
Here it is in other languages for those that are OBVIOUSLY not speaking English or understand the OP....hope THIS helps...
Nie bat um die Leute zu mir sagen, wenn ich oder sollte nicht nehmen sollte phentermine, nach ihrer Meinung noch habe ich gesagt, ich wollte es nehmen langfristig. Bitte beachten Sie die ursprünglichen OP, wenn Sie verwirrt sind.
Nunca pidió a las personas que me dicen si debo o no debo tomar phentermine, para su opinión, ni dije que quería llevarlo a largo plazo. Por favor, consulte el OP original si está confundido.
私はやフェンテルミンを取るべきではないべきか人々が私に伝えるために求めたことがない、自分の意見のためにも私は、私は、長期的にそれを取るしたいと言った。あなたが混乱している場合、元のOPを参照してください。
N'ont jamais demandé aux gens de me dire si je devrais ou ne devrais pas prendre phentermine, pour leur opinion et je n'ai pas dit que je voulais le prendre à long terme. S'il vous plaît se référer à l'OP original si vous êtes confus.
لم يطلب قط للناس أن تقول لي ما إذا كان ينبغي أو لا ينبغي أن تأخذ فينترمين، لرأيهم ولا أنا أقول إنني أردت أن أعتبر المدى الطويل. يرجى الرجوع إلى OP الاصلي إذا كنت الخلط.
Just so we're all clear here...
...this doesn't appear to be English, right?
Kiken no anata no doryoku ni un no besuto. Kore wa honto ni hoshi monowo kite, sore de wa nai desuka? Anata wa tadashii kankei naku anata ga honto ni machigatte iru bai? Wakarimash!ta.0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.0
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Resisting my normal urge to abstain, I think you should just take it since you seem to want to. Why are you wasting time soliciting opinions when you have made up your mind?
*really just in to give a Joan salute to this foolishness.0 -
IMO OP you are looking for an easy way out. I have MANY friends who have lost a lot more weight than 55 pounds, with PCOS and kept the weight off, and prevent diabetes in the future,
Ditch the phentermine, eat healthy, exercise, live life and stop paying money for something you do not need.0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
You must be new here. Your foolish ideas pale in comparison to hundreds of others that have been posted over the years. I'm not even remotely joking, which is sad in itself.0 -
IMO OP you are looking for an easy way out. I have MANY friends who have lost a lot more weight than 55 pounds, with PCOS and kept the weight off, and prevent diabetes in the future,
Ditch the phentermine, eat healthy, exercise, live life and stop paying money for something you do not need.
This is my FAVORITE type of response on this thread. Here is my standard response now.....cut and pasted just for you....and likely others as well that stumble across this train wreck of a thread.
I didn't ask for people's opinion if I should or should not take phentermine, I didn't ask for diet or exercise advice, I didn't ask for what people thought of my taking phentermine....please see OP if any confusion.0 -
Resisting my normal urge to abstain, I think you should just take it since you seem to want to. Why are you wasting time soliciting opinions when you have made up your mind?
*really just in to give a Joan salute to this foolishness.
Haven't been soliciting opinions....EVER...in this OP. But that hasn't stopped people from giving them or assuming I wanted them. This is a fascinating development and I am sure there is a case study somewhere in it.0 -
I wouldn't recommend taking it long term. There is no such thing as a safe drug. They all have adverse reactions. You should avoid taking drugs if you can. More drugs=more side effects=even more drugs and polypharmacy.0
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I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
You must be new here. Your foolish ideas pale in comparison to hundreds of others that have been posted over the years. I'm not even remotely joking, which is sad in itself.
*Sigh* So quickly my dreams of being in the Guinness Book Of World Records for longest and most absurd postings has been squashed....0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
I'm amused that you think your silliness is anywhere near impressive enough to make any manner of MFP history.
I promise everyone else is minimally invested and mostly in for the lols/in hopes of winding you up. I know I only pop in to read your responses and giggle.0 -
I wouldn't recommend taking it long term. There is no such thing as a safe drug. They all have adverse reactions. You should avoid taking drugs if you can. More drugs=more side effects=even more drugs and polypharmacy.
I agree with polypharmacy 101....which is why I wanted to see if anyone could confirm with what this Doctor has said or if anyone had been told similar.0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
So it's not really about the discussion or advice/info...it's more about baiting people and trolling. I mean, how else would you get it to be the longest and most absurd.0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
You must be new here. Your foolish ideas pale in comparison to hundreds of others that have been posted over the years. I'm not even remotely joking, which is sad in itself.
No. Double FAIL. Your *kitten* is not even close to being as stupid as other *kitten* on MFP and not funny? I would certainly pack up my prescription and head home. Seriously. No one is laughing here. Well, some people aren't.0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
You must be new here. Your foolish ideas pale in comparison to hundreds of others that have been posted over the years. I'm not even remotely joking, which is sad in itself.
*Sigh* So quickly my dreams of being in the Guinness Book Of World Records for longest and most absurd postings has been squashed....
Well, if it's any consolation, your adamant refusal to listen to any opinions that don't directly confirm your own bias has certainly impressed me (but I'm kinda new here, so what do I know?).0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
You must be new here. Your foolish ideas pale in comparison to hundreds of others that have been posted over the years. I'm not even remotely joking, which is sad in itself.
No. Double FAIL. Your *kitten* is not even close to being as stupid as other *kitten* on MFP and not funny? I would certainly pack up my prescription and head home. Seriously. No one is laughing here. Well, some people aren't.
I laughed at both the OP and this ^.
Not the positive kind of laughter though.0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
I'm amused that you think your silliness is anywhere near impressive enough to make any manner of MFP history.
I promise everyone else is minimally invested and mostly in for the lols/in hopes of winding you up. I know I only pop in to read your responses and giggle.
That awkward moment when you realize a post has been made to in a menial attempt elevate to feel smug....congrats...it is yours...feel good and be amused....it is free.
I was also invested in a possible case study....but now I think it will be a drinking game...
For every time someone gives an unsolicited opinion unrelated to the OP -- One drink
For every time someone says phentermine is addictive -- Two drinks
For every time someone says phentermine is speed -- Three Drinks
For every time someone says (or similar to) "I don't know why you are asking for advice when you are going to do what you want to do anyway" -- Four drinks
And if you are someone who swore they would not look at this thread again...but decided to anyway (and you know who you are) -- Five Drinks
If you posted again...after you swore you would not -- 10 Drinks0 -
I honestly don't know how you do it. Maybe it is the phentermine. Is one of the side effects the ability to say the same thing over and over again and then when you get really really frustrated and it shows have the tolerance to be criticized for it? Personally, I really liked your bi-lingual response. Certainly creative.
Boredom....at least I think. Actually...I am going to see if I can keep this thread going for the next 3 years and have it listed in the longest and most absurd post...which looks like cake at this point.
You must be new here. Your foolish ideas pale in comparison to hundreds of others that have been posted over the years. I'm not even remotely joking, which is sad in itself.
*Sigh* So quickly my dreams of being in the Guinness Book Of World Records for longest and most absurd postings has been squashed....
Well, if it's any consolation, your adamant refusal to listen to any opinions that don't directly confirm your own bias has certainly impressed me (but I'm kinda new here, so what do I know?).
** Drink 4 **0
This discussion has been closed.
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