dieter's edema, squishy fat, wooshes and what nots

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  • ldrosophila
    ldrosophila Posts: 7,512 Member
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    Well from my own research in cell adhesion (smooth muscle cells, immortal lines, chick aorta, fresh) growth serum balancing can create at least a 40-50% change in volume (as measure in a flow cytometer, so error is high) and remain viable. But these were not loaded fat cells.


    Sorry I know this isnt really your question, but it get's me thinking. So after this supposed wooshy/loss of fluid thing, if it exists, you basically have an empty cell no fat or water. I assume that is what would drive the fat cell to shrink in volume? If it doesnt shrink fast enough might that be one reason why weight loss is so difficult? You have this cell devoid of volume wouldnt it want to "fill" itself back up? I know totally off your question, but in my experience when I get that huge loss it's followed by almost a ravenous mind set. It's like my body went into self sabotage mode.
  • wild_wild_life
    wild_wild_life Posts: 1,334 Member
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    Not much to add, but BP seems to be a bit inconsistent in the way he talks about this topic. Edema refers to excess fluid in the extracellular, extravascular space -- so the peripheral edema of dieters of the MSS is truly edema but the proported filling of adipocytes with fluid would not qualify as edema.

    If people losing large amounts of weight do develop this edema, it's possible a more subtle and less dramatic version of it happens to those losing moderate amounts, and that over time this fluid does accumulate enough to contribute to masking the weight lost as fat continues to be burned (in addition to AT and other hormonal changes that may be affecting metabolism). It doesn't necessarily have to be water filling the cells. I can't find any reference to that phenomenon other than people on other message boards asking the same question...

    ETA: It's so meta when you google something and come upon your own MFP thread. Is there life on other websites?
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
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    Not much to add, but BP seems to be a bit inconsistent in the way he talks about this topic. Edema refers to excess fluid in the extracellular, extravascular space -- so the peripheral edema of dieters of the MSS is truly edema but the proported filling of adipocytes with fluid would not qualify as edema.

    If people losing large amounts of weight do develop this edema, it's possible a more subtle and less dramatic version of it happens to those losing moderate amounts, and that over time this fluid does accumulate enough to contribute to masking the weight lost as fat continues to be burned (in addition to AT and other hormonal changes that may be affecting metabolism). It doesn't necessarily have to be water filling the cells. I can't find any reference to that phenomenon other than people on other message boards asking the same question...

    ETA: It's so meta when you google something and come upon your own MFP thread. Is there life on other websites?

    Really echos my thoughts, too.

    However, I'll add that I'd guess that edema of this type is likely a slower process (given the likely process of protein subpar production affecting either vascular tissue or homeostasis) than the variability due to what we eat and digest or just glyco-driven edema in muscles or from exercise imflamatory response and repair.

    If it exists the effect periodicity is lower than the periodicity of other weight variable effects and would, in itself be masked by day in day out variability to some extent.
  • Jestinia
    Jestinia Posts: 1,154 Member
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    People tend to see cholesterol levels drop when they lose weight, right? So after watching a talk last night on the water proofing aspect of cholesterol, I wondered if the body is scavenging that cholesterol for other uses and letting some fat cells become water storage until they're needed again (hopefully never!) for fat storage. But I haven't studied this enough and I'm in way over my head at this point. In fact someone in this thread might have already said something similar and I just didn't know the terminology. But oh well. Random morning speculation time.
  • wild_wild_life
    wild_wild_life Posts: 1,334 Member
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    Not much to add, but BP seems to be a bit inconsistent in the way he talks about this topic. Edema refers to excess fluid in the extracellular, extravascular space -- so the peripheral edema of dieters of the MSS is truly edema but the proported filling of adipocytes with fluid would not qualify as edema.

    If people losing large amounts of weight do develop this edema, it's possible a more subtle and less dramatic version of it happens to those losing moderate amounts, and that over time this fluid does accumulate enough to contribute to masking the weight lost as fat continues to be burned (in addition to AT and other hormonal changes that may be affecting metabolism). It doesn't necessarily have to be water filling the cells. I can't find any reference to that phenomenon other than people on other message boards asking the same question...

    ETA: It's so meta when you google something and come upon your own MFP thread. Is there life on other websites?

    Really echos my thoughts, too.

    However, I'll add that I'd guess that edema of this type is likely a slower process (given the likely process of protein subpar production affecting either vascular tissue or homeostasis) than the variability due to what we eat and digest or just glyco-driven edema in muscles or from exercise imflamatory response and repair.

    If it exists the effect periodicity is lower than the periodicity of other weight variable effects and would, in itself be masked by day in day out variability to some extent.

    I agree. I would also add that, since people report that the adipose tissue itself feels squishy/edematous and do not report dependent edema, it may be a localized process within the adipose interstitium, perhaps having to do with vasodilation or increased vascular permeability, rather than a systemic protein oncotic imbalance as would occur with protein malnutrition. But it seems like something like this would be easily documented if someone took the time to investigate it.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
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    Not much to add, but BP seems to be a bit inconsistent in the way he talks about this topic. Edema refers to excess fluid in the extracellular, extravascular space -- so the peripheral edema of dieters of the MSS is truly edema but the proported filling of adipocytes with fluid would not qualify as edema.

    If people losing large amounts of weight do develop this edema, it's possible a more subtle and less dramatic version of it happens to those losing moderate amounts, and that over time this fluid does accumulate enough to contribute to masking the weight lost as fat continues to be burned (in addition to AT and other hormonal changes that may be affecting metabolism). It doesn't necessarily have to be water filling the cells. I can't find any reference to that phenomenon other than people on other message boards asking the same question...

    ETA: It's so meta when you google something and come upon your own MFP thread. Is there life on other websites?

    Really echos my thoughts, too.

    However, I'll add that I'd guess that edema of this type is likely a slower process (given the likely process of protein subpar production affecting either vascular tissue or homeostasis) than the variability due to what we eat and digest or just glyco-driven edema in muscles or from exercise imflamatory response and repair.

    If it exists the effect periodicity is lower than the periodicity of other weight variable effects and would, in itself be masked by day in day out variability to some extent.

    I agree. I would also add that, since people report that the adipose tissue itself feels squishy/edematous and do not report dependent edema, it may be a localized process within the adipose interstitium, perhaps having to do with vasodilation or increased vascular permeability, rather than a systemic protein oncotic imbalance as would occur with protein malnutrition. But it seems like something like this would be easily documented if someone took the time to investigate it.

    Add to the list preferential lipolysis rates for low weight lipids?
    If it was water replacing tissue then I'd expect possiblz less squishiness as water is basically incompressible.

    Project for a little utrasound. MRI and micro-puncture biopsies? Nice easy thesis for cheap.
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
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    I volunteer some stomach fat. :tongue:
  • wild_wild_life
    wild_wild_life Posts: 1,334 Member
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    Add to the list preferential lipolysis rates for low weight lipids?
    If it was water replacing tissue then I'd expect possiblz less squishiness as water is basically incompressible.

    Project for a little utrasound. MRI and micro-puncture biopsies? Nice easy thesis for cheap.

    I'll read the biopsies!

    I know when you have atrophy of fat due to starvation, the adipose tissue becomes edematous, but I have never seen that microscopically except in the late stages of fat depletion/emaciation.
  • QuietBloom
    QuietBloom Posts: 5,413 Member
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    If it was water replacing tissue then I'd expect possiblz less squishiness as water is basically incompressible.

    My thoughts exactly.

    Also: I have never experienced 'marbled fat' or not had anything except 'squishy fat'. I feel left out. :sad:
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    In for bump.

    Don't the articles about it also relate the release to getting a good carb refeed in.

    Leangains mentions alcohol as part of that, few other places (no studies obviously) just relate to finally eating enough carbs.

    Heard it mentioned on forums for running when people are doing the mis-applied carbo-loading because they don't understand that proper method, but they comment on weight drop and fat seemed to be gone.

    I can appreciate why a study would be difficult, if no confirmed way to cause it, how would you get a bunch of participants in to the state to study it. Can't start an open-ended study with open funding (well, difficult) in the hopes an effect will happen to show up.
    And since it's mostly after the effect noticed, little to no ability to see what state body or diet was in prior to effect, not with enough accuracy.
  • QuietBloom
    QuietBloom Posts: 5,413 Member
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    Heard it mentioned on forums for running when people are doing the mis-applied carbo-loading because they don't understand that proper method, but they comment on weight drop and fat seemed to be gone.

    What it they are misunderstanding? Just curious, as I am a runner.
  • Fivepts
    Fivepts Posts: 517 Member
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    In and hoping there will be a summary for the simple people as to what this means and how it affects us:wink:
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    Heard it mentioned on forums for running when people are doing the mis-applied carbo-loading because they don't understand that proper method, but they comment on weight drop and fat seemed to be gone.

    What it they are misunderstanding? Just curious, as I am a runner.

    Oh, just the simple method to eat a big carb dinner the night before or 2 nights before. While that obviously will top off any glucose stores with room, it's not the same as the carbo loading where you can get them to hold more than normal.

    That requires the whole week prior, totally depleting stores as best you can, then doing the refeed at proper moment to store more than was there prior.

    http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960

    Optimization strategies for ‘carbohydrate loading’ abound, and not all of those used by athletes are based on sound physiologic reasoning. Several schemes have proven effective and have been reviewed by McArdle and colleagues [22]. All of these techniques are variations on a three-phase theme: Prolonged or high-intensity exercise of the muscles to be loaded, typically followed first by a period of dietary carbohydrate restriction, and then ultimately by a period of high carbohydrate intake. Such schedules are designed to induce a ‘glycogen supercompensation’ effect, whereby glycogen depletion and carbohydrate restriction stimulate increased expression of glycogen synthase in the depleted muscle fibers, enhancing their ability to synthesize glycogen during the final, high-carbohydrate-diet phase, permitting muscle fibers to store glycogen in supranormal concentrations.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/582526-new-to-marathons-avoid-hitting-the-wall-calculator
  • EMTFreakGirl
    EMTFreakGirl Posts: 597 Member
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    I have not done any research on this but I have experienced it myself. When I was bigger, before weight loss, the fat on my body was solid, not jiggly. Then I start eating right and working out and after a month or two suddenly the fat on my body got really soft and jiggly and suddenly there was a big drop on the scale. This cycle has repeated itself 4 or 5 times now. I can always tell when a whoosh is about to happen based on how my fat feels.

    I'm not crazy. :wink:

    Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • QuietBloom
    QuietBloom Posts: 5,413 Member
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    Heard it mentioned on forums for running when people are doing the mis-applied carbo-loading because they don't understand that proper method, but they comment on weight drop and fat seemed to be gone.

    What it they are misunderstanding? Just curious, as I am a runner.

    Oh, just the simple method to eat a big carb dinner the night before or 2 nights before. While that obviously will top off any glucose stores with room, it's not the same as the carbo loading where you can get them to hold more than normal.

    That requires the whole week prior, totally depleting stores as best you can, then doing the refeed at proper moment to store more than was there prior.

    http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960

    Optimization strategies for ‘carbohydrate loading’ abound, and not all of those used by athletes are based on sound physiologic reasoning. Several schemes have proven effective and have been reviewed by McArdle and colleagues [22]. All of these techniques are variations on a three-phase theme: Prolonged or high-intensity exercise of the muscles to be loaded, typically followed first by a period of dietary carbohydrate restriction, and then ultimately by a period of high carbohydrate intake. Such schedules are designed to induce a ‘glycogen supercompensation’ effect, whereby glycogen depletion and carbohydrate restriction stimulate increased expression of glycogen synthase in the depleted muscle fibers, enhancing their ability to synthesize glycogen during the final, high-carbohydrate-diet phase, permitting muscle fibers to store glycogen in supranormal concentrations.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/582526-new-to-marathons-avoid-hitting-the-wall-calculator

    Kewl, thanks! Bookmarking this!
  • AnotherOrangeCat
    AnotherOrangeCat Posts: 54
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    I have a question that's probably only peripherally scientific. If a group of cells is full of water, wouldn't it feel *less* squishy than the cells with a little water around a fat droplet? What's the relative density there? If we are talking water masking fat loss, it would mean same weight or same volume?

    Or is the 'squishyness' because of the extra-cellular water decrease? I'm thinking purely tactile - how would it feel if the cells are overfilled with water? Generally bloating doesn't make you feel squishy, it's hard and rather unpleasant, so I've always associated squishyness with dehydration. Or is it again ES vs. IS?
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
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    bump
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
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    I have a question that's probably only peripherally scientific. If a group of cells is full of water, wouldn't it feel *less* squishy than the cells with a little water around a fat droplet? What's the relative density there? If we are talking water masking fat loss, it would mean same weight or same volume?

    Or is the 'squishyness' because of the extra-cellular water decrease? I'm thinking purely tactile - how would it feel if the cells are overfilled with water? Generally bloating doesn't make you feel squishy, it's hard and rather unpleasant, so I've always associated squishyness with dehydration. Or is it again ES vs. IS?
    I think that question came up in a prior page. If you find an answer, let us know.
  • turtleball
    turtleball Posts: 217 Member
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    My body feels MUCH softer, and some parts feel squishy. I actually searched this a few days ago, people say it happened to them too!
  • wild_wild_life
    wild_wild_life Posts: 1,334 Member
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    I have a question that's probably only peripherally scientific. If a group of cells is full of water, wouldn't it feel *less* squishy than the cells with a little water around a fat droplet? What's the relative density there? If we are talking water masking fat loss, it would mean same weight or same volume?

    Or is the 'squishyness' because of the extra-cellular water decrease? I'm thinking purely tactile - how would it feel if the cells are overfilled with water? Generally bloating doesn't make you feel squishy, it's hard and rather unpleasant, so I've always associated squishyness with dehydration. Or is it again ES vs. IS?

    Edema can feel soft or firm depending on how much fluid is in the tissues. Water is denser than fat (fat floats in water), so a given volume of water would be heavier than a given volume of fat. If water were actually filling the fat cells in the place of lipid (which I think is still up for debate), whether it would feel soft or firm would probably depend on how much water there was.

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