For all women who are striving for "

The attitude that you displayed is that the victimization of men is equivalent to women, in cultural consequence it is very different, and when you tell women to step out of women's studies classrooms to 'win' that invites further hostility and pits it as us vs. them, which you continue to underscore in your recent comment.

No one is saying your concern is hogwash,

we both agreed that objectionable of men does in fact happen, but there will be no change in any of this until there is a greater cultural understanding on everyone's part, which doesn't have to come from a classroom, it comes from observing the world and media. Acknowledging that things are not equal does not mean that your point is invalid, but the fact that it only surfaces as a point as a negative response other concerns, it is not productive. If you are interested in the issue, lets have a discussion without the asterisks.

Here, I pulled that piece out for you. Yes. the exact word they used about my concern was actually..."hogwash"

The point never really was that things are "equal" so much, the point is that every time the subject is brought up and things like men are introduced into the equation, the inevitable conclusion is that...well.....you are not the main victim...its not really targeted so much to you... women have it so much worse. My point is that it doesn't really matter which one is more wrong if they are both wrong.

If you want o make slideshows highlighting this, do not make them gender specific. Do not make them skinny specific. When it is happening to everyone, there is no target audience. Until you decide to include all segments of the population that are being subjected to this then you are just going to spin your wheels.

Plus,.. real men like curves and real boobs. Not digitally enhanced ones.. :~)

Real men like whatever the hell they like. How about you do what makes you happy and don't worry if a man is going to like you or find you attractive. It was very liberating for me when I stopped caring if men liked my muscles or not.

The attitude that you displayed is that the victimization of men is equivalent to women, in cultural consequence it is very different, and when you tell women to step out of women's studies classrooms to 'win' that invites further hostility and pits it as us vs. them, which you continue to underscore in your recent comment.

No one is saying your concern is hogwash,

we both agreed that objectionable of men does in fact happen, but there will be no change in any of this until there is a greater cultural understanding on everyone's part, which doesn't have to come from a classroom, it comes from observing the world and media. Acknowledging that things are not equal does not mean that your point is invalid, but the fact that it only surfaces as a point as a negative response other concerns, it is not productive. If you are interested in the issue, lets have a discussion without the asterisks.

Here, I pulled that piece out for you. Yes. the exact word they used about my concern was actually..."hogwash"

The point never really was that things are "equal" so much, the point is that every time the subject is brought up and things like men are introduced into the equation, the inevitable conclusion is that...well.....you are not the main victim...its not really targeted so much to you... women have it so much worse. My point is that it doesn't really matter which one is more wrong if they are both wrong.

If you want o make slideshows highlighting this, do not make them gender specific. Do not make them skinny specific. When it is happening to everyone, there is no target audience. Until you decide to include all segments of the population that are being subjected to this then you are just going to spin your wheels.

One should not take away from the other IMO.

I will say however that one of the reasons that male issues are not more in the lime-light is that they don't speak up.

I had this male friend...he was emotionally and physically abuse by his wife for years...he never spoke up. Some of us that he had confided in finally convinced him to seek help. There is help out there for men such as in this case but even that help is kept will hidden.

I know that men have this "societal image" that they feel they have to live up to but before it will change...they have to put aside ego and speak up.

The attitude that you displayed is that the victimization of men is equivalent to women, in cultural consequence it is very different, and when you tell women to step out of women's studies classrooms to 'win' that invites further hostility and pits it as us vs. them, which you continue to underscore in your recent comment.

No one is saying your concern is hogwash,

we both agreed that objectionable of men does in fact happen, but there will be no change in any of this until there is a greater cultural understanding on everyone's part, which doesn't have to come from a classroom, it comes from observing the world and media. Acknowledging that things are not equal does not mean that your point is invalid, but the fact that it only surfaces as a point as a negative response other concerns, it is not productive. If you are interested in the issue, lets have a discussion without the asterisks.

Here, I pulled that piece out for you. Yes. the exact word they used about my concern was actually..."hogwash"

The point never really was that things are "equal" so much, the point is that every time the subject is brought up and things like men are introduced into the equation, the inevitable conclusion is that...well.....you are not the main victim...its not really targeted so much to you... women have it so much worse. My point is that it doesn't really matter which one is more wrong if they are both wrong.

If you want o make slideshows highlighting this, do not make them gender specific. Do not make them skinny specific. When it is happening to everyone, there is no target audience. Until you decide to include all segments of the population that are being subjected to this then you are just going to spin your wheels.

You are right, I glossed over the hogwash line to the statements below it. I am sorry.

I think this is an issue that affects both genders, but since the genders are treated differently within it I think that needs to be part of the discussion. Not to leave anyone out, but to discuss the situation and a solution with a view on how the reality of the objectification plays out. Not to be the bigger victim and dismiss others concerns, but the inequality and underlying messages, as well as the consequences that these messages have and those who are using the messages to sell... it all needs to be taken into account if we are to have a discussion. The issue I took with your response wasn't that I disagree with men being affected by this issue, but that bringing up men's being affected in such a way as to seem to be detracting from a womans concern for the issue, makes it come across as your problem is with women being concerned about it, not the men being affected. Women who have been having this discussion for years are well used to this tactic by people who are seeking to derail the conversation. Your response seemed like that, so I assumed that, because I honestly have never heard anyone bring that up as anything but an argument to devalue the conversation, except of course those who are already in the discussion. I work for a non profit that is involved in this kind of advocacy, I am well used to the types of conversations that go on surrounding it. Coming at it as an argument, rather than a supporter, as it seemed to me that you did, is not productive. If that helps inform you of why I responded as I did.

I actually have not found any celebrity to be "perfect" looking, tall or small, curvy or slender...but most of them are pretty enough to look at, even to a woman's eyes. I want to be thin just because I have never been thin so I want to have it, not because I want to look like them..

It starts very, very young for both genders, but there is a big difference overall. Females are expected to be most summed up by attractiveness, while males are expected to be most summed up by a trait or activity.

Here is a cite for that, because me just saying it could sound like it's just my opinion. Bitter grapes or something, lol.

"In addition, our results showing the prevalence of female appearance-related stereotypes in the
descriptions of girls by even the youngest children raise questions about the potential
implications of this finding for girls’ behavioral and adjustment outcomes. Specifically, girls
who deviate from gender appearance stereotypes may incur peer rejection, leaving them
vulnerable to adjustment problems. Further, greater accessibility for appearance stereotypes
may also imply that girls and boys receive consistent messages about the most important
qualities girls should possess very early in development, which may leave girls vulnerable to
psychological distress should their self-esteem become contingent on self-perceived
attractiveness (Nolen-Hoeksema 2001; Ohring et al. 2002; Patrick et al. 2004).

A consideration of the content of stereotypes children viewed as most characteristic of boys
raises similar issues. Specifically, some of the most frequently mentioned trait stereotypes for
male targets included attributes that imply physically aggressive and anti-social behavior (e.g.,
mean, plays rough, fights; see Table 3). This emphasis on aggression may place boys at
significant emotional and physical risks. In addition, the preponderance of activity stereotypes
emphasizing athletics or sports among boys at all ages (with the exception of preschool) is
striking. Such a strong emphasis on athletic ability and roughness may set an unachievable
standard for boys who do not possess these qualities, potentially placing them at risk for poor
adjustment."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709873/pdf/nihms96774.pdf

So when talking about physical appearance, I think it's fair to say that the gender split is definitely in favor of the guys. That's not to say that there is no pressure there for guys, obviously. But it's simply not the same issue as it is for our girls, especially.

There are lots of studies about adult women and society's emphasis on beauty, too, but I'll stick to kids here to make the point that it's all very ingrained and very societal. Men might not 'see' that, but then that just sort of proves how different it is to grow up a girl or boy! You'd be a bit clueless if you'd not been through it

Not this drivel again... :noway:

I also want to clarify on my above post that I don't disagree with the video. It was the posts following it with the crap about men loving meat, not bones, etc.

In addition to the video the OP shared, I would also like take it a step further, and point out that every women in this Dove ad not only have only one body type, but they are heavily photo shopped as well:



I find it interesting that none of these women have cellulite. Hell, I'm on the skinny side, and I have cellulite!!!!

the best curves are made of muscle. I will continue to strive to be my best regardless of what anyone else thinks.