move less and eat less
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I agree 100% with OP.
I used to work out 5 times a week, but at the moment I am on a weightloss program. I have lost 7kg in the last 11 weeks by doing intermittent fasting in form of ADF, 4:3 and 5:2 and by changing my dietary habits from partially bad ones to mainly good ones.
I am aware that this is putting my body through a massive change and for the time being the only exercise I am doing is a one hour fast walk in fresh air and counting my steps with fitbit force. I am trying to get enough sleep and once I have reached my goal weight, which is very soon, I will gently reintroduce my exercise regime.
Mind you that is not easy as I have my own gym at home and I love my elliptical trainer, but for the time being I see it as counter productive to put my body through more stress than it has to go through.
Losing weight AND working out excessively do not work very well together, but than...everybody can and should do as they see right.
Stef.
i hope you understand this means you are either insane or mentally ill.
either that, or you are reading with your "reading comprehension" cap on, combined with a shared experience that leads you to know EXACTLY what I am talking about and why it needs to be said. Could you talk a bit about how you came to realize this? I'm looking for something to say to the me from 4 months ago that would get through his thick skull.
STEF! you might want to look into a program like the RPT Martin Berkhan recommends to go along with his version of IF. You can add rest days to it if necessary.0 -
I disagree 100%. When I was anorexic, I lost about 3/4 lb per week. When I learned how to eat right and exercise (sometimes crazy exercise), I lost 2 or more lbs per week.
Now that I tore my calf muscle and cant exercise at all for 2 weeks, I have to stick with 1200 calories. I'll let you know how that turns out.0 -
I disagree 100%. When I was anorexic, I lost about 3/4 lb per week. When I learned how to eat right and exercise (sometimes crazy exercise), I lost 2 or more lbs per week.
Now that I tore my calf muscle and cant exercise at all for 2 weeks, I have to stick with 1200 calories. I'll let you know how that turns out.
should have mentioned in the OP that this is not advice for someone with an eating disorder. that's an illness you need to address with medical help.
Anorexia tends to go with PROLONGED steep deficits. The whole reason for doing this is to DECREASE your total days in a negative energy balance.0 -
So, what you are saying is along the lines of what Dr. Elliot Darden says:
3 workouts per week, no more than X minutes each, right?
Darden also uses 12 or fail, over 3 sets of (x) reps, as he claims (and shows studies) that doing 12 reps at your max weight is just as, if not more, beneficial than, sets of reps repeated.
Is that what you are saying?0 -
Just so I totally understand your POV.... I am totally doing this all wrong and have been for the 3 years of weight loss and 1 1/2 years of maintenance. I started out trapped in my house unable to walk from room to room, Was literally hoisted into a therapy pool on a water chair and used water displacement for 17 months to allow me to stand long enough to exercise and lose enough weight to get out of the pool and get fitted with braces to allow me to exercise out of the pool. I fuel my body for the workout I do (been eating 4000 calories a day for the past 14 months in maintenance) and am currently working out 6 days a week with a random rest day mixed in based off the routine I am doing each week. I am doing both weight training (4 days) and cardio (some form 6 days). and along the way I lost a few pounds.... you are totally against this approach because to you I am over training correct????0
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So, what you are saying is along the lines of what Dr. Elliot Darden says:
3 workouts per week, no more than X minutes each, right?
Darden also uses 12 or fail, over 3 sets of (x) reps, as he claims (and shows studies) that doing 12 reps at your max weight is just as, if not more, beneficial than, sets of reps repeated.
Is that what you are saying?
hey, this is an improvement! you are asking me what I meant to say, instead of deciding for me like some others have here.
thanks man!
hmmm... so. to clarify - my 3 days a week number was arbitrary. i guessed anyone underdoing rest is probably doing more than 3 a week.
that said, and I've said it here too but it got lost, what I actually suggest is adding in some rest days to see what happens. In my case, athletic (strength) gains accelerated along with weight loss, a sure sign I was previously overtraining for my capacity, or at least under-resting. a pro athlete or even someone with a sports background though, might have a higher capacity, and a much older trainee might have even less capacity than I do ( and 3 could be too much per week!).
another great variable to play with is training volume and intensity - in my case I decreased volume and increased intensity. this should also apply to running (try shorter distances running faster, or the reverse, but don't forget to add a rest day)0 -
I agree 100% with OP.
I used to work out 5 times a week, but at the moment I am on a weightloss program. I have lost 7kg in the last 11 weeks by doing intermittent fasting in form of ADF, 4:3 and 5:2 and by changing my dietary habits from partially bad ones to mainly good ones.
I am aware that this is putting my body through a massive change and for the time being the only exercise I am doing is a one hour fast walk in fresh air and counting my steps with fitbit force. I am trying to get enough sleep and once I have reached my goal weight, which is very soon, I will gently reintroduce my exercise regime.
Mind you that is not easy as I have my own gym at home and I love my elliptical trainer, but for the time being I see it as counter productive to put my body through more stress than it has to go through.
Losing weight AND working out excessively do not work very well together, but than...everybody can and should do as they see right.
Stef.
i hope you understand this means you are either insane or mentally ill.
either that, or you are reading with your "reading comprehension" cap on, combined with a shared experience that leads you to know EXACTLY what I am talking about and why it needs to be said. Could you talk a bit about how you came to realize this? I'm looking for something to say to the me from 4 months ago that would get through his thick skull.
STEF! you might want to look into a program like the RPT Martin Berkhan recommends to go along with his version of IF. You can add rest days to it if necessary.
Thanks, I am aware of this.
I admire you for coming back to this thread...your theory is so easy to verify, but then...it seems people do not want to hear it....
Stef.0 -
It has taken me a year to figure out, and I'd be a jerk if I didn't share.
Trying to lose weight? Working out more than 3 times a week? There is your problem.
Take a look around at posts from people "doing everything right and not losing". What do almost all of them have in common? Crazy exercise regimen.
Losing weight is a destructive process. By definition. While you are tearing down the body you have now, don't think of training as anything but a way to reduce the damage from this process. Eat less, move less. Find a distraction that isn't going to prolong your weight loss. Working out is not a good one!
I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense at all...
Which statement(s) do you disagree with?
I'll list the concepts in order, keeping in mind the criticisms of my admittedly somewhat cryptic writing style:
X1)I figured something out through trial and error, which was not necessary because guys like Berkhan and McDonald said it a million times
2)if you are trying to (as opposed to succeeding at) lose weight and you are working out more than 3 times a week (arbitrary number, since I just want the subject to experiment with doing less), your problem is too much working out
3)probability-based guess, based in my unscientific sense of reading the same complaint over and over with the similar details from the poster; pretty much the most common mistake after undercounting is the crazy exercise regimen
4)losing weight is a destructive process (you can look up two words, entropy and decomposition, to figure out why I and the medical community define weight loss as a destructive process with associated trauma). Incidentally, training itself is also destructive and traumatic, even though the resulting adaptation and the overall process is constructive
5)rest is good therapy for trauma, generally speaking, but also specifically in training for adaptation
6)eat less, move less - you can handle higher deficits with more rest than you can if you eat and burn it off as exercise (not overestimated please - this is because even though we think of "net" energy balance, growth of organisms as adaptation is not a simple zero-sum game, and total total metabolic output is going to influence how the system operates to an extent - if you don't believe me just consume and burn 12,000 cals a day for a week and let me know how you feel after.) really all this is saying is that you should not add trauma in top of trauma if you can help it, but rather apply a therapeutic intervention (rest! Or in certain cases, drugs)
7) find a distraction - see the marshmallow experiment, Mischel et al.
In the interest of avoiding more straw man, please refer to the concepts by number when refuting them. If you feel I didn't
To account for a concept I'd be glad to own it or not own it (up to me, btw) based on your suggestion. I will not defend concepts I don't agree with or things I didn't say, nor will I respond to them, because the haters just see it as an opening to shift the conversation away from the topic at hand, to "win" the thread (starting to wonder if so,e of us get prizes or if it's just ego boost, or plain old stimulating for bored people)
Dude... you are losing me.
To lose fat, eat at a slight deficit. To preserve muscle mass while dieting do resistance training. To strengthen your heart and cardiovascular system do cardio a couple times per week.
Yes, exercise is a destructive process, but you are missing the point that the body responds by adapting to the added stress by coming back stronger then it was before. Eat nutrient dense foods to give your body the tools it needs to recover. Get adequate sleep to allow the recovery process to happen.0 -
Just so I totally understand your POV.... I am totally doing this all wrong and have been for the 3 years of weight loss and 1 1/2 years of maintenance. I started out trapped in my house unable to walk from room to room, Was literally hoisted into a therapy pool on a water chair and used water displacement for 17 months to allow me to stand long enough to exercise and lose enough weight to get out of the pool and get fitted with braces to allow me to exercise out of the pool. I fuel my body for the workout I do (been eating 4000 calories a day for the past 14 months in maintenance) and am currently working out 6 days a week with a random rest day mixed in based off the routine I am doing each week. I am doing both weight training (4 days) and cardio (some form of 6 days). and along the way I lost a few pounds.... you are totally against this approach because to you I am over training correct????
IDK, maybe you are working optimally for your capacity.
test it! add in some rest days and see what happens. if your brain is sort of refusing the very idea, you suffer from a cognitive distortion, my friend, because when you are being rational you don't feel like the sky will fall because you didn't work out today.0 -
commenting so that I can read later.0
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It has taken me a year to figure out, and I'd be a jerk if I didn't share.
Trying to lose weight? Working out more than 3 times a week? There is your problem.
Take a look around at posts from people "doing everything right and not losing". What do almost all of them have in common? Crazy exercise regimen.
Losing weight is a destructive process. By definition. While you are tearing down the body you have now, don't think of training as anything but a way to reduce the damage from this process. Eat less, move less. Find a distraction that isn't going to prolong your weight loss. Working out is not a good one!
I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense at all...
Which statement(s) do you disagree with?
I'll list the concepts in order, keeping in mind the criticisms of my admittedly somewhat cryptic writing style:
X1)I figured something out through trial and error, which was not necessary because guys like Berkhan and McDonald said it a million times
2)if you are trying to (as opposed to succeeding at) lose weight and you are working out more than 3 times a week (arbitrary number, since I just want the subject to experiment with doing less), your problem is too much working out
3)probability-based guess, based in my unscientific sense of reading the same complaint over and over with the similar details from the poster; pretty much the most common mistake after undercounting is the crazy exercise regimen
4)losing weight is a destructive process (you can look up two words, entropy and decomposition, to figure out why I and the medical community define weight loss as a destructive process with associated trauma). Incidentally, training itself is also destructive and traumatic, even though the resulting adaptation and the overall process is constructive
5)rest is good therapy for trauma, generally speaking, but also specifically in training for adaptation
6)eat less, move less - you can handle higher deficits with more rest than you can if you eat and burn it off as exercise (not overestimated please - this is because even though we think of "net" energy balance, growth of organisms as adaptation is not a simple zero-sum game, and total total metabolic output is going to influence how the system operates to an extent - if you don't believe me just consume and burn 12,000 cals a day for a week and let me know how you feel after.) really all this is saying is that you should not add trauma in top of trauma if you can help it, but rather apply a therapeutic intervention (rest! Or in certain cases, drugs)
7) find a distraction - see the marshmallow experiment, Mischel et al.
In the interest of avoiding more straw man, please refer to the concepts by number when refuting them. If you feel I didn't
To account for a concept I'd be glad to own it or not own it (up to me, btw) based on your suggestion. I will not defend concepts I don't agree with or things I didn't say, nor will I respond to them, because the haters just see it as an opening to shift the conversation away from the topic at hand, to "win" the thread (starting to wonder if so,e of us get prizes or if it's just ego boost, or plain old stimulating for bored people)
Dude... you are losing me.
To lose fat, eat at a slight deficit. To preserve muscle mass while dieting do resistance training. To strengthen your heart and cardiovascular system do cardio a couple times per week.
Yes, exercise is a destructive process, but you are missing the point that the body responds by adapting to the added stress by coming back stronger then it was before. Eat nutrient dense foods to give your body the tools it needs to recover. Get adequate sleep to allow the recovery process to happen.
Exactly!! QFT.....0 -
You've missed the entire point. This is about people eating very little (eat less, go straight to 1200 or less!) and exercising too much (huge deficit.) there are two ways around it. Eat more (smaller deficit) or cut back on exercise (smaller deficit.) I would think it's a fairly obvious concept.It has taken me a year to figure out, and I'd be a jerk if I didn't share.
Trying to lose weight? Working out more than 3 times a week? There is your problem.
Take a look around at posts from people "doing everything right and not losing". What do almost all of them have in common? Crazy exercise regimen.
Losing weight is a destructive process. By definition. While you are tearing down the body you have now, don't think of training as anything but a way to reduce the damage from this process. Eat less, move less. Find a distraction that isn't going to prolong your weight loss. Working out is not a good one!
I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense at all...
Which statement(s) do you disagree with?
I'll list the concepts in order, keeping in mind the criticisms of my admittedly somewhat cryptic writing style:
X1)I figured something out through trial and error, which was not necessary because guys like Berkhan and McDonald said it a million times
2)if you are trying to (as opposed to succeeding at) lose weight and you are working out more than 3 times a week (arbitrary number, since I just want the subject to experiment with doing less), your problem is too much working out
3)probability-based guess, based in my unscientific sense of reading the same complaint over and over with the similar details from the poster; pretty much the most common mistake after undercounting is the crazy exercise regimen
4)losing weight is a destructive process (you can look up two words, entropy and decomposition, to figure out why I and the medical community define weight loss as a destructive process with associated trauma). Incidentally, training itself is also destructive and traumatic, even though the resulting adaptation and the overall process is constructive
5)rest is good therapy for trauma, generally speaking, but also specifically in training for adaptation
6)eat less, move less - you can handle higher deficits with more rest than you can if you eat and burn it off as exercise (not overestimated please - this is because even though we think of "net" energy balance, growth of organisms as adaptation is not a simple zero-sum game, and total total metabolic output is going to influence how the system operates to an extent - if you don't believe me just consume and burn 12,000 cals a day for a week and let me know how you feel after.) really all this is saying is that you should not add trauma in top of trauma if you can help it, but rather apply a therapeutic intervention (rest! Or in certain cases, drugs)
7) find a distraction - see the marshmallow experiment, Mischel et al.
In the interest of avoiding more straw man, please refer to the concepts by number when refuting them. If you feel I didn't
To account for a concept I'd be glad to own it or not own it (up to me, btw) based on your suggestion. I will not defend concepts I don't agree with or things I didn't say, nor will I respond to them, because the haters just see it as an opening to shift the conversation away from the topic at hand, to "win" the thread (starting to wonder if so,e of us get prizes or if it's just ego boost, or plain old stimulating for bored people)
Dude... you are losing me.
To lose fat, eat at a slight deficit. To preserve muscle mass while dieting do resistance training. To strengthen your heart and cardiovascular system do cardio a couple times per week.
Yes, exercise is a destructive process, but you are missing the point that the body responds by adapting to the added stress by coming back stronger then it was before. Eat nutrient dense foods to give your body the tools it needs to recover. Get adequate sleep to allow the recovery process to happen.0 -
It has taken me a year to figure out, and I'd be a jerk if I didn't share.
Trying to lose weight? Working out more than 3 times a week? There is your problem.
Take a look around at posts from people "doing everything right and not losing". What do almost all of them have in common? Crazy exercise regimen.
Losing weight is a destructive process. By definition. While you are tearing down the body you have now, don't think of training as anything but a way to reduce the damage from this process. Eat less, move less. Find a distraction that isn't going to prolong your weight loss. Working out is not a good one!
I have a neck injury that flares up from time to time, making my cardio workouts sporadic. I certainly lose more when I am not able to work out as much. I've tried to talk about it but someone instantly shows up trying to prove that I'm doing something wrong or not calculating my intake or output correctly. Since I have quite a bit to lose (currently off steroids, which is really helping) and I also want to improve my cardiovascular endurance, I'm just sort of plodding along.0 -
It has taken me a year to figure out, and I'd be a jerk if I didn't share.
Trying to lose weight? Working out more than 3 times a week? There is your problem.
Take a look around at posts from people "doing everything right and not losing". What do almost all of them have in common? Crazy exercise regimen.
Losing weight is a destructive process. By definition. While you are tearing down the body you have now, don't think of training as anything but a way to reduce the damage from this process. Eat less, move less. Find a distraction that isn't going to prolong your weight loss. Working out is not a good one!
I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense at all...
Which statement(s) do you disagree with?
I'll list the concepts in order, keeping in mind the criticisms of my admittedly somewhat cryptic writing style:
X1)I figured something out through trial and error, which was not necessary because guys like Berkhan and McDonald said it a million times
2)if you are trying to (as opposed to succeeding at) lose weight and you are working out more than 3 times a week (arbitrary number, since I just want the subject to experiment with doing less), your problem is too much working out
3)probability-based guess, based in my unscientific sense of reading the same complaint over and over with the similar details from the poster; pretty much the most common mistake after undercounting is the crazy exercise regimen
4)losing weight is a destructive process (you can look up two words, entropy and decomposition, to figure out why I and the medical community define weight loss as a destructive process with associated trauma). Incidentally, training itself is also destructive and traumatic, even though the resulting adaptation and the overall process is constructive
5)rest is good therapy for trauma, generally speaking, but also specifically in training for adaptation
6)eat less, move less - you can handle higher deficits with more rest than you can if you eat and burn it off as exercise (not overestimated please - this is because even though we think of "net" energy balance, growth of organisms as adaptation is not a simple zero-sum game, and total total metabolic output is going to influence how the system operates to an extent - if you don't believe me just consume and burn 12,000 cals a day for a week and let me know how you feel after.) really all this is saying is that you should not add trauma in top of trauma if you can help it, but rather apply a therapeutic intervention (rest! Or in certain cases, drugs)
7) find a distraction - see the marshmallow experiment, Mischel et al.
In the interest of avoiding more straw man, please refer to the concepts by number when refuting them. If you feel I didn't
To account for a concept I'd be glad to own it or not own it (up to me, btw) based on your suggestion. I will not defend concepts I don't agree with or things I didn't say, nor will I respond to them, because the haters just see it as an opening to shift the conversation away from the topic at hand, to "win" the thread (starting to wonder if so,e of us get prizes or if it's just ego boost, or plain old stimulating for bored people)
Dude... you are losing me.
To lose fat, eat at a slight deficit. To preserve muscle mass while dieting do resistance training. To strengthen your heart and cardiovascular system do cardio a couple times per week.
Yes, exercise is a destructive process, but you are missing the point that the body responds by adapting to the added stress by coming back stronger then it was before. Eat nutrient dense foods to give your body the tools it needs to recover. Get adequate sleep to allow the recovery process to happen.
your body comes back stronger than before? that's not a given, sorry. your body comes back stronger than before IF: 1)resources are available
2)it has an opportunity to repair itself fully
keep pushing it, and you eventually find out you've been burning the candle at both ends (systemic inflammatory response is your clinical tipoff, and MEASURABLE). At first you may just see a slowdown in progress, but eventually, keep asking for more complexity than is possible to generate in the given time, and you will get sick!
your body is an energy system with LIMITS on rates of transfer into and out of the system! If you like physics you understand why this makes the answer "thermodynamics" almost always half wrong when someone tries to claim a calorie is not a calorie.0 -
wow...I am sorry, but I have been following this thread and OP, it seems to me you are simply advocating against the EatMore crowd, encouraging 'steep' deficits and intermittent fasting as the way to go. You should be more forthright with your intentions right from the get go rather than positioning your discovery as something new to the boards here.
Rest days are important for many reasons. Yup. But all this other stuff on your agenda, they are just other approaches that can be used when breaking a plateau - which have been discussed ad nauseum on the boards.
It ain't rocket science, folks.0 -
your body comes back stronger than before? that's not a given, sorry. your body comes back stronger than before IF: 1)resources are available
2)it has an opportunity to repair itself fully
But why would you NOT give it the resources it requires and the opportunity to repair itself?0 -
You've missed the entire point. This is about people eating very little (eat less, go straight to 1200 or less!) and exercising too much (huge deficit.) there are two ways around it. Eat more (smaller deficit) or cut back on exercise (smaller deficit.) I would think it's a fairly obvious concept.It has taken me a year to figure out, and I'd be a jerk if I didn't share.
Trying to lose weight? Working out more than 3 times a week? There is your problem.
Take a look around at posts from people "doing everything right and not losing". What do almost all of them have in common? Crazy exercise regimen.
Losing weight is a destructive process. By definition. While you are tearing down the body you have now, don't think of training as anything but a way to reduce the damage from this process. Eat less, move less. Find a distraction that isn't going to prolong your weight loss. Working out is not a good one!
I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense at all...
Which statement(s) do you disagree with?
I'll list the concepts in order, keeping in mind the criticisms of my admittedly somewhat cryptic writing style:
X1)I figured something out through trial and error, which was not necessary because guys like Berkhan and McDonald said it a million times
2)if you are trying to (as opposed to succeeding at) lose weight and you are working out more than 3 times a week (arbitrary number, since I just want the subject to experiment with doing less), your problem is too much working out
3)probability-based guess, based in my unscientific sense of reading the same complaint over and over with the similar details from the poster; pretty much the most common mistake after undercounting is the crazy exercise regimen
4)losing weight is a destructive process (you can look up two words, entropy and decomposition, to figure out why I and the medical community define weight loss as a destructive process with associated trauma). Incidentally, training itself is also destructive and traumatic, even though the resulting adaptation and the overall process is constructive
5)rest is good therapy for trauma, generally speaking, but also specifically in training for adaptation
6)eat less, move less - you can handle higher deficits with more rest than you can if you eat and burn it off as exercise (not overestimated please - this is because even though we think of "net" energy balance, growth of organisms as adaptation is not a simple zero-sum game, and total total metabolic output is going to influence how the system operates to an extent - if you don't believe me just consume and burn 12,000 cals a day for a week and let me know how you feel after.) really all this is saying is that you should not add trauma in top of trauma if you can help it, but rather apply a therapeutic intervention (rest! Or in certain cases, drugs)
7) find a distraction - see the marshmallow experiment, Mischel et al.
In the interest of avoiding more straw man, please refer to the concepts by number when refuting them. If you feel I didn't
To account for a concept I'd be glad to own it or not own it (up to me, btw) based on your suggestion. I will not defend concepts I don't agree with or things I didn't say, nor will I respond to them, because the haters just see it as an opening to shift the conversation away from the topic at hand, to "win" the thread (starting to wonder if so,e of us get prizes or if it's just ego boost, or plain old stimulating for bored people)
Dude... you are losing me.
To lose fat, eat at a slight deficit. To preserve muscle mass while dieting do resistance training. To strengthen your heart and cardiovascular system do cardio a couple times per week.
Yes, exercise is a destructive process, but you are missing the point that the body responds by adapting to the added stress by coming back stronger then it was before. Eat nutrient dense foods to give your body the tools it needs to recover. Get adequate sleep to allow the recovery process to happen.
well, not quite! your energy system model there has no limits on transfers in and out. in reality, such limits exist. You can't create complexity in a system, which requires more matter/energy, without transferring energy into that system, so only a system with infinite capacity for absorbing energy could follow the model you propose.0 -
your body comes back stronger than before? that's not a given, sorry. your body comes back stronger than before IF: 1)resources are available
2)it has an opportunity to repair itself fully
But why would you NOT give it the resources it requires and the opportunity to repair itself?
that's the question I asked in my OP, based on the curious case of me, a guy who DID JUST THAT!
it appears you agree with me, sir, but are confused about why someone would need to be told. the answer is that some people are like me, it makes no sense, but we can help fix it with some choice reminders and shifts in emphasis.0 -
:huh:0
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your body comes back stronger than before? that's not a given, sorry. your body comes back stronger than before IF: 1)resources are available
2)it has an opportunity to repair itself fully
But why would you NOT give it the resources it requires and the opportunity to repair itself?
that's the question I asked in my OP, based on the curious case of me, a guy who DID JUST THAT!
it appears you agree with me, sir, but are confused about why someone would need to be told. the answer is that some people are like me, it makes no sense, but we can help fix it with some choice reminders and shifts in emphasis.
So your solution is to eat less and move less?0
This discussion has been closed.
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