Deadlift and Overhead Press - Some Lessons Learned
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i was deadlifting today, and as I was pulling the weight up from the floor, I felt my back helping a bit, is this ok?0
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i was deadlifting today, and as I was pulling the weight up from the floor, I felt my back helping a bit, is this ok?
Absolutely. The back is a huge part of the deadlift. Just don't round out.0 -
Yes, don't think of pulling the bar away from the floor, think of it as pushing the floor away from the bar.For overhead press I think you're better off experimenting with grip and finding the strongest position for yourself.
For deadlift pulling your shoulder blades back will limit how much you can lift. You won't find too many powerlifters doing that and definitely not the ones with the biggest deadlifts.
Agree! Don't pull your shoulders back, they should be over the bar. Your grip, depends on how far you feet are apart, and not the bar. Everything should be as closed as possible, bar to the shin, hands right outside of your leg. You want the shortest trip vertical as possible.
Also, think of deadlifts as a pushing exercise and not pulling. The bar is there for leverage and your pushing the floor away from you.
Steve just wrote what I would have. I trained with a former Danish national strength coach last month, and the "cue" that worked for me was to think about pushing the bar back through your shins on the up. That upward movement is "straight" and your knees are moving back out of the way, not the bar going out and around the knees.
If that makes sense?
Yup makes total sense. The deadlift should be approached as a push movement and not a pull exercises.0 -
That's not a Deadlift at all. What you're doing is called a rack pull.Thanks everyone for your replies!
Yes, I got to remember to keep the bar almost touching my legs throughout the whole movement of deadlift. And also to start by having the bar directly over the middle of my foot.
And since I started with an empty barbell on the rack, I didn't start from the ground, so I was like to the trainer: "so I'm doing romanian deadlifts." And he was like no: "you're still doing conventional deadlifts, just not resting the weight on the ground."
In a technical sense, yes, it's a rack pull, but if the rails are set to simulate the height of the bar as if you had 45lb plates on it, then it's pretty close to a deadlift.
This is a very interesting thread..I'm learning a lot but am now wondering..I'm very new to lifting and still lifting very light compared to some, but it's a challenge for me. I lift the 65lb straight bar right off the rack and start my 'romanian dead lifts from there. I don't bring the bar to the ground but to around mid shin. So is that considered a rack pull and not dead lift? Should i just place the bar on the ground and start from that position as opposed to right from the rack?0 -
This is a very interesting thread..I'm learning a lot but am now wondering..I'm very new to lifting and still lifting very light compared to some, but it's a challenge for me. I lift the 65lb straight bar right off the rack and start my 'romanian dead lifts from there. I don't bring the bar to the ground but to around mid shin. So is that considered a rack pull and not dead lift? Should i just place the bar on the ground and start from that position as opposed to right from the rack?
Unless you have 45 lbs plates on the sides, or something of similar size, you shouldn't go to the floor. My gym has wooden weights that are cut the same size as the 45 lbs, for lighter lifters.
If you go all the way to the floor with the weight you're lifting, the bar will be lower than normal, so you have to bend over more to reach the bar, thereby compromising your form. Lower the bar to approximately where it would be if it were resting on the floor with 45 lbs weights on it, and then start your ascending movement.0 -
Most males should be able to start with 45 plates. I know I could and I'm definitely not an example of peak physical strength.0
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This is a very interesting thread..I'm learning a lot but am now wondering..I'm very new to lifting and still lifting very light compared to some, but it's a challenge for me. I lift the 65lb straight bar right off the rack and start my 'romanian dead lifts from there. I don't bring the bar to the ground but to around mid shin. So is that considered a rack pull and not dead lift? Should i just place the bar on the ground and start from that position as opposed to right from the rack?
Unless you have 45 lbs plates on the sides, or something of similar size, you shouldn't go to the floor. My gym has wooden weights that are cut the same size as the 45 lbs, for lighter lifters.
If you go all the way to the floor with the weight you're lifting, the bar will be lower than normal, so you have to bend over more to reach the bar, thereby compromising your form. Lower the bar to approximately where it would be if it were resting on the floor with 45 lbs weights on it, and then start your ascending movement.
well- doing deficits can good- not for newbs.
but blanket "don't do that it's bad" comments are also bad and should be clarified.
most males should start with the bar and learn technique first- just like everyone else.Most males should be able to start with 45 plates. I know I could and I'm definitely not an example of peak physical strength.
also- no- you should not be dragging the bar up your shins EVERY time. That's bad.
If you hit shins or knees- least you know you are in the right range- but actually hitting them EVERY time- is bad technique.
edit: there is no ideal grip placement- everyone's comfortable grip is different- and it depends on where you are targeting or what technique.
I do wide grip OHP to target the front delt.
I do narrow bench to target tri' and deeper front chest
Wide bench -for the outside of the chest
Narrow grip for Sumo dead
wider grip for conventional
fairly neutral grip for stiff leg deads.0 -
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Deadlifts are the exercise where you can have the highest weight on from the physics of it. It's definitely not hard to do 1 plate deadlifts even for someone who just started a few weeks ago.0
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Deadlifts are the exercise where you can have the highest weight on from the physics of it. It's definitely not hard to do 1 plate deadlifts even for someone who just started a few weeks ago.
no. just no.
yes it's going to be one of the heaviest lifts. that's a general rule but you don't know everyone who puts their hands on a bar- where they come from and what they can do. If they have physical limitations or rehab- or grew up with walking phemonia and are substaintially underdeveloped- or had mild MS.
EVERYONE who puts their hands on a bar- should do technique work and start from 1 lb-45 lbs (PVC/Broom stick- bar only).
At no point should a new lifter throw 45's on a bar and just start lifting.
Sure it can happen quickly- but EVERYONE should start with the bar- or work to the bar first.
Technique first- and foremost- then add weight. It is simply not safe or prudent to assume that just because someone has a penis they are capable of lifting 135 lbs off the floor with no training and without throwing their back out.0 -
also- no- you should not be dragging the bar up your shins EVERY time. That's bad.
If you hit shins or knees- least you know you are in the right range- but actually hitting them EVERY time- is bad technique.
That's not what Rippetoe instructs:The Deadlift: Perfect Every Time
1. Take your stance, feet a little closer than you think it needs to be and with your toes out more than you like. Your shins should be about one inch from the bar, no more. This places the bar over the mid-foot – the whole foot, not the mid-instep.
2. Take your grip on the bar, leaving your hips up. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
3. Drop your knees forward and out until your shins touch the bar. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
4. Hard part: squeeze your chest up as hard as you can. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR. This establishes a "wave" of extension that goes all the way down to the lumbar, and sets the back angle from the top down. DO NOT LOWER YOUR HIPS – LIFT THE CHEST TO SET THE BACK ANGLE.
5. Squeeze the bar off the floor and drag it up your legs in contact with your skin/sweats until it locks out at the top. If you have done the above sequence precisely as described, the bar will come off the ground in a perfectly vertical path. All the slack will have come out of the arms and hamstrings in step 4, the bar will not jerk off the ground, and your back will be in good extension. You will perceive that your hips are too high, but if you have completed step 4 correctly, the scapulas, bar, and mid-foot will be in vertical alignment and the pull will be perfect. The pull will seem "shorter" this way.
I'm curious because my deadlift has improved significantly since I've been following this technique advice. I make contact with my shins through lockout.0 -
also- no- you should not be dragging the bar up your shins EVERY time. That's bad.
If you hit shins or knees- least you know you are in the right range- but actually hitting them EVERY time- is bad technique.
That's not what Rippetoe instructs:The Deadlift: Perfect Every Time
1. Take your stance, feet a little closer than you think it needs to be and with your toes out more than you like. Your shins should be about one inch from the bar, no more. This places the bar over the mid-foot – the whole foot, not the mid-instep.
2. Take your grip on the bar, leaving your hips up. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
3. Drop your knees forward and out until your shins touch the bar. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
4. Hard part: squeeze your chest up as hard as you can. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR. This establishes a "wave" of extension that goes all the way down to the lumbar, and sets the back angle from the top down. DO NOT LOWER YOUR HIPS – LIFT THE CHEST TO SET THE BACK ANGLE.
5. Squeeze the bar off the floor and drag it up your legs in contact with your skin/sweats until it locks out at the top. If you have done the above sequence precisely as described, the bar will come off the ground in a perfectly vertical path. All the slack will have come out of the arms and hamstrings in step 4, the bar will not jerk off the ground, and your back will be in good extension. You will perceive that your hips are too high, but if you have completed step 4 correctly, the scapulas, bar, and mid-foot will be in vertical alignment and the pull will be perfect. The pull will seem "shorter" this way.
I'm curious because my deadlift has improved significantly since I've been following this technique advice. I make contact with my shins through lockout.
closer is better than further.
But dragging a dirty *kitten* bar across your shins EVERY time you pull a lift is not correct, safe or healthy- it's asking for infection. You should not be breaking skin- it happens- yes. It means you are pretty spot on- but it should not be so aggressive you are busting your knees and shins every lift.0 -
also- no- you should not be dragging the bar up your shins EVERY time. That's bad.
If you hit shins or knees- least you know you are in the right range- but actually hitting them EVERY time- is bad technique.
That's not what Rippetoe instructs:The Deadlift: Perfect Every Time
1. Take your stance, feet a little closer than you think it needs to be and with your toes out more than you like. Your shins should be about one inch from the bar, no more. This places the bar over the mid-foot – the whole foot, not the mid-instep.
2. Take your grip on the bar, leaving your hips up. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
3. Drop your knees forward and out until your shins touch the bar. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
4. Hard part: squeeze your chest up as hard as you can. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR. This establishes a "wave" of extension that goes all the way down to the lumbar, and sets the back angle from the top down. DO NOT LOWER YOUR HIPS – LIFT THE CHEST TO SET THE BACK ANGLE.
5. Squeeze the bar off the floor and drag it up your legs in contact with your skin/sweats until it locks out at the top. If you have done the above sequence precisely as described, the bar will come off the ground in a perfectly vertical path. All the slack will have come out of the arms and hamstrings in step 4, the bar will not jerk off the ground, and your back will be in good extension. You will perceive that your hips are too high, but if you have completed step 4 correctly, the scapulas, bar, and mid-foot will be in vertical alignment and the pull will be perfect. The pull will seem "shorter" this way.
I'm curious because my deadlift has improved significantly since I've been following this technique advice. I make contact with my shins through lockout.
closer is better than further.
But dragging a dirty *kitten* bar across your shins EVERY time you pull a lift is not correct, safe or healthy- it's asking for infection. You should not be breaking skin- it happens- yes. It means you are pretty spot on- but it should not be so aggressive you are busting your knees and shins every lift.
Ahh, I see what you're saying. No, I'm not breaking skin but there is light contact. Thanks for the explanation.0 -
that is why you should wear long pants when deadlifting
also I have a question for you more experienced guys:
when you are lifting 45 lbs on each side or more, should you rest the bar on the ground or on the ground with like a mat or something so that you don't have to go down as much? The reason I ask is because sometimes I see people deadlifting, and there is nothing on the ground, just plain ground. However, some other people put 2 mats on the floor, and rest the bar on the mat each time. The latter doesn't make a huge clanking noise in the process.
So what is the right or best way to do it? Or is it up to personal preference and height? I'm 5 ft 9 by the way.0 -
has little to do with height and more to do with the floor- or rather what type of floor they have- I don't use them- only when I'm dropping it from cleans. Just less noise and less likely to wack the floor (my weights are significantly lower at that point so they do get dropped a bit more)
I never lift in long pants- that's just silly. Only fitted capris.0 -
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has little to do with height and more to do with the floor- or rather what type of floor they have- I don't use them- only when I'm dropping it from cleans. Just less noise and less likely to wack the floor (my weights are significantly lower at that point so they do get dropped a bit more)
I never lift in long pants- that's just silly. Only fitted capris.
I don't understand... so do you use a mat or not when you dl?
and how does it depend on the floor? could you explain more?0 -
has little to do with height and more to do with the floor- or rather what type of floor they have- I don't use them- only when I'm dropping it from cleans. Just less noise and less likely to wack the floor (my weights are significantly lower at that point so they do get dropped a bit more)
I never lift in long pants- that's just silly. Only fitted capris.
I don't understand... so do you use a mat or not when you dl?
and how does it depend on the floor? could you explain more?
There is no need to use mats when DL, you shouldn't be bouncing the weights off the floor anyways, like I see most people doing. You rest a split second and reset, before your next rep on DL. That's why it's called a deadlift.
Doing power cleans and that stuff, the weight usually gets dropped from a higher point, therefor, mats are usually used.
As far as the issue with the shins. I always DL in pants, but, then again I always train with paints/sweatshirt/hoodies.0 -
Bump0
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I never retracted my scapula during the deadlift. Here is a post from Mark Rippetoe on the topic:I do not coach a scapula retraction as a part of deadlift form. I focus instead on spinal position, which must be held in rigid thoracic and lumbar extension. It has been my experience that normal anatomical position is the best position for both the spine and the shoulders, since the traps are going to do the work of transferring force from the back to the arms anyway. A heavy deadlift will pull the scapulas out of retraction at some point during the pull, and they will end up where they would have been had they not been retracted in the first place.
The scapulas are the structures that transfer force from the rigid back to the arms and down to the bar. The traps function in isometric contraction during the deadlift (and clean and snatch) to hold the scapulas in place as the bar travels up from the ground. During this trip the back angle stays constant, anchored by the hamstrings, and the quads open the knees to push the bar away from the floor. The job of the traps is to anchor the scapulas in place so that the force can be transmitted up the rigid spine and then across the traps to the scapulas, from which the arms hang. An active concentric contraction of the traps does not aid this process, and may in fact be detrimental if the traps get pulled out of concentric contraction by fatigue from trying to stay shrugged. And if the shrug changes the vertical relationship of the scapula/bar/mid-foot line, then it alters normal pulling mechanics. A very heavy record deadlift might well require a trap cue to keep the upper back from rounding off too much, but lifters at the level I coach do not need to think about a trap shrug.
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=72350 -
UPDATE:
I still feel like I am not deadlifting right. Today, I figured out a major reason why: because I am treating DL as a pulling, not a pushing motion. Someone on this topic mentioned DL is a pushing motion; I never really understood what that meant until today. First of all, I am doing way too heavy weight (25lbs on each side). Because I cannot push this weight up with my heels, my body is forced to pull the bar upwards using my hands and back instead. This causes back strain and does not work my legs at all.
So next time I attempt DL, I am going to put 10 lbs on each side, stack 4 plates on top of each other so that I can rest the bar in-between sets, flex my glutes and legs as usual, and push from my heels (WITHOUT PULLING WITH MY HANDS). People say that you should grip the bar hard, but as a beginner trying to learn this exercise, would it be okay to just lightly hold, not grip the bar, as to make it impossible to pull the bar up with my hands?0 -
bump!0
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has little to do with height and more to do with the floor- or rather what type of floor they have- I don't use them- only when I'm dropping it from cleans. Just less noise and less likely to wack the floor (my weights are significantly lower at that point so they do get dropped a bit more)
I never lift in long pants- that's just silly. Only fitted capris.
I don't understand... so do you use a mat or not when you dl?
and how does it depend on the floor? could you explain more?
There is no need to use mats when DL, you shouldn't be bouncing the weights off the floor anyways, like I see most people doing. You rest a split second and reset, before your next rep on DL. That's why it's called a deadlift.
Doing power cleans and that stuff, the weight usually gets dropped from a higher point, therefor, mats are usually used.
As far as the issue with the shins. I always DL in pants, but, then again I always train with paints/sweatshirt/hoodies.
that.
sorry totally missed it- but that.0 -
Wow..... There is a lot of really, really bad info going around in this thread. Everyone stop, go on youtube and watch the "So you think you can bench" series and the "so you think you can deadlift" series and learn the real way to do these lifts. Even the things OP was told by a trainer weren't correct. Remember, a trainer isn't necessarily a good lifting coach but a successful lifter is.0
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UPDATE:
I still feel like I am not deadlifting right. Today, I figured out a major reason why: because I am treating DL as a pulling, not a pushing motion. Someone on this topic mentioned DL is a pushing motion; I never really understood what that meant until today. First of all, I am doing way too heavy weight (25lbs on each side). Because I cannot push this weight up with my heels, my body is forced to pull the bar upwards using my hands and back instead. This causes back strain and does not work my legs at all.
So next time I attempt DL, I am going to put 10 lbs on each side, stack 4 plates on top of each other so that I can rest the bar in-between sets, flex my glutes and legs as usual, and push from my heels (WITHOUT PULLING WITH MY HANDS). People say that you should grip the bar hard, but as a beginner trying to learn this exercise, would it be okay to just lightly hold, not grip the bar, as to make it impossible to pull the bar up with my hands?
Yup, threat it as a push rather then pull. Think of holding the bar as leverage so you can push the floor away from you. As far as grip, you to white knuckle it (grip hard), and also to "pull the slack" out of the bar. As your pushing, you want to drive your hips through the bar0 -
Wow..... There is a lot of really, really bad info going around in this thread. Everyone stop, go on youtube and watch the "So you think you can bench" series and the "so you think you can deadlift" series and learn the real way to do these lifts. Even the things OP was told by a trainer weren't correct. Remember, a trainer isn't necessarily a good lifting coach but a successful lifter is.
Yup I agree, great series!0 -
UPDATE:
I still feel like I am not deadlifting right. Today, I figured out a major reason why: because I am treating DL as a pulling, not a pushing motion. Someone on this topic mentioned DL is a pushing motion; I never really understood what that meant until today. First of all, I am doing way too heavy weight (25lbs on each side). Because I cannot push this weight up with my heels, my body is forced to pull the bar upwards using my hands and back instead. This causes back strain and does not work my legs at all.
So next time I attempt DL, I am going to put 10 lbs on each side, stack 4 plates on top of each other so that I can rest the bar in-between sets, flex my glutes and legs as usual, and push from my heels (WITHOUT PULLING WITH MY HANDS). People say that you should grip the bar hard, but as a beginner trying to learn this exercise, would it be okay to just lightly hold, not grip the bar, as to make it impossible to pull the bar up with my hands?
Yup, threat it as a push rather then pull. Think of holding the bar as leverage so you can push the floor away from you. As far as grip, you to white knuckle it (grip hard), and also to "pull the slack" out of the bar. As your pushing, you want to drive your hips through the bar
Do you think it is a good idea to just lightly hold the bar, so that it is impossible to pull it upwards? This way, I can force myself to DL only by pushing through my heels and hips.0 -
No. Grip the bar tightly, like you're trying to rip the bar in half. You should be lifting the bar with your legs and hips.0
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No. Grip the bar tightly, like you're trying to rip the bar in half. You should be lifting the bar with your legs and hips.
Yes, grip the bar tightly. White knuckle it. You don't want that bar going anywhere. This is why most people switch to mix grip when loads start getting heavy, you don't want that bar to slip.0 -
I was advised specifically NOT to grip the bar tightly by a world class lifter. He said the bar should hang in your hand with your fingers like a hook. This has been my approach and has worked for me through a 600 lb deadlift even with my tiny hands. I don't squeeze the bar. I would say find what works for you.0
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