Your food is no cleaner than mine

The only people here who boast & brag about their food are the "dirty eaters." I don't see clean eaters posting threads about "30 day spinach challenges" or "30 day apple challenges."

"Dirty eaters" are the only people here who try to push their diet beliefs on others.

Yes, you can eat cake and lose weight. Yes, you can eat Chipotle and lose weight. Yes, you can eat pizza and lose weight. The fact of the matter is there are plenty of people out there who simply don't want to incorporate those foods into their diet because 1) they don't have the willpower to do so, 2) it isn't worth the calories, and 3) it isn't worth the crappy feeling you experience afterward.

It's all fine and dandy that there are people here who can eat whatever the hell they want all while losing weight. But the reality is that not everyone is mentally capable of that. Not everyone is in the right frame of mind to do that. Telling someone who weighs 400 lbs and has a fast food obsession that it's fine for them to eat fast food during their weight loss initially is NOT going to go over well. This person needs to avoid fast food because they simply aren't ready to eat fast food in moderation yet. They don't know what moderation is because they've never counted calories or macros before.

That's where you "dirty eaters" go wrong.

Oh fatfree, I'm disappointed. Especially considering I consider you one of my most supportive friend yet I'm pretty sure I'm probably one of the "dirtiest eaters" on your friends list.

You are one of the "dirty eaters" on my FL. I have a lot of "dirty eaters" on my FL though. I don't shame you or them for eating cake, ice cream, cookies, bagels, etc. I think it's great. My problem is when people who eat "dirty" don't understand that not everyone is going to have the willpower to eat those foods in moderation. It is hard for many people to eat "dirty foods" in moderation, especially those who are new to calorie counting, like I said in my first post.

In general, when I find someone who is super stuck on the clean, pure, natural, holiness of their food, I assume they're, in some very solid way, substituting food for where ideas about sexual morality would be on their inner map.

As a species, we're a little fixated on attaching non-anxiety-producing meaning anything engulfed by a body part.

So, slap that in Freud's cigar and smoke it.


/end being above it all

You do know that Freud was crazy....right ?

... probably as a result of not eating clean.

I'm clearly not very convincing in my argument that the term "clean eating" is not a personal attack or judgment. Nor am I convincing in my argument that labels can be useful as a way to shortcut language. So, I'm out.

I too am tiring of the clean eating debate on MFP. From now on, instead of saying I'm a clean eater, I'm just going to say I'm a locavore. I'm sure someone on MFP will complain about that term as well :laugh:

The only people here who boast & brag about their food are the "dirty eaters." I don't see clean eaters posting threads about "30 day spinach challenges" or "30 day apple challenges."

"Dirty eaters" are the only people here who try to push their diet beliefs on others.

Yes, you can eat cake and lose weight. Yes, you can eat Chipotle and lose weight. Yes, you can eat pizza and lose weight. The fact of the matter is there are plenty of people out there who simply don't want to incorporate those foods into their diet because 1) they don't have the willpower to do so, 2) it isn't worth the calories, and 3) it isn't worth the crappy feeling you experience afterward.

It's all fine and dandy that there are people here who can eat whatever the hell they want all while losing weight. But the reality is that not everyone is mentally capable of that. Not everyone is in the right frame of mind to do that. Telling someone who weighs 400 lbs and has a fast food obsession that it's fine for them to eat fast food during their weight loss initially is NOT going to go over well. This person needs to avoid fast food because they simply aren't ready to eat fast food in moderation yet. They don't know what moderation is because they've never counted calories or macros before.

That's where you "dirty eaters" go wrong.

Thank you, I totally agree.

Some people have legitimate issues with moderating. I was just telling my husband about moderation today after he refused to eat a couple peanut butter crackers, then he finally just told me "look, I CAN'T just eat in moderation right now" - and I get it. I struggle too, it's why I'm here. You bring sweet food (sorry because I'm not allowed to say "junk food" I'm really not sure what to call it...I mean apples are sweet but that's not what I'm referring to) into the house and it's like this nervous tick in the back of my mind to get rid of it.

When I see someone on my friend's list eating "dirty" I don't think "wow that's disgusting, they should be ashamed"...I think "wow that's amazing, I wish I could eat that stuff and lose so much weight".

I've personally been searching for a very long time for something that works for me, because my body just doesn't respond well to carbs and sugar. I never claimed to be a clean eater (I'm far from it), but when I started Whole30 I heard plenty from people who somehow took personal offense to my choosing to try a different approach for 30 days. They made it a point to tell me all the ice cream and desserts they ate everyday and were still able to lose 100 lbs. Honestly, it made me feel like s*** because I'd been at it for over a year and only lost 50 lbs, so what was I doing wrong? (This is a rhetorical question, not looking for advice here btw).

I'm not for "clean" eaters bashing anyone either but isn't this thread doing the same thing on the opposite side? Saying that people are just jealous and lashing out because they can't eat a tub of ice cream everyday and stay fit like you can...so why are you lashing out at people calling it "clean"? If you have no problems with what you're eating and it's working for you, congratulations, be confident in it, and answer to no one.

*Edited to remove the word "junk food" from my post.

The original article really helped me put my finger on why I find 'clean' eaters so objectionable sometimes - usually I truly don't mind hearing about what people eat, especially when it's working for them long-term (one of those miraculous lifestyle changes we hear about).

I do mind, however, when people complain that they're eating clean but still not losing weight, or assume that I'm eating clean because I'm trying to lose weight. IMO, 'clean' is more of a marketing term. You can sell books based on the premise of clean-eating, your magazine will sell more if it contains clean recipes, and clean-eating websites can generate loads of ad revenue.

No one is making money on the eat-whatever-you-want-but-learn-portion-control and move-more and lift-heavy-so-you-can-eat-even-MORE diet. Yet.

Isn't that the premise of Jenny Craig? There's a few other diets taking this approach as well. Go through everydiet.org and you will find them.

Why not just call it food? I don't label my food, other than to say, "breakfast," "lunch," "dinner," "dessert," or "snack."

Balance is definitely relative to lifestyle, just as "yummy" food or "gross" food is relative to taste buds.

Because we label everything. Everything. Dinner is a label. Its what humans do to make sense of the world around them. Its how we know what we are looking at or for. Its how we decide on one thing versus another.

Dinner is a label for the food I eat during dinner time. There is no connotation to it.

It is still a label. Any connotation you apply to a label is your issue with the label. If what you eat matters not and labels are not important, why even label it dinner, why not just say my 3rd meal consisted of, or i ate XYZ after work? You do so, so people know you are talking abut the meal you eat later in the day, its easier, shorter and quicker. If i object to the label dinner for whatever reason i make up, it's my issue right? Same premise. I say i eat clean because its shorter and easier then explaining my diet in detail. Most rationally thinking people understand that means i cook at home using fresh raw whole food and don't buy premade foods or foods that have a lot of additives. My exact diet is not important. Just like what you eat for dinner isn't irrelevant to the phrase "i eat dinner at 6 everyday". But if asked you will explain it in more details.(I had this food for dinner. I do not eat xyz in my diet) And then if you happen to be on MFP, your choices get labeled as wrong and people demand you defend and explain them and then push their preferred method of diet on you. If it turns out in 20 years that added sugar really isn't unhealthy for you at all, then I am still not harming myself by avoiding it. Its still means i eat more healthier foods (like fresh veggies and fruit) and makes it easier to reach my goals.

The connotation is the difference. "Clean" has a plethora of connotation. "Dinner" has none at all.

Only because you assign it one... that was my point. You may replace the label dinner, with any label of your choosing that will help you understand my point..

Everyone assigns it a connotation, some differing more than others. Your point is moot.

which makes this entire conversation moot. I don't assign it a bad connotation. Just like i don't assign paleo or primal or WW etc a bad connotation. I don't agree with a bunch of those diets, but I don't view it as those people saying "i am superior to you because I eat chosen diet". If you do *that's your problem* not the person describing their diet.

I'm not going to sit here and type out a paragraph describing my diet, because it might offend you, when saying "i eat clean" does the same thing in 3 little words.

No, of course you don't. How silly. You are missing the point so much that you can't even get your own argument straight.

You assign it a "good" connotation, as in, "It's good to eat clean." I say, "Just call it dinner. Everybody has to eat."

You do know that Freud was crazy....right ?

Crazy =/= periodically addicted to cocaine.

You do know that Freud was crazy....right ?

Crazy =/= periodically addicted to cocaine.

Though long-term cocaine use can induce delusions, not to mention hallucinations and pre-occupation with sex.

In general, when I find someone who is super stuck on the clean, pure, natural, holiness of their food, I assume they're, in some very solid way, substituting food for where ideas about sexual morality would be on their inner map.

As a species, we're a little fixated on attaching non-anxiety-producing meaning anything engulfed by a body part.

So, slap that in Freud's cigar and smoke it.


/end being above it all

You do know that Freud was crazy....right ?

... probably as a result of not eating clean.

No way. He lived in Ye Olden Tymes. Surely, his food was all pure as the driven snow.

Oh, yes, that's the other "clean" thing, not to mention "paleo" thing. Modern food is killing us! Arg! Think of the children! There ought to be a law. blah, blah, blah

RIGHT. Before the TOXIC WHEAT and the OLEOMARGARINE!

The only people here who boast & brag about their food are the "dirty eaters." I don't see clean eaters posting threads about "30 day spinach challenges" or "30 day apple challenges."

"Dirty eaters" are the only people here who try to push their diet beliefs on others.

Yes, you can eat cake and lose weight. Yes, you can eat Chipotle and lose weight. Yes, you can eat pizza and lose weight. The fact of the matter is there are plenty of people out there who simply don't want to incorporate those foods into their diet because 1) they don't have the willpower to do so, 2) it isn't worth the calories, and 3) it isn't worth the crappy feeling you experience afterward.

It's all fine and dandy that there are people here who can eat whatever the hell they want all while losing weight. But the reality is that not everyone is mentally capable of that. Not everyone is in the right frame of mind to do that. Telling someone who weighs 400 lbs and has a fast food obsession that it's fine for them to eat fast food during their weight loss initially is NOT going to go over well. This person needs to avoid fast food because they simply aren't ready to eat fast food in moderation yet. They don't know what moderation is because they've never counted calories or macros before.

That's where you "dirty eaters" go wrong.

Oh fatfree, I'm disappointed. Especially considering I consider you one of my most supportive friend yet I'm pretty sure I'm probably one of the "dirtiest eaters" on your friends list.

You are one of the "dirty eaters" on my FL. I have a lot of "dirty eaters" on my FL though. I don't shame you or them for eating cake, ice cream, cookies, bagels, etc. I think it's great. My problem is when people who eat "dirty" don't understand that not everyone is going to have the willpower to eat those foods in moderation. It is hard for many people to eat "dirty foods" in moderation, especially those who are new to calorie counting, like I said in my first post.

I agree for many of us it is better to jusy cut out certain foods until we have a handle on the " moderation " concept. I don't like the assumption that as far as " dirty " food is concerned it is always about willpower or the lack of it. Clean eaters also have to practice willpower.
Why the assumption that all " delicious food " that should be eaten in moderation to lose weight must be bacon, hamburgers, pop tarts, pizza, ice cream, Chipotle and all the other stuff. I have yet to read a thread of anyone who had a cheat meal of home made whole wheat pasta Alfredo with broccoli and four-cheese sauce. They pack as many calories as " dirty " foods.
My not eating bacon, pizza, fast food and similar things is because I don't like them. I like other things better....but also have to stay away from them or use my will power, because I can easily overeat on them....rice and vegetables with cheese sauce, or cheese.......I stayed away from them for a year and now am trying to see if I got what it takes.....moderation wise.
Moderation is difficult for many of us, no matter if the food is dirty or clean.

I agree for many of us it is better to jusy cut out certain foods until we have a handle on the " moderation " concept. I don't like the assumption that as far as " dirty " food is concerned it is always about willpower or the lack of it. Clean eaters also have to practice willpower.

Agreed, but beyond this, I'm not sure why who is using the most willpower is a particularly good way to determine whose way is better. That actually falls somewhat into the trap of claiming more rigorous=better, which is related to food choices as evidence of virtue. IMO, the best diet is one that isn't hard, doesn't require will power all the time, because if you are succeeding by white knuckling on a regular basis, you aren't on a firm footing. I suspect both those successful with low carb or paleo or "clean" (ugh) type plans AND those successful with moderation type plans have found ways so that they enjoy how they are eating and feel like it's how they would generally choose to eat, not deprivation in any meaningful way. That's where I actually appreciate the focus on positive things like eating in a healthy way, celebrating the pleasures of nutrient dense foods, etc.--humans typically are more able to comply when they see what they are doing as adding a positive change vs. giving up something they love.

I have yet to read a thread of anyone who had a cheat meal of home made whole wheat pasta Alfredo with broccoli and four-cheese sauce.

I don't eat "cheat" meals, but that could be one of mine (well, okay, I wouldn't use whole wheat pasta). Surely people have lots of higher calorie, uh, special occasion meals that consist of homemade food. I had a whole menu for Easter that wasn't that extreme, but started with leg of lamb, roasted potatoes in the fat from the lamb, etc.

I think that sometimes any of us may be a little too touchy.
Sometimes, other people don't mean anything bad about us, and still we feel insulted.

This is a thing that's completely uncorrelated with dieting and food. It's just a thing that I noticed a lot... people that get offended by remarks (not mine) that I find completely harmless.

Also, I notice that if I fear for whatever reason to be judged, I usually end feeling that someone judged me... while if I'm completely confident in what I'm doing... that won't happen.

This is so true. I've found in RL talking about my choice, and my diet around certain others is very upsetting for them.

I also can relate, because there is a certain subject which I won't go into here, but when people start bragging about it, or talking about it, I am liable to get so upset I go to a bathroom and cry.

Only difference is diet, exercise and weight are within the control of most people, the issue that throws me off is not in my control at all, but that is completely beside the point. But in both cases the cray comes from internal issues and not the person mindlessly telling what to them is a harmless story, whether it's me talking about my low-carb meat pie or someone else never meaning to be offensive but chattering on about a topic that sets me off.

I'm so glad this got posted today ...

I can have my Jersey Tomato Pie pizza all for my husband and myself.... and then I can wash it down with my wine. And don't have to worry sharing it with Clean Eating folks.

I think you're okay, most clean eaters have the sense to stay away from the flame baiting threads - maybe they know what the outcome will be:

Out numbered and shouted down to!

I'm just a glutton for punishment!

To OP: Don't worry though I don't always buy organic! Does that give me brownie points in your book?? Oh wait, I don't need YOUR approval of what I put into my mouth and I sure as hell don't care what goes into yours. Sorry you think some of us are so judgy

Everyone is just trying to find a solution to a problem. Why is one way better than another? If it works for them -- good for them! I've never been a "clean" eater, but I would never call myself a dirty eater... that sounds gross. I'm going to try a clean diet, just to see what it is all about. If I don't like it... no one is holding a gun to my head forcing me to eat clean and I'll continue my journey.

Why must we all attack each others lifestyles -- when we all want the same thing?

Yes. We all want exactly the same thing. We're all here for the same reason . . .

Perhaps. Just maybe, people are sharing their tips for success however they define it. For me, that means continued strength gains balanced against not getting too much body fat while simultaneously minimizing the restrictions I put on myself. In other words, I want the most for the least. IIFYM allows me to focus on what matters without getting bogged down in pointless distinctions such as "clean" and debates about what that means. I can define my macro needs and I can find countless ways to satisfy them. It provides a well-reasoned answer to "can I eat this?"

What makes "I eat clean" more self-righteous than "Have some self control and willpower and eat in moderation?"

Why is it not food shaming to acknowledge that some foods are 80 foods and some are 20 foods?

Someone referenced a Snickers bar in this thread as the "20 %. I've seen Snickers defended as "just food" for the protein and healthy fats it contains. Why is it only food shaming or self-righteous when someone who uses the word clean says it? (Sorry I just can't take the term food shaming seriously, and I'm pretty anti-shame. If people can say food shame, I can say junk food or empty calories, dangit. Both of which I enjoy)

(Of course there are self-righteous clean eaters, and eat in moderation eaters, and everyone.)

I do agree that the word "clean eating" is not really definable due to user variance and should not be thought of as a distinct diet because of that. It's why others get confused when people say they eat Paleo but eat lots of cookies or cakes or candies, or people who say they are vegetarian but eat fish or poultry, or people who say they eat gluten free but don't count the favorite breakfast muffin ...