Hunting vs. Endangered Hunting
Replies
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there are no cons to hunting. im not a hunter, but i say hunt away and the whole endangered list is such a stupid thing anyway. Endangered lists is causing the entire drought in california.
You are not a hunter but you state "there are no cons to hunting" and don't get me started on the "endangered list" comment.
ohhhh i wont get your started.0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
There is no "probably" to it, pigs do survive on their own. In fact, they're the fastest species to become adapted to life in the wild after being captive. And once they're wild, they're mean f-ers. It's why the southern US has so many issues with feral boars, and the issue spreads farther north every year.0 -
Even some animals such as the elephant need to be hunted in some areas. Take for example, Botswana. Elephants in that country are overpopulated, and not only destroy crops, but are deforesting the country. The elephants will come in huge herds, pushing over trees to eat the tender leaves near the top....then move on to push over more. They trample and destroy farmers' fields and villagers gardens. In these poverty stricken areas, a hunter comes in from the United States, or wherever, bringing a huge amount of money into the economy. They pay a license fee, they pay the outfitter, and the trackers, who are local. When they kill an elephant, that is usually selected specifically because of its destructive nature......they immediately pay another huge fee that goes into the local economy. (often in excess of $50,000) Then, the local people typically are allowed to skin the elephant and they use all of its flesh for food....food that they would not otherwise have. The hunter gets the trophy, the excitement of the chase, and the memories of the hunt, and the environment and the local economy is boosted because of it.
This 100 %.
I had a friend of my family's, growing up, that was very wealthy and hunted large game in Africa every year. Whenever he went, they would direct him to destructive animals that were needed to be stopped. In his living room, he had a lion head from a rogue lion that had attacked 4 villagers. He hunted two elephants that were terrorizing villages. That was the only kind of large game that he hunted. He paid A LOT of money in order to hunt them, the locals got any resources from the animal, and he was either given the hide or the head or something else of that nature to bring home. No, not every large game hunter is like this, but I'm willing to bet that, if she's posting this stuff on Facebook and hasn't been arrested, yet, that is most certainly her case, as well.0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
There is no "probably" to it, pigs do survive on their own. In fact, they're the fastest species to become adapted to life in the wild after being captive. And once they're wild, they're mean f-ers. It's why the southern US has so many issues with feral boars, and the issue spreads farther north every year.
I'm aware, but not *all* of them would survive and likely not all breeds would do equally well, and they definitely would pose a major ecological threat as an invasive species menace.0 -
I think hunting any animal is disgusting...however I love animals and don't really like people so I probably have a different opinion than most.
Would you rather people hunt the animals, killing them fairly cleanly and quickly, or would you rather those animals overpopulate an area and die slow, painful deaths from starvation and disease?
Hunting is better for the sake of the species when regulated properly (poaching is a completely different matter).0 -
Who defines 'exotic'? All animals feel the same pain.0
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Who defines 'exotic'? All animals feel the same pain.
Nope, many animals don't even have the equipment necessary to experience what you or I interpret as pain, sponges for example.0 -
Who defines 'exotic'? All animals feel the same pain.
With my shot they feel no pain0 -
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
There is no "probably" to it, pigs do survive on their own. In fact, they're the fastest species to become adapted to life in the wild after being captive. And once they're wild, they're mean f-ers. It's why the southern US has so many issues with feral boars, and the issue spreads farther north every year.
I'm aware, but not *all* of them would survive and likely not all breeds would do equally well, and they definitely would pose a major ecological threat as an invasive species menace.
The context was the breeds used for livestock, which are the ones that are feral in the United States. And not even all wild animals, born and bred in the wild survive, so I'm not really sure what your point was on that...0 -
Who defines 'exotic'? All animals feel the same pain.
but theyre sooooo tasty.0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
A) Uh no, they are generally recognized as very intelligent creatures. I am not saying they are EQUAL to the intelligence nor in cognitive awareness as elephants. They are not.
Cows, nope? Oh okay. What that means. Sure.
C) Obviously, they will not be extinct any time soon. I agree with that.
D) Pigs could probably survive on their own? Sus scrofa take over- yeah they are more than apt at survival and adaptation.
E) I am not saying they are the same set of circumstances and the same situation...I am just saying the similar ethical considerations should be applied even to the familiar. Ethics are broad spectrum and it just seems that people overlook what is so closely under their nose to morn a more obscure issue.
F) My dog is the smartest thing ever. Likely smarter than most people. Period. (My made up but I believe it) Fact.
G) I am not personally attacking you nor any of your statement.0 -
Kendall clearly stated she was assisting in conservation efforts when these photos were taken. People that live in cities and only see animals in the zoo will have a different perspective than people that live in the country, hunt for their own food, and protect their own livestock. She is practicing responsible hunting by obtaining permits and that money goes back to the community that she is already helping protect by eliminating a predator.0
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any kind of hunting is pretty pathetic and disgusting
my dad is a hunter so I grew up with it and have been around it my entire life
zero respect for it0 -
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
There is no "probably" to it, pigs do survive on their own. In fact, they're the fastest species to become adapted to life in the wild after being captive. And once they're wild, they're mean f-ers. It's why the southern US has so many issues with feral boars, and the issue spreads farther north every year.
I'm aware, but not *all* of them would survive and likely not all breeds would do equally well, and they definitely would pose a major ecological threat as an invasive species menace.
The context was the breeds used for livestock, which are the ones that are feral in the United States. And not even all wild animals, born and bred in the wild survive, so I'm not really sure what your point was on that...
There are dozens of different breeds used for livestock, each of which has undergone significant change from the wild state due to selective breeding processes. You're basic domestic pig is fairly different from the ancestral wild boars they came from. So stating that some breeds will likely do better than others is hardly outlandish.0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
I bet if you made bacon out of elephants, everyone would just STFU....
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any kind of hunting is pretty pathetic and disgusting
my dad is a hunter so I grew up with it and have been around it my entire life
zero respect for it
if your Homo erectus ancestors hadn't hunted, you wouldn't be here as Homo sapiens wouldn't have evolved.0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
I bet if you made bacon out of elephants, everyone would just STFU....
...could you imagine the size of that slice of bacon?!?
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I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
A) Uh no, they are generally recognized as very intelligent creatures. I am not saying they are EQUAL to the intelligence nor in cognitive awareness as elephants. They are not. Cows, nope? Oh okay. What that means. Sure.
C) Obviously, they will not be extinct any time soon. I agree with that.
D) Pigs could probably survive on their own? Sus scrofa take over- yeah they are more than apt at survival and adaptation.
E) I am not saying they are the same set of circumstances and the same situation...I am just saying the similar ethical considerations should be applied even to the familiar. Ethics are broad spectrum and it just seems that people overlook what is so closely under their nose to morn a more obscure issue.
F) My dog is the smartest thing ever. Likely smarter than most people. Period. (My made up but I believe it) Fact.
G) I am not personally attacking you nor any of your statement.
I suspect you and I are arguing around the same point but from slightly different angles. Pork tweaks my ethical clause, but I've drawn my will not eat line at sentience and they don't meet that marker so I enjoy my bacon with only mild twinges of guilt.0 -
I don't really understand trophy hunting.
Good job - you murdered an animal to decorate your home. You're so cool.
Hunting for food, and population control, I have no issue with.
My whole family is avid hunters and yes, we have hunted exotics before. We eat the meat from these animals, not just hang their head on the wall. It is a way of life that we prefer and feel that it is better for our kids to be out hunting and fishing then it is for them to be running the streets. Just my opinion.
Yes, there are some people who hunt just for the trophy of it BUT what many people don't know is that there are programs that allow you to donate the meat of the animals you hunted for trophy to the homeless. Many places that process the meat (although we process our own at home) will take the animal for donation whole, process it, and then donate it to homeless shelters.
People who are hunting "endangered exotics" are not doing it illegally. You can obtain tags for them. Normally you can only shoot older ones who are no longer useful to the community of animals, etc. Some of the animals get so old that they can't breed any longer but won't allow younger males to mate with the females. This doesn't help when the species is endangered so therefore, tags are issued to deal with the issue.0 -
I know you are most probably trolling but here are some cons from the human perspective...there are no cons to hunting. im not a hunter, but i say hunt away and the whole endangered list is such a stupid thing anyway. Endangered lists is causing the entire drought in california.
You are not a hunter but you state "there are no cons to hunting" and don't get me started on the "endangered list" comment.
ohhhh i wont get your started.
How many childhood hunting accidents are there? That is hard to say, as there doesn't seem to be a national database with hunting accident statistics.
To get more recent hunting accident statistics, you will likely have to go to each state's wildlife conservation agency and try to find it.
a 14-year-old in Stow Creek Township, New Jersey who was unintentionally shot in the face by his father while they were hunting deer.
a 14-year-old in Taylorsville, South Carolina who suffered potentially life-threatening injuries after he was unintentionally by a friend while dove hunting.
a 16-year-old in Houston, Texas who was shot in the groin while hunting, after his father had mistaken him for a deer.
a 13-year-old in Tuscaloosa, Alabama who died after he was unintentionally shot at a hunting club after a rabbit hunt. A gun, which the hunters thought was unloaded, accidentally went off as it was being put away.
a 12-year-old in Wake Forest, North Carolina who died after he was unintentionally shot while hunting deer with his father, step-brother, and uncle.
a 13-year-old in Lamar County, Texas who died after he was unintentionally shot when the 9-year-old he was hunting with tripped and fell, causing his rifle to fire.
a 15-year-old Amish girl who died in what is described as a freak accident - a man returning from hunting deer, and who was about 1.5 miles away, shot his rifle into the air before cleaning it and the bullet landed in the girl's buggy, hitting her in the head
two teens who were accidentally shot at a middle school in South Texas, paralyzing one student and critically injuring the other, with the shots likely coming from hunters or target shooters on land near the rural school.
a 15-year-old boy in Kentucky who was killed while deer hunting with his grandfather - he was shot in the chest by another hunter.
a 14-year-old boy in Ohio who was shot in the abdomen by another 14-year-old while they were deer hunting with three adults.
a 14-year-old boy in California who was shot and killed by a teenage cousin while they were hunting deer with the boy's uncle, a local hunting safety instructor.
a hunter in New York who missed a deer and hit a school bus, coming close to hitting the school bus driver and a student.
a West Virginia teenager who died when his father's rifle accidentally discharged as he was unloading it after a day of deer hunting.
a 14-year-old in Pennsylvania who was shot in the leg as he was getting into a tree stand and his shotgun accidentally went off.
an 8-year-old in North Carolina who died while hunting for squirrels after one of his friends tripped while carrying a rifle and it fired and hit the boy.
Keep in mind that these incidents don't include the perhaps even more common scenario of when a child or teen unintentionally shoots an adult in his hunting party. This happened recently when a 12-year-old shot a man he was hunting with in Iowa when his shotgun accidentally went off.
source:http://pediatrics.about.com/od/accidents/a/hunting-accidents.htm
As far as the endangered animals comment, yes culling is sometimes necessary to maintain an ecosystem but rarely will it be an endangered animal but educating you on the subject of biodiversity and ecosystems is a waste of my time as I am sure you have already developed an opinion about such matters.
FYI: it's "you started" not "your started"0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
A) Uh no, they are generally recognized as very intelligent creatures. I am not saying they are EQUAL to the intelligence nor in cognitive awareness as elephants. They are not. Cows, nope? Oh okay. What that means. Sure.
C) Obviously, they will not be extinct any time soon. I agree with that.
D) Pigs could probably survive on their own? Sus scrofa take over- yeah they are more than apt at survival and adaptation.
E) I am not saying they are the same set of circumstances and the same situation...I am just saying the similar ethical considerations should be applied even to the familiar. Ethics are broad spectrum and it just seems that people overlook what is so closely under their nose to morn a more obscure issue.
F) My dog is the smartest thing ever. Likely smarter than most people. Period. (My made up but I believe it) Fact.
G) I am not personally attacking you nor any of your statement.
I suspect you and I are arguing around the same point but from slightly different angles. Pork tweaks my ethical clause, but I've drawn my will not eat line at sentience and they don't meet that marker so I enjoy my bacon with only mild twinges of guilt.
*high fives about the common grounding of bacon deliciousness and occasional suppression of moral coding*0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
A) Uh no, they are generally recognized as very intelligent creatures. I am not saying they are EQUAL to the intelligence nor in cognitive awareness as elephants. They are not. Cows, nope? Oh okay. What that means. Sure.
C) Obviously, they will not be extinct any time soon. I agree with that.
D) Pigs could probably survive on their own? Sus scrofa take over- yeah they are more than apt at survival and adaptation.
E) I am not saying they are the same set of circumstances and the same situation...I am just saying the similar ethical considerations should be applied even to the familiar. Ethics are broad spectrum and it just seems that people overlook what is so closely under their nose to morn a more obscure issue.
F) My dog is the smartest thing ever. Likely smarter than most people. Period. (My made up but I believe it) Fact.
G) I am not personally attacking you nor any of your statement.
I suspect you and I are arguing around the same point but from slightly different angles. Pork tweaks my ethical clause, but I've drawn my will not eat line at sentience and they don't meet that marker so I enjoy my bacon with only mild twinges of guilt.
*high fives about the common grounding of bacon deliciousness and occasional suppression of moral coding*
:drinker:0 -
hunting is disgusting and people call it "sport" unless you go after whatever animal on your own two feet with a knife wtf sport is there in shooting something???
I can sorta understand if the hunters are actually eating the meat themselves instead of going to the shops or grabbing a burger and are using all parts of the animal. Same with the likes of when for example there are too many male lions and they are hurting eachother, the females, cubs etc ...
I cant understand why you would want to kill something for any other reason its still a sin to me for the above reasons but to hunt something endangered deserves for the fun of it deserves your head on a spike in my opinion
bring on the hate lol0 -
any kind of hunting is pretty pathetic and disgusting
my dad is a hunter so I grew up with it and have been around it my entire life
zero respect for it
if your Homo erectus ancestors hadn't hunted, you wouldn't be here as Homo sapiens wouldn't have evolved.
when it was necessary sure
however as evolved beings there is absolutely no reason other than human arrogance and entitlement to murder animals
especially with all the special blinds, clothes, weapons, calls and fancy **** people use to go hide from animals and then shoot at them kill em skin em mount them on their wall and slap them on the plate ...so much pride over murder its disgusting to me
its very unnecessary unless you are maybe dying in the middle of a forest alone or some island some where0 -
hunting is disgusting and people call it "sport" unless you go after whatever animal on your own two feet with a knife wtf sport is there in shooting something???
I can sorta understand if the hunters are actually eating the meat themselves instead of going to the shops or grabbing a burger and are using all parts of the animal. Same with the likes of when for example there are too many male lions and they are hurting eachother, the females, cubs etc ...
I cant understand why you would want to kill something for any other reason its still a sin to me for the above reasons but to hunt something endangered deserves for the fun of it deserves your head on a spike in my opinion
bring on the hate lol
we are too busy laughing to hate.0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
A) Uh no, they are generally recognized as very intelligent creatures. I am not saying they are EQUAL to the intelligence nor in cognitive awareness as elephants. They are not. Cows, nope? Oh okay. What that means. Sure.
C) Obviously, they will not be extinct any time soon. I agree with that.
D) Pigs could probably survive on their own? Sus scrofa take over- yeah they are more than apt at survival and adaptation.
E) I am not saying they are the same set of circumstances and the same situation...I am just saying the similar ethical considerations should be applied even to the familiar. Ethics are broad spectrum and it just seems that people overlook what is so closely under their nose to morn a more obscure issue.
F) My dog is the smartest thing ever. Likely smarter than most people. Period. (My made up but I believe it) Fact.
G) I am not personally attacking you nor any of your statement.
I suspect you and I are arguing around the same point but from slightly different angles. Pork tweaks my ethical clause, but I've drawn my will not eat line at sentience and they don't meet that marker so I enjoy my bacon with only mild twinges of guilt.
can you link me to all the studies on this? I'm really interested in this topic, usually in relation to humans, human ancestors and species that are closely related to humans but I'm also interested in the topic generally. I've not seen any specific studies in sentience on apes, just a whole lot on language and other aspects of cognition. I've seen scientific discussions on the question of awareness of life and death - mostly related to archaeological evidence for deliberate burial and ritual disposal of the dead in early human species.... and chimpanzees and bonobos grieve for dead loved ones (some real tearjerker clips on you tube of mother chimpanzees and bonobos parting with dead infants
) and recognise each other as individuals (I think most higher primates recognise each other as individuals).... but nothing specific on sentience that I can recall (maybe it was covered at uni and I forgot about it..)
anyway I'm genuinely curious about this (I know stuff gets misconstrued on the internet and usually people ask for research papers to make someone prove a point when debating, but I'm really just very curious and not trying to argue at all)0 -
I think hunting any animal is disgusting...however I love animals and don't really like people so I probably have a different opinion than most.
Honestly, when we hunt it is much more humane than what goes on in slaughter houses. One good, clean shot versus being shocked into paralysis and then having their throat slit. Sorry, just my honest opinion.
Plus, if people didn't hunt, vegetarians gardens would be overrun with these animals.0 -
I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.
Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.
Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...
I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.
Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.
A) Uh no, they are generally recognized as very intelligent creatures. I am not saying they are EQUAL to the intelligence nor in cognitive awareness as elephants. They are not. Cows, nope? Oh okay. What that means. Sure.
C) Obviously, they will not be extinct any time soon. I agree with that.
D) Pigs could probably survive on their own? Sus scrofa take over- yeah they are more than apt at survival and adaptation.
E) I am not saying they are the same set of circumstances and the same situation...I am just saying the similar ethical considerations should be applied even to the familiar. Ethics are broad spectrum and it just seems that people overlook what is so closely under their nose to morn a more obscure issue.
F) My dog is the smartest thing ever. Likely smarter than most people. Period. (My made up but I believe it) Fact.
G) I am not personally attacking you nor any of your statement.
I suspect you and I are arguing around the same point but from slightly different angles. Pork tweaks my ethical clause, but I've drawn my will not eat line at sentience and they don't meet that marker so I enjoy my bacon with only mild twinges of guilt.
can you link me to all the studies on this? I'm really interested in this topic, usually in relation to humans, human ancestors and species that are closely related to humans but I'm also interested in the topic generally. I've not seen any specific studies in sentience on apes, just a whole lot on language and other aspects of cognition. I've seen scientific discussions on the question of awareness of life and death - mostly related to archaeological evidence for deliberate burial and ritual disposal of the dead in early human species.... and chimpanzees and bonobos grieve for dead loved ones (some real tearjerker clips on you tube of mother chimpanzees and bonobos parting with dead infants ) and recognise each other as individuals (I think most higher primates recognise each other as individuals).... but nothing specific on sentience that I can recall (maybe it was covered at uni and I forgot about it..)
anyway I'm genuinely curious about this (I know stuff gets misconstrued on the internet and usually people ask for research papers to make someone prove a point when debating, but I'm really just very curious and not trying to argue at all)
Are you looking for the information pertaining to the sentience of elephants?
If so, I would look into their communicative studies, often that information is hiding within there.
Also, there was an elephant named "Happy" as I recall her study was the first one giving evidence that an elephant was able to recognize herself in a mirror. I am sure if you google machine her name you will find some of that information.
There are a few great studies with the greater apes...one specifically about ape rape. Not kidding my jaw dropped upon reading it, but that was months ago. It is a negative component to such awareness.
I would like to give you more specific citations but at the moment I am unable to look further.
EDIT**Excuse the typos I am junk at touch screen anything.0 -
its called MANAGEMENT
guns don't kill people, people kill people
accidents happen, that's why they call them accidents. Phones should not be in the car when you are driving. no one should eat and drive. no one should handle the radio while driving.
Ever been to Africa? Over populated elephants decimate villages.
no hunting? great idea, lets let the wild game overpopulate and starve.
What does that mean, Endangered hunting? Actual endangered species are not "allowed" to be hunted. I would never kill a predator, but overpopulated predators aren't any better off than any other overpopulated animal. Game management helps everyone.
I am so not looking forward to the haters, so don't hate me. Man has been hunting since the beginning of time.
It's fascinating the way people judge each other...0 -
any kind of hunting is pretty pathetic and disgusting
my dad is a hunter so I grew up with it and have been around it my entire life
zero respect for it
if your Homo erectus ancestors hadn't hunted, you wouldn't be here as Homo sapiens wouldn't have evolved.
when it was necessary sure
however as evolved beings there is absolutely no reason other than human arrogance and entitlement to murder animals
especially with all the special blinds, clothes, weapons, calls and fancy **** people use to go hide from animals and then shoot at them kill em skin em mount them on their wall and slap them on the plate ...so much pride over murder its disgusting to me
its very unnecessary unless you are maybe dying in the middle of a forest alone or some island some where
there are quite a few hunter-gatherer populations remaining in some remote parts of the world - in a lot of cases their entire way of life is under threat, including by narrow-minded conservationists that want to ban all humans from hunting. Never mind that they've hunted sustainably in the places they live for tens of thousands of years.
I seriously object to your blanket statements about hunters.
I don't agree with hunting for trophy only if the meat is not going to be eaten, or if it's not necessary for conservation (e.g. culling populations to prevent overpopulation, which will in the end harm the very population you're culling) or protecting other populations (e.g. killing a wolf that's done unprovoked attacks on humans). But that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with ecologically sustainable hunting for food, whether you're from a hunter-gatherer population or an agricultural or industrial population. So to answer the question regarding endangered species - if it's likely to lead to an animal's extinction, then no, because that's not sustainable.
Also, hunted meat v farmed meat... I don't see much difference except that you know the wild animal lived free for its whole life instead of in a farm... there are plenty of farms that treat their animals humanely as well as many that don't. So I'm not against farmed meat either, but farmers do have a responsibility to treat animals ethically. And while I respect the choices of people as individuals who choose to be vegetarian, it's not possible for the whole world to go vegetarian. Humans are omnivores, not herbivores.0
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