Hunting vs. Endangered Hunting

I am not a hunter, but have no issue with it in general when it is done as part of a responsible population management system. I do, however, find it interesting that Ernest Hemingway was uncomfortable hunting Elephants specifically because of his perception of their intelligence, and I would trust him to be something of an expert on big game hunting. From the perspective of the sciences, he was ahead of his time on this.

Elephants are one of the few species most behaviorists acknowledge as having very advanced intelligence, likely signaling being self aware. In other words, there is evidence they mourn the loss of their family and are aware of what is happening to them at an individual level. There is advanced communication between individuals including subsonic signalling used to communicate through vibrations sent through the ground over vast distances that wasn't even discovered until very recently. To me, the killing of species at that level of intelligence creates an added level of ethical dilemma well beyond the general consideration of endangered species status.

Cows have been shown to morn. And pigs are known to be one of the smartest animals...

I guess they must be tastier to most people than general ethics.

Pigs are borderline on intelligence, they're definitely more intelligent than your dog, but don't come close on sentience scales. Cows, nope. And both of those species are in absolutely no danger of extinction due to the fact that they have been domesticated. Pigs probably could survive on their own without human intervention, cows would probably be in trouble. So no matter how you want to break it down, cows and pigs represent and entirely different set of circumstances than the hunting of wild elephants.

A) Uh no, they are generally recognized as very intelligent creatures. I am not saying they are EQUAL to the intelligence nor in cognitive awareness as elephants. They are not.
Cows, nope? Oh okay. What that means. Sure.
C) Obviously, they will not be extinct any time soon. I agree with that.
D) Pigs could probably survive on their own? Sus scrofa take over- yeah they are more than apt at survival and adaptation.
E) I am not saying they are the same set of circumstances and the same situation...I am just saying the similar ethical considerations should be applied even to the familiar. Ethics are broad spectrum and it just seems that people overlook what is so closely under their nose to morn a more obscure issue.
F) My dog is the smartest thing ever. Likely smarter than most people. Period. (My made up but I believe it) Fact.
G) I am not personally attacking you nor any of your statement.

I suspect you and I are arguing around the same point but from slightly different angles. Pork tweaks my ethical clause, but I've drawn my will not eat line at sentience and they don't meet that marker so I enjoy my bacon with only mild twinges of guilt.

can you link me to all the studies on this? I'm really interested in this topic, usually in relation to humans, human ancestors and species that are closely related to humans but I'm also interested in the topic generally. I've not seen any specific studies in sentience on apes, just a whole lot on language and other aspects of cognition. I've seen scientific discussions on the question of awareness of life and death - mostly related to archaeological evidence for deliberate burial and ritual disposal of the dead in early human species.... and chimpanzees and bonobos grieve for dead loved ones (some real tearjerker clips on you tube of mother chimpanzees and bonobos parting with dead infants ) and recognise each other as individuals (I think most higher primates recognise each other as individuals).... but nothing specific on sentience that I can recall (maybe it was covered at uni and I forgot about it..)

anyway I'm genuinely curious about this (I know stuff gets misconstrued on the internet and usually people ask for research papers to make someone prove a point when debating, but I'm really just very curious and not trying to argue at all)

Are you looking for the information pertaining to the sentience on elephants?

If so, I would look into their communicative studies, often that information is hiding within there.
Also, there was an elephant named "Happy" as I recall her study was the first one giving evidence that an elephant was able to recognize herself in a mirror. I am sure if you google machine her name you will find some of that information.

There are a few great studies with the greater apes...one specifically about ape rape. Not kidding my jaw dropped upon reading it, but that was months ago. It is a negative component to such awareness.

I would like to give you more specific citations but at the moment I am unable to look further.

Yes, sentience specifically.... I've seen quite a few language studies and studies on apes recognising themselves in mirrors. none of the studies I saw commented specifically on sentience... is there a criteria by which animals are considered to be sentient? I'm pretty sure all the great apes would meet those criteria. But I'm also interested in how other species like whales, dolphins and elephants compare with great apes.... and pigs for that matter (going back to the comment that pigs come close but are not quite sentient.... i.e. what pigs can and can't do that makes for that conclusion)... it's easy to recognise apes as individuals with their own minds based on how they communicate and their similarity to humans... that's why it's interesting to see how these studies go with less closely related species.

ETA: I just looked it up on wikipedia, there's a lot there, and it may be wikipedia but it's a start (i.e. links with references to specific studies)

"I have always tempered my killing with respect for the game pursued. I see the animal not only as a target, but as a living creature with more freedom than I will ever have. I take that life if I can, with regret as well as joy, with the sure knowledge that nature's ways of fangs and claw or exposure and starvation are a far crueler fate than I can bestow." ~ Fred Bear

Until you have put in the time scouting the animals' habitat and behavioural patterns, worked tireless hours on the land to provide hunting opportunities for yourself/friends/family, gotten up before dawn in the freezing cold, hiked miles over treacherous terrain to your blind, tree stand, or otherwise, sat for hours waiting on your harvest, taken the time to make a clean and ethical kill shot over an animal with hundreds or thousands of years of evolutionary adaptation to overcome any scent killer, camo, or other perceived tool in a hunter's toolbox, field dressed the animal with your own two hands, dragged the animal back out, waited to process the animal either yourself or through a meat processing service, and then cooked a delicious meal full of nature's perfect protein yourself, you wouldn't understand.

You're dang right I'm proud when I harvest an animal. I can't say this for every hunter, but I'm picky and ethical in my selection of kill shots; I won't take the shot unless I'm as sure as I can be that I can bring the animal down in minimal pain. Trust me, NO hunter wants to track a long blood trail...

On the topic of pain, the last deer I harvested with my bow literally didn't even run away after I put a perfect shot through both lungs and clipped it's aorta. It meandered along, became faint, fell over, and expired in the bushes not 20 yards from where I made the shot.

If you're vegetarian or vegan or whatever, more power to you. I fully support your right to eat veggies and greens until your heart is content. However, don't tell me that the deer (or fish, or other wild animal) I harvest is any less ethical than the cows/pigs/chickens that are farmed in terrible conditions, force fed into animal obesity, and slaughtered without ever experiencing freedom. I prefer free-range, organic, or hunted meat whenever possible...yet I'm losing no sleep over why animals were put here in the first place.

any kind of hunting is pretty pathetic and disgusting

my dad is a hunter so I grew up with it and have been around it my entire life

zero respect for it

if your Homo erectus ancestors hadn't hunted, you wouldn't be here as Homo sapiens wouldn't have evolved.

when it was necessary sure

however as evolved beings there is absolutely no reason other than human arrogance and entitlement to murder animals

especially with all the special blinds, clothes, weapons, calls and fancy **** people use to go hide from animals and then shoot at them kill em skin em mount them on their wall and slap them on the plate ...so much pride over murder its disgusting to me

its very unnecessary unless you are maybe dying in the middle of a forest alone or some island some where

there are quite a few hunter-gatherer populations remaining in some remote parts of the world - in a lot of cases their entire way of life is under threat, including by narrow-minded conservationists that want to ban all humans from hunting. Never mind that they've hunted sustainably in the places they live for tens of thousands of years.

I seriously object to your blanket statements about hunters. Just because you knew a bunch of hunters that did stuff you didn't like doesn't mean they're all like that.

I don't agree with hunting for trophy only if the meat is not going to be eaten, or if it's not necessary for conservation (e.g. culling populations to prevent overpopulation, which will in the end harm the very population you're culling) or protecting other populations (e.g. killing a wolf that's done unprovoked attacks on humans). But that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with ecologically sustainable hunting for food, whether you're from a hunter-gatherer population or an agricultural or industrial population. So to answer the question regarding endangered species - if it's likely to lead to an animal's extinction, then no, because that's not sustainable.

Also, hunted meat v farmed meat... I don't see much difference except that you know the wild animal lived free for its whole life instead of in a farm... there are plenty of farms that treat their animals humanely as well as many that don't. So I'm not against farmed meat either, but farmers do have a responsibility to treat animals ethically. And while I respect the choices of people as individuals who choose to be vegetarian, it's not possible for the whole world to go vegetarian. Humans are omnivores, not herbivores.

I have heard all his before and do not care
at all

my blanket statement is how I feel and it will never change hunting as it is especially in North America (which is the kind of hunting being discussed in this thread) is arrogant , pathetic and disgusting

Okay well that's nice of you to consider the remaining hunter-gatherer societies as "arrogant, pathetic and disgusting" (that's what your blanket statement implies, by virtue of it being a blanket statement)......... even though their way of life is exponentially more sustainable and doing way less ecological damage than the industrial west....

It's fascinating the way people judge each other...

It really is. And I find it amazing that, in my personal experience with people I know first hand, the people that have the moral and ethical problems with kiling animals are the ones that support abortion and are pro-choice. Don't kill animals, but its ok to kill a child. It makes no sense at all to me....but to each his/her own I guess.

Now, pass the venison and lets go make out on my zebra rug......

I'm against killing animals but am absolutely pro-choice. I love animals, I really don't care about people or what they want/don't want to do to their offspring...it makes sense to me and I guess that's all that matters.

So, if I have kids, and decide I don't want them anymore, you think its ok to kill them? Just do not kill animals? O....K.

Backs slowly away.....

However, don't tell me that the deer (or fish, or other wild animal) I harvest is any less ethical than the cows/pigs/chickens that are farmed in terrible conditions, force fed into animal obesity, and slaughtered without ever experiencing freedom. I prefer free-range, organic, or hunted meat whenever possible...yet I'm losing no sleep over why animals were put here in the first place.

You. I like you.

Hunting is not a sport. In a sport, both teams know they're playing the game. You have a gun and are shooting a defenseless animal. But hey, props to you.

Disgusting.

It's fascinating the way people judge each other...

It really is. And I find it amazing that, in my personal experience with people I know first hand, the people that have the moral and ethical problems with kiling animals are the ones that support abortion and are pro-choice. Don't kill animals, but its ok to kill a child. It makes no sense at all to me....but to each his/her own I guess.

Now, pass the venison and lets go make out on my zebra rug......

I'm against killing animals but am absolutely pro-choice. I love animals, I really don't care about people or what they want/don't want to do to their offspring...it makes sense to me and I guess that's all that matters.

So, if I have kids, and decide I don't want them anymore, you think its ok to kill them? Just do not kill animals? O....K.

Backs slowly away.....

Pretty much...do what you want to your own kids...I really don't care. I like animals so I have compassion for them, I don't like most people therefore I don't care about them. I'm very aware that my opinion is an unpopular one but that's fine... I never asked anyone to agree with me or understand it.

you're not insane at all. *backs away slowly.

It's fascinating the way people judge each other...

It really is. And I find it amazing that, in my personal experience with people I know first hand, the people that have the moral and ethical problems with kiling animals are the ones that support abortion and are pro-choice. Don't kill animals, but its ok to kill a child. It makes no sense at all to me....but to each his/her own I guess.

Now, pass the venison and lets go make out on my zebra rug......

I'm against killing animals but am absolutely pro-choice. I love animals, I really don't care about people or what they want/don't want to do to their offspring...it makes sense to me and I guess that's all that matters.

So, if I have kids, and decide I don't want them anymore, you think its ok to kill them? Just do not kill animals? O....K.

Backs slowly away.....

Pretty much...do what you want to your own kids...I really don't care. I like animals so I have compassion for them, I don't like most people therefore I don't care about them. I'm very aware that my opinion is an unpopular one but that's fine... I never asked anyone to agree with me or understand it.

I have a feeling we will be seeing you on the national news some day.....

Even some animals such as the elephant need to be hunted in some areas. Take for example, Botswana. Elephants in that country are overpopulated, and not only destroy crops, but are deforesting the country. The elephants will come in huge herds, pushing over trees to eat the tender leaves near the top....then move on to push over more. They trample and destroy farmers' fields and villagers gardens. In these poverty stricken areas, a hunter comes in from the United States, or wherever, bringing a huge amount of money into the economy. They pay a license fee, they pay the outfitter, and the trackers, who are local. When they kill an elephant, that is usually selected specifically because of its destructive nature......they immediately pay another huge fee that goes into the local economy. (often in excess of $50,000) Then, the local people typically are allowed to skin the elephant and they use all of its flesh for food....food that they would not otherwise have. The hunter gets the trophy, the excitement of the chase, and the memories of the hunt, and the environment and the local economy is boosted because of it.

By this logic we should start hunting humans...aren't we the most destructive animals of all? We destroy much more of the enviroment than any other animal on the planet and push all the other species around as we please. Just playing devils advocate...

"I have always tempered my killing with respect for the game pursued. I see the animal not only as a target, but as a living creature with more freedom than I will ever have. I take that life if I can, with regret as well as joy, with the sure knowledge that nature's ways of fangs and claw or exposure and starvation are a far crueler fate than I can bestow." ~ Fred Bear

Until you have put in the time scouting the animals' habitat and behavioural patterns, worked tireless hours on the land to provide hunting opportunities for yourself/friends/family, gotten up before dawn in the freezing cold, hiked miles over treacherous terrain to your blind, tree stand, or otherwise, sat for hours waiting on your harvest, taken the time to make a clean and ethical kill shot over an animal with hundreds or thousands of years of evolutionary adaptation to overcome any scent killer, camo, or other perceived tool in a hunter's toolbox, field dressed the animal with your own two hands, dragged the animal back out, waited to process the animal either yourself or through a meat processing service, and then cooked a delicious meal full of nature's perfect protein yourself, you wouldn't understand.

You're dang right I'm proud when I harvest an animal. I can't say this for every hunter, but I'm picky and ethical in my selection of kill shots; I won't take the shot unless I'm as sure as I can be that I can bring the animal down in minimal pain. Trust me, NO hunter wants to track a long blood trail...

On the topic of pain, the last deer I harvested with my bow literally didn't even run away after I put a perfect shot through both lungs and clipped it's aorta. It meandered along, became faint, fell over, and expired in the bushes not 20 yards from where I made the shot.

If you're vegetarian or vegan or whatever, more power to you. I fully support your right to eat veggies and greens until your heart is content. However, don't tell me that the deer (or fish, or other wild animal) I harvest is any less ethical than the cows/pigs/chickens that are farmed in terrible conditions, force fed into animal obesity, and slaughtered without ever experiencing freedom. I prefer free-range, organic, or hunted meat whenever possible...yet I'm losing no sleep over why animals were put here in the first place.

animal hunt each other, so they must be disgusting too







this is disgusting because he is hunting

It's fascinating the way people judge each other...

It really is. And I find it amazing that, in my personal experience with people I know first hand, the people that have the moral and ethical problems with kiling animals are the ones that support abortion and are pro-choice. Don't kill animals, but its ok to kill a child. It makes no sense at all to me....but to each his/her own I guess.

Now, pass the venison and lets go make out on my zebra rug......

I'm against killing animals but am absolutely pro-choice. I love animals, I really don't care about people or what they want/don't want to do to their offspring...it makes sense to me and I guess that's all that matters.

So, if I have kids, and decide I don't want them anymore, you think its ok to kill them? Just do not kill animals? O....K.

Backs slowly away.....

Pretty much...do what you want to your own kids...I really don't care. I like animals so I have compassion for them, I don't like most people therefore I don't care about them. I'm very aware that my opinion is an unpopular one but that's fine... I never asked anyone to agree with me or understand it.

how do you feel about infanticide in animals? e.g. lions or baboons killing the offspring of the pride/troop upon taking it over? Studies have shown that female baboons with infants experience a high level of stress and anxiety when an outsider male takes over the troop because she knows he's probably going to kill her baby.

I like primates generally, but I think baboons are evil little *****. I know they're not clever enough to know any better (but they are damn clever for a monkey species) but they are nasty and I'm really glad I'm not a baboon. I like how apes, humans and bonobos especially, have evolved compassion and empathy, in spite of having a common ancestor with baboons.

Just in conclusion to my previous statements, I had no desire to argue the ethical points of hunting, dietary preferences (omnivore/vegan) etc I just found the statement concerning "there are no cons to hunting" by a self-professed non-hunter to be both ignorant and arrogant...be you for or against hunting I am sure you can see the ridiculous nature of the statement.

Concerning the accidents I posted, yes accidents happen in every aspect of life no doubt about it! but I was just illustrating some very real cons to show the absurdity of the statement.

Personally I try to stay away from debates such as this as people have different moral/ethical codes that are driven by many factors be it emotional, logical etc.

Reminds me of what someone wrote on their feed the other day "You may have the right to an opinion, but I do not have to respect the opinion because you have the right to it!"

an accident is not a "con" to hunting. When you say pros or cons it is directly related to the hunting or killing of animals. Your saying there would be a con to driving a car is you would die in an accident. CMon dude.

but that is one of the major cons of driving a car... the possibility of being in an accident..... cons don't mean "never do something because of this" they mean "possible negative thing that you may have to take steps to avoid" - as in I drive a car regularly but it has an airbag and I always wear my seatbelt, and I always check my blind spots and stuff like that, you know, to reduce the risk of dying in an accident...

Even some animals such as the elephant need to be hunted in some areas. Take for example, Botswana. Elephants in that country are overpopulated, and not only destroy crops, but are deforesting the country. The elephants will come in huge herds, pushing over trees to eat the tender leaves near the top....then move on to push over more. They trample and destroy farmers' fields and villagers gardens. In these poverty stricken areas, a hunter comes in from the United States, or wherever, bringing a huge amount of money into the economy. They pay a license fee, they pay the outfitter, and the trackers, who are local. When they kill an elephant, that is usually selected specifically because of its destructive nature......they immediately pay another huge fee that goes into the local economy. (often in excess of $50,000) Then, the local people typically are allowed to skin the elephant and they use all of its flesh for food....food that they would not otherwise have. The hunter gets the trophy, the excitement of the chase, and the memories of the hunt, and the environment and the local economy is boosted because of it.

By this logic we should start hunting humans...aren't we the most destructive animals of all? We destroy much more of the enviroment than any other animal on the planet and push all the other species around as we please. Just playing devils advocate...

then please stop using every road and utility you own and move into a secluded place. I guess i am the ultimate devil then, I design new roads and utilities that go through and destroy trees and vegetation to construct these.

those hunts are super regulated, cost a ton of money, the money goes back to help the environment fpr those animals, helps fight poaching, all the meat is donated to the local population....they usually take place on a reserve that needs to cut back the population for whatever reason...the biologist in the area makes these calls

this type of hunt ensures that the animal will never be extinct .....stop listening to the extremists....

poaching is the number one threat to an animal becoing extinct not hunting