Living with an alcoholic
Replies
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It's great that you can see the problem when he can't. Unfortunately there is no way to stop someone drinking unless they choose to. Which means either counseling for him or something far worse.
There are a few options however to get his to at least not drink drive that YOU can & MUST do.
1. Hide the car keys. In a place only you will know.
2. Get a breathalyzer installed, if he is over a limit then the car simply will not start.
3. If he does get violent..... CALL THE POLICE
4. IF he drives while drunk...... CALL THE POLICE
5. Suggest some professional help.
Alanon is only useful if HE wants to go. You can't force someone to get help.... unless the courts decide that. So then CALL THE POLICE every single time he drives drunk or gets violent. In the end it will not be up to him & if he kills someone on the roads because YOU didn't take action like hiding his keys, installing the device or calling the police...... then your PhD is worthless as you are not out to save lives.
Trust me an alcoholic will not get help till something gives. Till THEY want the change,0 -
Alanon is only useful if HE wants to go. You can't force someone to get help.... unless the courts decide that. So then CALL THE POLICE every single time he drives drunk or gets violent. In the end it will not be up to him & if he kills someone on the roads because YOU didn't take action like hiding his keys, installing the device or calling the police...... then your PhD is worthless as you are not out to save lives.
Trust me an alcoholic will not get help till something gives. Till THEY want the change,
Alanon is not for the alcoholic; it's for family and friends of alcoholics.
Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is for the alcoholic.0 -
I wrote him a letter a few weeks ago to tell him how I feel and he stopped drinking for 5 days and things were better. For 2 weeks he only drank on the weekend and in moderation but things have slipped back and feel like they could be worse than ever.
He recognises that he has a problem, I’ve told him that I’m not there to change him but there to support him and I’ve suggested counselling but he doesn’t want it. He says he can manage his own problems. I’m starting to think that I should try and find a new place to live (I have no family to move in with near to my university) this will be a struggle because our mortgage at the moment is fairly cheap and I only pay half of this. I’m starting to think that a break would be good for him to gain some perspective and control of his life.
You're a smart cookie. I mean it, you've done a great job seeing the wood for the trees and how to rectify the situation.
It's now time for the follow through.
He's not going to be able to drink any more. It's clear that he can't handle it, and that controlling it won't work. He needs to go sober. Forever.
You should move out.
You should only decide to stay with him if you're prepared for this kind of thing for the rest of your life with him. Alcoholism is a disease. He might be worth it sober, he might not.0 -
I'm replying before I read the other posts so if I'm repeating them, forgive me.
Run, don't walk, run to Alanon. Google it, there's a meeting somewhere.
Few points, he can't stop drinking, no matter if you beg, bargain, plead or rationalize. And, he's gonna get worse, alcoholism is progressive. I'm writing from the perspective of thirty years with an alcoholic whom I have three children with and he is now three years sober. But, and it is a big But, he moved out repeatedly we went to therapy over and over. He's been to rehab, and if I were in your position, without kids trying to have my own life. I really don't think I would do it again. Go to a meeting, write him a letter, call the school, see if there is graduate housing, explain it's an emergency, and take care of yourself. That's my advice. High functioning only lasts so long. You're living on borrowed time. Good Luck :flowerforyou:0 -
Alanon is only useful if HE wants to go. You can't force someone to get help.... unless the courts decide that. So then CALL THE POLICE every single time he drives drunk or gets violent. In the end it will not be up to him & if he kills someone on the roads because YOU didn't take action like hiding his keys, installing the device or calling the police...... then your PhD is worthless as you are not out to save lives.
Trust me an alcoholic will not get help till something gives. Till THEY want the change,
Alanon is not for the alcoholic; it's for family and friends of alcoholics.
Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is for the alcoholic.
Yep would know that considering that I've never had to go to one. See I was able to get over this myself & very fast. Stopped drinking one day 4 years ago & not touched a drop since. See I never had any support apart from my husband & son. So I know nothing of Alanon. I just figured it was for the actual alcoholics. My bad0 -
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OP, my advice to you is to not marry this man. He is not healthy mentally or physically. It is draining emotionally & even physically. Right now you can still make a clean break to take this opportunity & run! Go to Al-Anon so you don't make this mistake again. He will never change.
While that is sad for you :sad: telling someone that an alcoholic will never change so don't marry them? Thanks. Thanks a whole lot. I guess I never changed? I was a high functioning alcoholic. I changed. I got through it & changed. To say that one will never change kinda hurts me you know & others that have,
Why do I say once rather than still am as most alcoholics are referred to? Because I no longer drink. Just like someone who was obese once...they are no longer obese & don't get called that. A person who took drugs most of their life & then went clean for many years or the rest of their life is no longer called a drug user. So why is an alcoholic any different?0 -
How is it the OP's fault if someone who is an adult drives drunk? BTW, A Ph.D is a Doctor of Philosphy, not medecine. If you allow alcohol or drugs to have power over your life in a way that you can no longer control and you then overcome it and get help, you will always be a recovering addict. Recovery never ends. Al-Anon is for families. AA is for the actual alcoholics. For someone who claims they "were" and alcoholic, you are not very informed on the support systems in place.It's great that you can see the problem when he can't. Unfortunately there is no way to stop someone drinking unless they choose to. Which means either counseling for him or something far worse.
There are a few options however to get his to at least not drink drive that YOU can & MUST do.
1. Hide the car keys. In a place only you will know.
2. Get a breathalyzer installed, if he is over a limit then the car simply will not start.
3. If he does get violent..... CALL THE POLICE
4. IF he drives while drunk...... CALL THE POLICE
5. Suggest some professional help.
Alanon is only useful if HE wants to go. You can't force someone to get help.... unless the courts decide that. So then CALL THE POLICE every single time he drives drunk or gets violent. In the end it will not be up to him & if he kills someone on the roads because YOU didn't take action like hiding his keys, installing the device or calling the police...... then your PhD is worthless as you are not out to save lives.
Trust me an alcoholic will not get help till something gives. Till THEY want the change,0 -
How is it the OP's fault if someone who is an adult drives drunk? BTW, A Ph.D is a Doctor of Philosphy, not medecine. If you allow alcohol or drugs to have power over your life in a way that you can no longer control and you then overcome it and get help, you will always be a recovering addict. Recovery never ends. Al-Anon is for families. AA is for the actual alcoholics. For someone who claims they "were" and alcoholic, you are not very informed on the support systems in place.It's great that you can see the problem when he can't. Unfortunately there is no way to stop someone drinking unless they choose to. Which means either counseling for him or something far worse.
There are a few options however to get his to at least not drink drive that YOU can & MUST do.
1. Hide the car keys. In a place only you will know.
2. Get a breathalyzer installed, if he is over a limit then the car simply will not start.
3. If he does get violent..... CALL THE POLICE
4. IF he drives while drunk...... CALL THE POLICE
5. Suggest some professional help.
Alanon is only useful if HE wants to go. You can't force someone to get help.... unless the courts decide that. So then CALL THE POLICE every single time he drives drunk or gets violent. In the end it will not be up to him & if he kills someone on the roads because YOU didn't take action like hiding his keys, installing the device or calling the police...... then your PhD is worthless as you are not out to save lives.
Trust me an alcoholic will not get help till something gives. Till THEY want the change,
With respect to the claims; she felt she had a drinking problem and then stopped one day. I think that's the extent of her experience and information.
On the plus side, there are a lot of people in this thread who do have a positive message, who have real experience, and whose suggestions have the ring of good common sense. OP can be seen to resonate with those messages.
The very few people in this thread who are clueless are quite evident as such.0 -
I have never been with an alcoholic, but my life has been touched by people with addictions. I was recommended the book "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie (http://www.amazon.ca/Codependent-No-More-Controlling-Yourself/dp/0894864025) and was skeptical about reading it - didn't think it fit my situation.
It really helped. A LOT.
Maybe consider checking it out?
Good luck, no matter which road you take, it's going to be a tough one to travel. May you find the support you need to make the best possible choices.
:hugs:0 -
My reasoning behind telling her to call the police was that, if it were someone I loved, I would rather have them pissed off at me, in jail, never talking to me again, whatever, but ALIVE, any day of the week. If he hurts someone else, there's a good chance he would never recover emotionally. Hate me all you want, as long as you and the people are around you are safe.You know I have been doing some thinking about to whole call police the next time he drinks and drives. I said how I think he might react before. I do change that response because me getting my second DUI finally got me to sit down and see how stupid of me for doing this. You telling on him will save his life and someone else. That how I look at my second DUI. Like maybe this is not to smart know matter the excuse I gave myself for driving in the first place.
That, and it's not her responsibility to get into a confrontation with him over his keys or driving when he's intoxicated. It may or may not even be safe for her to do so. That's what the police are for.0 -
You can only learn to notice what you are doing to make yourself unhappy. Al-anon can help with this. He does not need to do a thing for you to go to al-anon, feel better, and/or enjoy your life.
You might need to make a big decision, but you need to feel strong and healthy mentally before you do. You may be able to find peace while you are still living with him, and be in the right frame of mind to leave or to stay. You might need a break away to find that peace. Remember, that there are people in this world who are facing horrible chaos, like war, povety etc. who find a way to be healthy and happy in the midst of it all. You can do this too. Alanon may help you, a therapist may help you, or you may be able to shift your thinking on your own.
Remember, it is OK to leave someone you love, and It is OK to love and live with an alcoholic. What is most important is that you can enjoy your life and live your dreams. Notice what you are doing to sabotage your own happiness. How many times have you written a letter only to get the same result, but hoping for something different each and every time, and feeling sadness because you did not get the predictable outcome? Go easy on yourself and take it slow. You do not have to force a solution on yourself in a hurry.
You can't change him. You are powerless over him.
As for the police, do what you would do for anybody who was putting other people's lives at risk. It's not personal. It's just what you do.0 -
I know exactly what you are going through. My father was a binge alcoholic who didn't have do drink every day but would go on huge benders. He was Jekyll and Hyde...nicest guy you ever met when sober and a raging bull when drunk. My sister was a life long alcoholic and drug addict and she died last year from stomach varices caused by that pattern. My remaining sister is a recovering alcoholic who was a high functioning executive for many, many years. Business dinners with lots of drinks were part of the job. She became chemically dependent on the alcohol and couldn't even go to sleep at night for fear of going into DTs. She's been in rehab more in the past year than not.
Here is what I know.
There is nothing wrong with loving an alcoholic. BUT...the Al-Anon 3Cs are dead-on:
We didn’t cause it – it is not our fault that the other person drinks, it is their private battle
We can’t control it – we have no power over the other person's desire to drink
We can’t cure it – it is an illness that cannot be cured through any known medical remedies
It would be really easy for me to feel sorry for myself for having an entire family of alcoholics. I mean...what about ME!? What if I don't want to have to feel my stomach churn when the champagne glasses come out for a toast? What if I want a beer with my pizza? What if I don't want them all dying and leaving me alone?
I suppose it's been really easy for me, also, to eat away that pain....drown it in cookies and snacks and casseroles. I went to a few AA meetings...not so different than Weight Watchers sometimes.
The real key to my happiness has been accepting that it is okay for me to be mad, and okay for me to wash my hands of the problem. Nothing I do or say is going to make it better or worse. It is what it is, and it IS up to the alcoholic.
My Dad and Sister used to tell this joke, "What's the difference between a drunk and an alcoholic? Alcoholics go to meetings."
I sure wish they were still around to tell that joke.0 -
I have never been with an alcoholic, but my life has been touched by people with addictions. I was recommended the book "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie (http://www.amazon.ca/Codependent-No-More-Controlling-Yourself/dp/0894864025) and was skeptical about reading it - didn't think it fit my situation.
It really helped. A LOT.
Maybe consider checking it out?
Good luck, no matter which road you take, it's going to be a tough one to travel. May you find the support you need to make the best possible choices.
:hugs:
OP,
The above is a very good book. Do you have access to counseling for yourself at your university?
Do not try to stop him from driving while drunk. That is on him. You are already his victim more than you realize.
I hope that you can come up with a back up plan for your 12 more months of living with him and paying half his mortgage payment.
If you had to move out in a moment's notice, where would you go? Get some things in place for that possibility.0 -
He is very likely not just drinking at home, he is probably drinking at lunch breaks and at work before heading home, his blood alcohol levels are probably always up.
As someone who lost a brother to a drunk driver, I ask that even if you think he isn't drunk that next time he goes out for pizza or more booze you call the police with his vehicle registration number and his destination.0 -
I can relate to what you are going through. My husband is an alcoholic and it took years for him to finally admit he had a problem and seek help from AA. I echo what everyone else has said that you cannot help him unless he wants help - but you can take care of YOU! I too was recommended the "Codependent No More" book and it has helped me a LOT. I highly recommend it.
I am sorry you are going through this. Alcoholism is a terrible disease that ruins so many lives. I hope your partner comes to terms with his addiction and seeks help soon. In the meantime - get support - take care of yourself & do what is best for you (even if it means leaving him).0 -
For you, I would recommend you read the book "Under The Influence". It's a quick but very beneficial read, to teach you about the physiological aspects of alcoholism. You need to understand it's a disease that doesn't ever go away. Him not drinking long term is going to take something drastic.
So long as you continue to make excuses for his behavior, you are enabling him; sad, but it is what it is. Definitely please look into Al anon.
Best of luck (just under 12 years sober)
Thanks for this and well done with your sobriety, I will take a look at that book. Along with support again cant say enough about alanon
Another book is Co-Depedant No More by Marianne Beattie I see it was allready suggested but I will again.0 -
Alanon is only useful if HE wants to go. You can't force someone to get help.... unless the courts decide that. So then CALL THE POLICE every single time he drives drunk or gets violent. In the end it will not be up to him & if he kills someone on the roads because YOU didn't take action like hiding his keys, installing the device or calling the police...... then your PhD is worthless as you are not out to save lives.
Trust me an alcoholic will not get help till something gives. Till THEY want the change,
Alanon is for HER not him. She cannot fix him she needs to decide what she need to do for herself.0 -
It's great that you can see the problem when he can't. Unfortunately there is no way to stop someone drinking unless they choose to. Which means either counseling for him or something far worse.
There are a few options however to get his to at least not drink drive that YOU can & MUST do.
1. Hide the car keys. In a place only you will know.
2. Get a breathalyzer installed, if he is over a limit then the car simply will not start.
3. If he does get violent..... CALL THE POLICE
4. IF he drives while drunk...... CALL THE POLICE
5. Suggest some professional help.
Alanon is only useful if HE wants to go. You can't force someone to get help.... unless the courts decide that. So then CALL THE POLICE every single time he drives drunk or gets violent. In the end it will not be up to him & if he kills someone on the roads because YOU didn't take action like hiding his keys, installing the device or calling the police...... then your PhD is worthless as you are not out to save lives.
Trust me an alcoholic will not get help till something gives. Till THEY want the change,
I disagree with a lot of this. First I will say that a interlock device will actually not start the car above like around .025 in USA.
What I do agree with is sometimes people are so stubborn that something needs to happen for them to change my ways. I was actually glad to get my second DUI and to actually learn from it. I was leading a path to maybe doing things like the OP SO later down the road with someone who I would care for.
Sometimes a person has to hit a bottom to notice what they are doing wrong. Some people learn from other peoples mistakes. I can say as a former excessive drinker that I was not learning from other people mistakes or I would never got a DUI.
The OP SO probably feels alone in all of his drinking ways. You need to tell him that others have struggle and lost the battle (death). Some have struggle and conquer the addiction. There will be people who struggle with addiction in the future.
My rock bottom for my drinking habits was my second DUI. For others it has taken being homeless, car accidents while drinking, divorce, jail sentence, losing there kids, so much worst things than a DUI.0 -
Spoken by someone who has never been in a relationship with an addict, clearly.I guess it might be a bit irrelevant to wonder what is going on in his life that makes him want to medicate... he is clearly not happy... but I suppose it's best to ditch him and let him sort it out.0 -
'That's it I'm going to stay single.
I'm in awe of the strength of you guys that stayed, trying to fix your families.
My heart is with you....
^^^^^ I Second this
Ive already had my fun run of drunks. If they werent a drunk they had some kind of addiction. Not saying I have been perfect but I will stay single and raise my kids. Im not raising or taking care of anymore men. They will only change if they want too!0 -
And Im not by any means saying all men are this way but for some reason men with addictions attract to me lol0
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Another book is Co-Depedant No More by Marianne Beattie I see it was allready suggested but I will again.
Melody Beattie.
She also has a daily reader book "Language of Letting Go" that you can read for free online each day here (through the Hazeldon site): http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/thought.view?catId=1904
Alcoholics usually do not get help until they have reached rock bottom. Everyone has a different bottom and you have no way of knowing when your partner's bottom is going to be or what it looks like. His recovery is up to him. Your recovery is up to you. You might want to check out Al Anon as others have suggested. Alcoholism is a family disease. Trust me, it is not only your partner who is sick with alcoholism. It affects everyone around him.0 -
Spoken by someone who has never been in a relationship with an addict, clearly.I guess it might be a bit irrelevant to wonder what is going on in his life that makes him want to medicate... he is clearly not happy... but I suppose it's best to ditch him and let him sort it out.
That would not be an accurate assumption.0 -
4 bottle in one night? high functioning or not he's likely to get cirrosis of the liver if he continues...he probably doesn't realize how bad it is because his tolerance is so high at this point. I think if you talking to him doesn't help, maybe a doctor should explain to him the damage he is doing.0
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HI OP.
I have lost 3 important people in my life to alcoholism. They were 39, 27 and 29. One a GP. one a barrister, the last one a formula 2 and stunt driver. My advice, just from me to you is this - save yourself and leave. There are many myths about alcoholism and a lot of disagreement about it. For example "rock bottom". Once you hit rock bottom, my dead boyfriend used to say, there is only one way to go - sideways. This was meant to be a joke, but sometimes it is true. I have seen people hit rock bottom and stay there for years, homeless, estranged from their families, then die very suddenly.
Alcoholism is progressive. Once on the roller coaster, the disease progresses, and you need more and more of the drug trying to get that feeling it used to give you. Eventually, you can never get that feeling back, but you keep on trying. Your Limbic system wants that great feeling back. Brain chemistry becomes affected with permanent personality change. I have known people give up alcohol for a whole year, get super fit, start drinking again, thinking they can just drink like normal people, then die. Then there is the "geographical cure" where the alcoholic thinks that if you move home/area, everything will change. It doesn't. Eventually, your man will suddenly lose his tolerance to alcohol. He might drink a bottle of wine in five minutes, get drunk immediately, and fall asleep for the rest of the evening. There is no going back from this point to any kind of "normal" drinking. The recidivism in alcoholics is also depressingly high.
I have lost many other people to alcoholism in addition to those mentioned above. It is the scourge of my generation in the area I was brought up.
Your man might get himself well, but I don't think anything you do or don't do will make that happen.
Please take care of yourself.0 -
Apologies that this is not strictly fitness related but it is health related and I have received lots of great support on this forum about general fitness and diet, I wanted to share this in the hope that someone might be able to offer support or point me in the direction of some.
So I'm coming into the third and hopefully final year of my PhD. This is my dream and I love my research, I’ve worked really hard to get here. For the final stretch I just need to work hard, reward myself, keep a good routine and look after my mind and body.
This is all being made harder by life with my alcoholic partner. He is what people call a 'high-functioning alcoholic' in that he has a good job, turns up on time, does bits of D.I.Y. and his fair share of housework, food shopping, pays his share of the bills etc... BUT he drinks excessive amounts of alcohol. To put this into perspective, I arrived home from the university today at 4pm and he had finished 4 bottles of red wine which he bought at 8pm last night. He can easily drink 2 bottles of wine a day every day. It is mostly at night and up until recently was only at night but on 2 occasions recently, I've woke on a weekend at around 7am and he's got up half an hour before me and is finishing of the film and bottle of wine from the previous night, while I sit with my cereal and coffee. I worry about his health, long-term and short-term. He has lots of mood swings, he can be cuddly one minute and then wants to tickle and nibble at me. This is all sweet and romantic fun when he's sober but when he's had too much to drink he can be rough, extremely irritating and the nibbling becomes more like biting. He goes into rants about things in the news, global politics etc but in an almost aggressive way so it is impossible to engage in a proper conversation and he tells me I'm too liberal and naive. He’ll drive 3 miles to pick up a pizza even after too much alcohol and I worry about his and others’ safety.
When he's sober he is the most loving, caring, attentive, intelligent and creative man I have ever met. He buys me flowers, he drives me to surprise places, he fitted a bath in our house as we only had a shower and I love to have a bath, he compliments me, listens to me, cares for me when I'm sick (even took a day off once to care for me). He talks of our future, of getting married and travelling, he makes me laugh and makes me feel very loved.
I wrote him a letter a few weeks ago to tell him how I feel and he stopped drinking for 5 days and things were better. For 2 weeks he only drank on the weekend and in moderation but things have slipped back and feel like they could be worse than ever.
He recognises that he has a problem, I’ve told him that I’m not there to change him but there to support him and I’ve suggested counselling but he doesn’t want it. He says he can manage his own problems. I’m starting to think that I should try and find a new place to live (I have no family to move in with near to my university) this will be a struggle because our mortgage at the moment is fairly cheap and I only pay half of this. I’m starting to think that a break would be good for him to gain some perspective and control of his life but moving out would be a massive upheaval especially for me (selfishly) at this stage of my PhD and especially if we are able to work things out. I also don’t want to abandon him, he’s a good man in a bad place and I want to support him I just don’t know how.
I don’t know what to do. If anyone has any experiences or can point me somewhere, it would be really appreciated.
Thanks
OP...
I have a similar story except my ex was not super nice & romantic like your guy is at any time (sober or not). We were married for 22 years and the 'aggression' only got worse with time. Although there was 'stuff' at the beginning before we got married, I should have not married him but I do have a great son so I don't regret that!
I won't go into details, however, what you are doing now is what I did... I enabled him to be an alcoholic. to be an abuser. to be a (fill in the blank).
it took my ex checking himself into a hospital for his alcoholism for me to say enough and if he doesn't want to work on a list of issues and me work on the enabling then he is not welcome back home. it was his choice. he chose to not work on those issues & the marriage and told me to write up the divorce papers.
my point to you is... he has to want it for himself. you are enabling him. even though you deeply love him, it's best that you part ways, for yours and his own good. who knows, maybe it'll be the jolt he needs? but don't count on that! YOU deserve better! IIII deserve better! :flowerforyou:0 -
I am dealing with this as well. I feel your pain! The advice of Al-A-non is really good. I tend to blame myself for a lot of his drinking - if only I was skinnier etc... not true! I know he and I both have a lot to work on. I only hope that by me not drinking and getting fit - it will inspire him to make some changes. Only he is the one that can decide enough is enough and the beer has to go.0
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Thanks for the message and trust me I do wonder, I do much more than wonder, I try my best to be a listening ear, a shoulder to cry on, a non-judgmental friend and partner. I've not once asked him to stop drinking as I don't want to be the enemy but instead I've asked him what makes him feel the need to drink and I've asked what I can do for him . He says he feels lost and down but "doesn't need a professional". I've asked him if he'll talk to his friends and he says "I can manage my own issues".
This comment struck me as very odd. You've never asked him to stop drinking. If you move out now without doing so - it will be so unexpected as to be unfair and unsupportive.
FIRST you need to ask him to stop because right now you're valuing "not being the bad guy" over your relationship with a good man (when he's sober). Is that really the order of priorities you want to have?
I once had to leave a man because he valued his looks over our relationship and he didn't change his ways even after I pointed out the problems it was causing (imagine having along distance relationship when one person wouldn't even let you see their face for months on end - it's hard enough not seeing them in person but to take away the only other way of seeing them shows they'd rather feel like they look good than have a healthy relationship with someone who just wants to see and converse with them).
SECOND After you ask him to stop drinking, if he doesn't and still won't seek professional help, that's when you give the ultimatum - "Get help immediately, or I will leave because you have left me no other options". One idea is to have a same day meeting/counseling session lined up before you talk to him and give him this ultimatum while he's sober (hopefully you can try to predict when this will be - tricky, but you know him best...). If he agrees - head STRAIGHT to the meeting, before he has a chance to drink again.
THIRD If he gets help, stay and help if you still want a future with him (recognizing it might still be hard, but at least he chose you over booze. Dealing with the addiction comes next).
If he does not get help, leave and cut off contact with him because his priority was booze over you, addiction or not. He knew while he was sober what was on the line.
So I see it as a three step process on your end. I also agree with Al-Anon or whichever place can provide you with good advice (I'm not sure of mine, it's just how I see the situation).
I truly wish you all the best in any decision you make!
ETA: In regards to your PhD, first - congrats on the hard work! And second - lot of people manage a PhD while having to support themselves. You can learn to do this too, so don't let it hold you back. You could be risking your life for your PhD without even realizing it.0
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