Is strength training cardio?

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  • _Terrapin_
    _Terrapin_ Posts: 4,301 Member
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    Here's a comparison of what a year of serious strength training, and a year of serious run training can achieve. Same year, by the way.

    Over the past year, I have progressed to deadlifting 2x body weight (330lb, yesterday), running a 22m 5k, and a 52m 10k. So if you could run a 22m 5k with strength training only, I'd agree with you. I'd also say that it would be a fair comparison to ask a non-strength trained runner if they could dead 2xbw. But you didn't do it in 22m. You did it in 33m.

    That's an 11m pace, which barely qualifies as a casual jog. If you put up that pace in an Army physical fitness test, you'd fail. Any slower and you'd be walking. That's the running equivalent of 1xbw deadlift - utterly unimpressive, and leaving people saying "it's great that he's trying!". Kudos to you for getting out there and doing it, and lifting has obviously given you a cardio base, but it's the same base that you build in 9 weeks of couch to 5k. So you've really proved approximately nothing.

    Yes, lifting will give you a cardio base better than the average couch potato. And if that's all you want, then great, skip the cardio. But if you want a heart that's as strong as the body you keep it in, some form of cardio training is necessary.

    Barbells for strength, cardio for endurance. Comparing the two is like comparing fish to bicycles.

    Just out of curiosity, what was your 5K and 10K times at the start of the year? And what was your deadlift?
  • stumblinthrulife
    stumblinthrulife Posts: 2,558 Member
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    Here's a comparison of what a year of serious strength training, and a year of serious run training can achieve. Same year, by the way.

    Over the past year, I have progressed to deadlifting 2x body weight (330lb, yesterday), running a 22m 5k, and a 52m 10k. So if you could run a 22m 5k with strength training only, I'd agree with you. I'd also say that it would be a fair comparison to ask a non-strength trained runner if they could dead 2xbw. But you didn't do it in 22m. You did it in 33m.

    That's an 11m pace, which barely qualifies as a casual jog. If you put up that pace in an Army physical fitness test, you'd fail. Any slower and you'd be walking. That's the running equivalent of 1xbw deadlift - utterly unimpressive, and leaving people saying "it's great that he's trying!". Kudos to you for getting out there and doing it, and lifting has obviously given you a cardio base, but it's the same base that you build in 9 weeks of couch to 5k. So you've really proved approximately nothing.

    Yes, lifting will give you a cardio base better than the average couch potato. And if that's all you want, then great, skip the cardio. But if you want a heart that's as strong as the body you keep it in, some form of cardio training is necessary.

    Barbells for strength, cardio for endurance. Comparing the two is like comparing fish to bicycles.

    Just out of curiosity, what was your 5K and 10K times at the start of the year? And what was your deadlift?

    Around 30 minutes after graduating C25k. My very first 10k time was around 1h5m if I recall correctly.

    Hard to say on my deadlift - I started with Strong Lifts, so was on 95lbs at first. I obviously could have lifted more than that, but I wanted to start carefully and I was in no rush to test my 1RM. 225lb is perhaps a reasonable guess at what my 1RM might have been at that time.
  • _Terrapin_
    _Terrapin_ Posts: 4,301 Member
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    @ stumblinthrulife

    Thanks for the reply and congrats on your times. As for old Tom you mentioned his pace below:

    "That's an 11m pace, which barely qualifies as a casual jog. If you put up that pace in an Army physical fitness test, you'd fail. Any slower and you'd be walking."

    For a 47 YO male a 22 minute 2 mile fitness test time would provide 40 points. He falls in the 47-51 category. For sharts and goggles, if he ran a faster 2 miles, say 20 minutes he'd have 56 points. I remember a CW4 who maxed out his last fitness test ( all 3 measurements) prior to retirement. He ran a 14:10( 2 mile run) at age 51.
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
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    Go Navy. Beat Army.
  • Go_Mizzou99
    Go_Mizzou99 Posts: 2,628 Member
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    So what happened to the bacon?
    I saw the doughnut...but no bacon?

    giphy.gif
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    Some in the cardio crowd would probably argue that a >30 min 5k or >68 min 10k isn't exactly comparable to a 2x bw deadlift.



    But anyhow, I'm in...

    ...to catch up on this sure-to-be-awesome thread.

    this- you're achievements aren't comparable.

    I can run a sub 30 5K with NO training what so ever- I have a good running background and the mental hudspa to just gut through it.

    I could probably run a 10K in 50 something minutes.

    While those are decent times for not training- they aren't comparable to a 2.5x body weight lift. Period.
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
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    interesting thread
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
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    interesting thread

    Yes it is. Many questioned the validity of the hypothesis with valid arguments (more than I expected). Some just ridiculed (less than I expected). Some were as arrogant as my original post (about what I expected). I did expect more than 4 pages of replies though. Maybe it's not as hot of a topic as I presumed.

    I did do another 5k this morning and enjoyed every minute of it. Also deadlifted yesterday and enjoyed that, too.

    Eat all the foods. Do all the training. Enjoy the ride.

    Tom
  • _Terrapin_
    _Terrapin_ Posts: 4,301 Member
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    Go Navy. Beat Army.

    Does Navy have athletes? hehehehe. . . . . . May actually be a very good game this year. Good meaning Army wins by a comfortable margin.
  • SEAFOODMAN
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    N=1, so take it with a grain of sugar.

    I was curious to see what kind of cardiovascular shape I was in after 1.5 years of doing just strength training. So I jumped right in and did a 5k last Wednesday in 33:40. Did another one Saturday in 31:10. Another one Tuesday in 33:20. Decided to try a 10k today and did that in 68:35. Not great times, but I ran the whole distance and had more left in the tank. I am pleased with that.

    Here's where I'm going to draw a conclusion: Heavy strength training is an effective form of cardiovascular fitness.

    Here's where I torque the cardio only crowd: I bet a dime on a donut that someone who has only done cardio training cannot deadlift 2x their body weight in a week starting from a dead stop. I am going to contend that strength training alone is better overall for fitness than cardio alone.

    Here's where I might get back on track: Both are fun. I hate to say it, but that 10k was a real rush. I can't wait to try a 1/2 and then a full marathon. Very cool, indeed.

    Eat all the foods. Do all the exercise.

    Enjoy the ride,

    Tom


    Do you wanna cookie
  • katysmelly
    katysmelly Posts: 380 Member
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    Some times strength training can have a cardio element to it if you keep up a pace that gets your heart rate up consistently.

    I think your logic is flawed though. Deadlifting 2x your bodyweight seems like a much greater feat than running a 33 minute 5k.

    possibly, but that depends on a few factors, like age, sex, weight. It's taken me about 5 months to work up to ~2x BW deadlift, but running a 5k in that time is impossible for me and would probably take me a long time to get to that

    Exactly! I will probably never be able to deadlift 2x my bodyweight, but I ran 5k in 27 minutes shortly after finishing the C25K program.

    And no matter how long I lift heavy or train for running, I will probably never be good at swimming laps. LOL
  • SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish
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    Some times strength training can have a cardio element to it if you keep up a pace that gets your heart rate up consistently.

    I think your logic is flawed though. Deadlifting 2x your bodyweight seems like a much greater feat than running a 33 minute 5k.

    possibly, but that depends on a few factors, like age, sex, weight. It's taken me about 5 months to work up to ~2x BW deadlift, but running a 5k in that time is impossible for me and would probably take me a long time to get to that

    Meh, there are plenty of young novices with little to no training that can run that pace, but few young novices will go into the gym and start deadlifting over twice their bodyweight immediately. In fact it used to be a fitness test minimum speed in school to run a mile in a much faster pace than that, and you cant even pass Army standards at 62 years old on a 2 mile run at that pace...

    Running speed for long distance is predominantly about bodyfat % with a reasonable minimal conditioning, an obese person can similarly be proud of how much water they displace when getting into a hot tub...
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
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    Do you wanna cookie

    Kind of you to offer, but what I really want is a Big Mac.
  • SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish
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    Looks like you got a "C" from Runner's World. I'd say the dead lift over 2x body weight is definitely a bigger achievement ;)

    Runner's World Age Graded Calculator

    Your Gender Male
    Your Age 48
    Race Distance 5k
    Race Time 33:40:00

    Results

    Age-Graded Score 0.72%
    Age-Graded Time 29:55:23

    Your age-graded score is the ratio of the approximate world-record time for your age and gender divided by your actual time.

    To score 100% you would need a time of 14:31
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
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    Looks like you got a "C" from Runner's World. I'd say the dead lift over 2x body weight is definitely a bigger achievement ;)

    Runner's World Age Graded Calculator

    Your Gender Male
    Your Age 48
    Race Distance 5k
    Race Time 33:40:00

    Results

    Age-Graded Score 0.72%
    Age-Graded Time 29:55:23

    Your age-graded score is the ratio of the approximate world-record time for your age and gender divided by your actual time.

    To score 100% you would need a time of 14:31

    I used their calculator and got an F. 48 yo male 5k time 28:39 (that was my time this morning):


    Age-Graded Score 50.66%
    Age-Graded Time 25:28

    I like yours better. But I think you entered 33:40:00 which would result in the numbers you posted. But that's 33 hours, 40 minutes, 0 seconds. I might be able to do a marathon in that time.

    That's equivalent to a 290 lbs DL for me. Not that impressive, to be sure.

    To match my 480 deadlift @ 198 body weight, I would have to run a 17 minute 5k. I concede my original hypothesis is invalid.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,671 Member
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    Gonna say no.

    Two different types of muscle are being used. For strength, it's fast twitch. For endurance, it's slow twitch. Resistance, lactic acid build up and oxygen use will help to dictate which muscle type you're using.

    Long distance runners and sprinters both use oxygen and run. But sprinters do EXLOSIVE running while long distance runners don't. Different muscle types are being used. And you can also usually see it in their physiques.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish
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    Looks like you got a "C" from Runner's World. I'd say the dead lift over 2x body weight is definitely a bigger achievement ;)

    Runner's World Age Graded Calculator

    Your Gender Male
    Your Age 48
    Race Distance 5k
    Race Time 33:40:00

    Results

    Age-Graded Score 0.72%
    Age-Graded Time 29:55:23

    Your age-graded score is the ratio of the approximate world-record time for your age and gender divided by your actual time.

    To score 100% you would need a time of 14:31

    I used their calculator and got an F. 48 yo male 5k time 28:39 (that was my time this morning):


    Age-Graded Score 50.66%
    Age-Graded Time 25:28

    I like yours better. But I think you entered 33:40:00 which would result in the numbers you posted. But that's 33 hours, 40 minutes, 0 seconds. I might be able to do a marathon in that time.

    That's equivalent to a 290 lbs DL for me. Not that impressive, to be sure.

    To match my 480 deadlift @ 198 body weight, I would have to run a 17 minute 5k. I concede my original hypothesis is invalid.

    Oops, you are right, can you tell I'm not a runner? :) But yeah, I think the deadlift x2 bodyweight is much more of a standard and more impressive than your 5k.

    Comparing just anyone's time on a 5k or 10k is like comparing just anyone's dead lift, and most thin people with low bodyfat % will have a relatively OK to good number on a long distance race, just like most 350lbers will have a relatively OK to impressive looking deadlift if you just take raw numbers with minimal training.

    I don't really equate 5k or 10k to just general "aerobic" fitness either, that's specialized long distance running. As you stretch out the distance, humans can even compete with horses, so does that make horses "not as aerobically fit"? Even just with humans, the more muscle mass you have in the upper body, and the "fitter" someone is in this way, the lower you are going to "score" on the long distance running. Just imagine Arnold running a 10k... Even Bolt is going to start to suffer on a 5 or 10k, and you can't say he's not aerobically fit.

    So I wasnt really saying your hypothesis is invalid, just the comparison was bad, and that there are different types of aerobically fit. Yes you are getting some aerobic fitness with weightlifting, for shorter duration aerobic activities. If you want to compare long distance aerobic fitness, probably only your bodyfat reduction is "helping" you, and muscle gain from lifting is "hurting" you.
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
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    In case anyone is still following this defective thread I pulled 5x390 yesterday which is 2x body weight. I ran a 26:50 5k this morning.
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
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    interesting how the more you run, the better your times seem to get.

    must be from lifting.
  • tomcornhole
    tomcornhole Posts: 1,084 Member
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    I deserved that.