Don't believe in "Starvation Mode"?
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So what about sick people, or people on those medical 500 calorie optifast diets, or people who had weight loss surgery? Why isn't this starvation mode impact those people?0
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Intrigued by this whole debate, I did a little poking around and this is probably the best article I have found. My theory has always been that people vastly under report their caloric intake and over report their caloric expenditures through excercise (MFP, as much as I love this site, greatly over-rates calories burned, compared to everything else I see, including cardio machines, trainers, and every other source I have found).
Take it with a grain of salt, but it makes a lot of sense to me:
http://www.healthscience.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=512:are-you-in-the-starvation-mode-or-starving-for-truth&catid=102:jeff-novicks-blog&Itemid=2670 -
Hey everyone!! I'm new to the site & I was just browsing the Community Tool and saw this topic. As a personal trainer (my personal road block is my diet), I totally understand the concept of undereating. I would warn my clients about this! I would liken consuming calories to putting gas in your car. I'd say, "Would you drive cross country with half a tank of gas and expect to get to Florida??" (I was in Los Angeles at the time). Well, the same concept applies to our bodies. We get so obsessed with pushing our bodies to their limits and obsessing over the numbers that we often overlook taking care of the "machine" that is going to get us to our goal. So think of your body as a machine-you've got to have the proper fuel in order to reach your goals. When I broke it down to them simply, they understood. I would also remind them about MIcheal Phelps and how many calories he consumes a day to replenish his body when he is competitively training- 12,000!! Do you think he looks fat?! Lol-athlete or not, our bodies all need to be replenished-no exception. The harder you work out, the more fuel you will require.
Anyways, I think this site is a great tool and I'm glad I joined!0 -
So what about sick people, or people on those medical 500 calorie optifast diets, or people who had weight loss surgery? Why isn't this starvation mode impact those people?
It can impact them. but you have to look really closely at the science here.
First you have to remember, Doctors aren't worried about muscle mass for someone who is morbidly obese and risking immanent death, they're worried about the death part, so sacrificing muscle mass to create a huge deficit for short (2 to 4 week) periods is perfectly reasonable assuming they monitor nutrient levels and make sure the patient's vital systems are functional.
Second, Nobody's saying that you won't still lose weight in starvation mode, the body can only reduce it's metabolic rate so much before it reaches a baseline required to remain conscious and active. Please note, this is not the same as a HEALTHY metabolic rate, things are compromised in this scenario, such as kidney function, gallbladder function, skin, hair, and nail health, energy levels, and maybe most importantly, immune system function. Essentially, the bigger the deficit, the more secondary (but still important) systems that are effected. The perfect, if extreme, example of this is anorexia. The patient still loses weight, but their teeth eventually rot, they gain a yellow gaunt look to their skin, their hair falls out, their gallbladder eventually stops working, they have minimal energy, their nails look yellow and really bad. And they are constantly fighting off infections that a healthy body would simply shrug off with ease.
Third, and this is IMPORTANT to grasp, so please re-read this as many times as you need to until you completely understand what I'm saying here.
The more fat you have available, the bigger your deficit can be without entering a state of long term underfeeding. So someone who's had WLS can have a large deficit because simply their body can keep generating energy from the fat stores in their body, why do you think they lose the weight so fast? You lose fat like an ice cube melts, from the outside in, the bigger the area available to pull energy from, the bigger the deficit can be. Until the body recognizes a deficit it can't compensate for by using fat stores, it won't begin making hormonal (and metabolic) changes to compensate. This means if you're obese, you can have a larger deficit than if you are at a healthy body fat %. the other thing to remember is that for people who have had WLS, 2 things happen, 1 their stomach volume gradually increases to allow for a more healthy amount of food, and they are monitored for nutrient levels during the recovery process to make sure that they are receiving the right amount of micronutrients for their body.
Someone at home creating a giant deficit won't have that luxury, and can thus be subject to multiple syndromes and deficiencies that are associated with malnutrition. And it's not like these things jump right out at you immediately, someone with anemia doesn't know they have it from one day to the next, it's a gradual onset, most people won't even recognize the symptoms of malnutrition until they become so severe that they cause physical changes. That doesn't mean the problem hasn't been occurring for a while, and causing harm.
I, and most people on here are trying to council healthy weight loss, maybe someone can have a bigger deficit than this site recommends, maybe they can't, but we take the approach of "it doesn't hurt to keep a slightly smaller deficit, so why risk that extra quarter or half lb loss if you don't have to? In the grand scheme, what are you gaining? A few extra months at a lower weight? Is that really worth losing your gallbladder over, or suffering a major internal infection, or losing your hair?"0 -
lots of info. thanks for the post0
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"Starvation Mode" is not possible for someone who is overweight. If you haven't met your weight loss goal you will not go into a starvation mode. You have to much fat stored in your body to do this. Your body will simply use your stored fat as energy resulting in calorie lost...resulting in losing weight. It is really a logical thing that we think too hard about. I think somewhere we just want to justify eating more which is probably why we are overweight. Once you have reached a healthy weight...then starvation mode becomes a factor. I am 6.2 and weight 264. I am maintaining a 1510 calorie diet. I work out about 3 times a week right now...(trying to improve that daily number). Of course when I work out my net calorie is lower than 1510. Sometimes even though I eat three meals a day and two snacks I don't reached 1510. However I have lost 11lbs in less than a month. I view it as more calories out....My body is not going to go in a starvation mode I still weigh 264lbs.....It has plenty of stored fat to survive. If you eat 1510 and work out to lose 300 and then go back and eat 300 your net loss is 0 calories. Remeber calories in - calories out equals weight lost.0
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"Starvation Mode" is not possible for someone who is overweight. If you haven't met your weight loss goal you will not go into a starvation mode. You have to much fat stored in your body to do this. Your body will simply use your stored fat as energy resulting in calorie lost...resulting in losing weight. It is really a logical thing that we think too hard about. I think somewhere we just want to justify eating more which is probably why we are overweight. Once you have reached a healthy weight...then starvation mode becomes a factor. I am 6.2 and weight 264. I am maintaining a 1510 calorie diet. I work out about 3 times a week right now...(trying to improve that daily number). Of course when I work out my net calorie is lower than 1510. Sometimes even though I eat three meals a day and two snacks I don't reached 1510. However I have lost 11lbs in less than a month. I view it as more calories out....My body is not going to go in a starvation mode I still weigh 264lbs.....It has plenty of stored fat to survive. If you eat 1510 and work out to lose 300 and then go back and eat 300 your net loss is 0 calories. Remeber calories in - calories out equals weight lost.
Close, but it almost sounds like you are suggesting that an obese person can't starve to death. Even if you weighed 400lbs, it's not like you can drink water and eat a multivitamin and be healthy because your body will just live off of fat.
It's too bad humans can't hibernate
We'd fatten up over the holidays and come out in Spring lean and skinny! 0 -
"Starvation Mode" is not possible for someone who is overweight. If you haven't met your weight loss goal you will not go into a starvation mode. You have to much fat stored in your body to do this. Your body will simply use your stored fat as energy resulting in calorie lost...resulting in losing weight. It is really a logical thing that we think too hard about. I think somewhere we just want to justify eating more which is probably why we are overweight. Once you have reached a healthy weight...then starvation mode becomes a factor. I am 6.2 and weight 264. I am maintaining a 1510 calorie diet. I work out about 3 times a week right now...(trying to improve that daily number). Of course when I work out my net calorie is lower than 1510. Sometimes even though I eat three meals a day and two snacks I don't reached 1510. However I have lost 11lbs in less than a month. I view it as more calories out....My body is not going to go in a starvation mode I still weigh 264lbs.....It has plenty of stored fat to survive. If you eat 1510 and work out to lose 300 and then go back and eat 300 your net loss is 0 calories. Remeber calories in - calories out equals weight lost.
Scientifically speaking, this is false. Starvation mode can be reached by almost any person theoretically. It takes a much larger deficit for someone who is obese, but it can still be reached. which is why doctors who assign VLCD's only assign them for a few weeks. Please read the scientific studies posted by the OP, they show that hormone changes happen to the body no matter whether you are obese, or at a healthy weight, the only thing that changes is the deficit required to force these changes.0 -
Both of you are abosultely right...I wasn't trying to imply that it was impossible but as you stated it takes a MUCH HIGHER deficit. More than likely we are not reaching this deficit by exercising unless you are some type of professional athlete. So I was just suggusting when you are significantly overweight "starvation mode" is reallY ONE LESS thing you have to worry about.0
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You are abosultely right...I wasn't trying to imply that it was impossible but as you stated it takes a MUCH HIGHER deficient. More than likely we are not reaching this deficient by exercising unless you are some type of professional athlete. So I was just suggusting when you are significantly overweight "starvation mode" is reallY ONE LESS thing you have to worry about.
I understand what you were trying to say. The problem is there are a lot of very inexperienced users on MFP, and some things are taken very literally on here. You really have to be precise with a topic like this or else it is inevitably misinterpreted. If you say it's impossible for someone who is overweight, well remember, overweight means technically (for a woman) anything above 28% body fat, and a woman with 29% body fat can absolutely enter starvation mode by creating a large deficit. It wouldn't be that big of a stretch to have that be misinterpreted. See where I'm coming from?0 -
Bump for later.0
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If you eat 1510 and work out to lose 300 and then go back and eat 300 your net loss is 0 calories. Remeber calories in - calories out equals weight lost.
Also need to point out that is is not correct. If MFP is recommending you eat 1510, you should be eating 1510 NET as far as MFP is concerned (GOAL FOOD -EXECISE=NET, you should be aiming to make NET match the GOAL number, that's just how the tool is designed).
Just to give you an idea, I checked out what my maintenence cals would be at my different "goal weights" (because I'm not sure where I'll be most comfortable) and at 5'3", my body would need 1600-1620 calories to MAINTAIN at 130 -135lbs. The 1510 that MFP is recommending for you includes a deficit, so that if you don't workout, you will still lose. Right now you are overweight enough that you can get away with not eating at least some (if not all/most) of your exercise cals and yes your body is working from it's fat stores and all that good stuff, but you lose body fat there will come a point where you will need to eat these back.
If you want to see your "maintenence calories" go to "My Home" tab, click "Goals" and on the top right hand side you should see the cals MFP estimates you burn on a daily basis, before exercise.0 -
"Starvation Mode" is not possible for someone who is overweight. If you haven't met your weight loss goal you will not go into a starvation mode. You have to much fat stored in your body to do this. Your body will simply use your stored fat as energy resulting in calorie lost...resulting in losing weight. It is really a logical thing that we think too hard about. I think somewhere we just want to justify eating more which is probably why we are overweight. Once you have reached a healthy weight...then starvation mode becomes a factor. I am 6.2 and weight 264. I am maintaining a 1510 calorie diet. I work out about 3 times a week right now...(trying to improve that daily number). Of course when I work out my net calorie is lower than 1510. Sometimes even though I eat three meals a day and two snacks I don't reached 1510. However I have lost 11lbs in less than a month. I view it as more calories out....My body is not going to go in a starvation mode I still weigh 264lbs.....It has plenty of stored fat to survive. If you eat 1510 and work out to lose 300 and then go back and eat 300 your net loss is 0 calories. Remeber calories in - calories out equals weight lost.
I continue to be baffled as to why people don't understand how MFP works.
MFP creates a built in caloric deficit, based on your chosen loss per week goal, regardless of exercise. Your MFP deficit is NOT created through exercise. So, if you choose a 1 lb per week loss goal, MFP creates a deficit of 500 cals from your maintenance cals (BMR + Activity). This deficit remains whether you exercise or not. If you then exercise, and do not replace the cals added for exercise, you make the deficit larger. A larger deficit is not necessarily desirable.
Rapid weight loss carries many risks, the most notable of which is weight regain. In addition to this, all the issues Banks referred to above.
Lack of hunger when at a large deficit is actually a signal of slower metabolic rate and an effect of poor eating habits. When you've had poor eating habits for a while, the body adapts and your body may no longer be sending reliable hunger cues, and your brain may not be recognizing them. Overeating and undereating are both poor eating habits, and it takes just as long to fix them (and their effects) as it did to get them set. And going from overeating to undereating is hardly a logical solution.0 -
I think some of the problem also lies in the BMR itself. What MFP calculates for me is around 600-700 calories MORE than any other site I have found that calculates BMR. That in itself can lead to a big problem! Again, I love the site, I just don't take all the calculations here as gospel.0
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Lack of hunger when at a large deficit is actually a signal of slower metabolic rate and an effect of poor eating habits. When you've had poor eating habits for a while, the body adapts and your body may no longer be sending reliable hunger cues, and your brain may not be recognizing them. Overeating and undereating are both poor eating habits, and it takes just as long to fix them (and their effects) as it did to get them set. And going from overeating to undereating is hardly a logical solution.
*high fives you*0 -
I think some of the problem also lies in the BMR itself. What MFP calculates for me is around 600-700 calories MORE than any other site I have found that calculates BMR. That in itself can lead to a big problem! Again, I love the site, I just don't take all the calculations here as gospel.
MFP calculates my BMR as less than most sites. Even so, it's not more than 100-120 calories. You sure you aren't confusing BMR with Maintenance?0 -
Bumping! Thanks. One minute I think I get it, the next I feel confused! And other times I'm just scared to do anything!
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This thread needs to be *thumbtacked*!
:drinker:0 -
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sometimes i feel guilty about eating those calories. i feel so afraid to OVER eat, that i do not think about under-eating. thanks for the post
I'm like Smiley.. I feel like I'm over eating 0 -
Starvation mode is very real.
Yes there is a difference between severe starvation where your body eats organs and muscles for energy, but there is a form of it that applies to dieting. Anyone who doesn't believe it, just doesn't get it. It's happened to me numerous times.
Our body uses the net calories, and if you are always -1,000 calories a day for a few weeks, guess what? You are starving. You have a negative calorie balance. There is no difference between someone who burns 1,500 calories a day and only eat 500 and a person who burns 2,500 calories a day because of exercise and only eats 1,500 calories. They are both a net of -1,000!
The hormone leptin that brings us into starvation mode is in our fat cells and it goes up when we eat a surplus and down when we eat a deficit. When leptin is low, we have cravings and a slowed metabolism. Some people obese people have a leptin tolerance much like people with diabetes and even when their leptin is high they still crave foods.
I beat starvation mode, it's really very simple. Eat a deficit six days a week and a surplus one day a week and starvation mode will be a thing of the past. I call it "Spike Day" because it spikes up your leptin and your metabolism, but it has to be a true surplus, you don't want to exercise on that day. The goal is not use fat for energy and allow your body to store some calories in glycogen.
Starvation mode sucks, but you can trick your brain.0 -
There's more to consider than just the physical effects of undereating, too.
My ex-sister in law was anorexic for a time. Right around the time she left my brother. She wasn't eating, was losing, but was still overweight. But the lack of nutrients made her unhealthy, mentally AND physically. And it not only caused her to make poor choices food-wise, but with her life, leaving her husband and 3 year old son, and getting involved in drugs and a neo-nazi skinhead who shortly thereafter went to jail for vehicular manslaughter.
Thankfully, she pulled herself up and changed her life, and is now happily married again. And actually on really good terms with my brother and his wife, and the rest of my family. She was fortunate to have a supportive family - and even a supportive ex! - who helped her get back on track.
But you don't need to be skinny to be anorexic and feel the effects.0 -
bumpworthy thread!0
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There's more to consider than just the physical effects of undereating, too.
My ex-sister in law was anorexic for a time. Right around the time she left my brother. She wasn't eating, was losing, but was still overweight. But the lack of nutrients made her unhealthy, mentally AND physically. And it not only caused her to make poor choices food-wise, but with her life, leaving her husband and 3 year old son, and getting involved in drugs and a neo-nazi skinhead who shortly thereafter went to jail for vehicular manslaughter.
Thankfully, she pulled herself up and changed her life, and is now happily married again. And actually on really good terms with my brother and his wife, and the rest of my family. She was fortunate to have a supportive family - and even a supportive ex! - who helped her get back on track.
But you don't need to be skinny to be anorexic and feel the effects.
So very true. If any of you guys get really bored, go to the library and see if they have a copy of the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. It's really long, but I gotta tell you, the scariest part (aside from 40 % reduction in metabolic rate) is the psychological trauma that these people went through. And I'm not just talking about DURING the experiment, some of these guys had issues with food years after this test was over. And that's with underfeeding, not true fasting, these guys were getting 1500 calories a day! It was pretty crazy (no pun intended).0 -
I am glad this thread was started, but after reading it, I am just more confused then ever about what I need to do for myself. I am no stranger to health and fitness. i have lost over 115 pounds and kept it off for over 10 years. About 6 months ago I finally got down to a good weight for me, and stayed there for about 6 months, then in January after running the marathon, I gained about 5 pounds back. I have been trying for the past 2 months to get the weight off and I have had no luck at all. One week I did lose .4, but then the next week I was up a pound. A month ago I bought the bodymedia system to see exactly what I was burning. Since that time I have not lost anythng. I generally burn between 2100-2800 calories per day, work out 6 days per week, and usually run average 500 calorie/day defecit. Some days its 300 calorie defecit, some days 900 calories. I drink tons of water, watch my sodium, and even started a brand new exercise program (Insanity) a week ago to try to shock my system. My clothes dont fit any better either. I even have the bodymedia system set up to default for 10%less calories in case I underestimate (even though i weigh/measure/and account for every bite that goes in mymouth). I have tried eating more one week, eating less another, no luck no matter what I do. Any thoughts/suggestions/insight????0
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You are abosultely right...I wasn't trying to imply that it was impossible but as you stated it takes a MUCH HIGHER deficient. More than likely we are not reaching this deficient by exercising unless you are some type of professional athlete. So I was just suggusting when you are significantly overweight "starvation mode" is reallY ONE LESS thing you have to worry about.
I understand what you were trying to say. The problem is there are a lot of very inexperienced users on MFP, and some things are taken very literally on here. You really have to be precise with a topic like this or else it is inevitably misinterpreted. If you say it's impossible for someone who is overweight, well remember, overweight means technically (for a woman) anything above 28% body fat, and a woman with 29% body fat can absolutely enter starvation mode by creating a large deficit. It wouldn't be that big of a stretch to have that be misinterpreted. See where I'm coming from?
I'm encountering that exact problem. I'm in starvation mode at the moment and I have 28.2% body fast last time I checked. I'm going to focus on eating back my exercise calories so my deficit isn't so large. Before I'd be netting under 800 calories a day, usually worse.0 -
I never eat mine
obviously nothing has kept me from losing.
Unless you are doing some serious strength training (weight lifting) you are losing a lot of muscle mass, too. Dieting and cardio exercise both cause lean muscle mass loss along with fat loss.
At heavier weights you will lose fat pretty quick. But as you drop weight and get closer to your goal and your fat stores drop your body will slow down the fat burning and dig into lean muscle mass for fuel.0 -
Last comment on this subject...We can discuss this topic without end concerning "starvation mode" and whether or not you should eat the calories you expend during exercise. My final example is the tv show the Biggest Loser. These contestants are usually obese. They work out almost 8 hours a day and still remain on a diet. They don't eat back the calories they expend and thus produce a huge deficit which results in huge weekly weight loss totals.0
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I am glad this thread was started, but after reading it, I am just more confused then ever about what I need to do for myself. I am no stranger to health and fitness. i have lost over 115 pounds and kept it off for over 10 years. About 6 months ago I finally got down to a good weight for me, and stayed there for about 6 months, then in January after running the marathon, I gained about 5 pounds back. I have been trying for the past 2 months to get the weight off and I have had no luck at all. One week I did lose .4, but then the next week I was up a pound. A month ago I bought the bodymedia system to see exactly what I was burning. Since that time I have not lost anythng. I generally burn between 2100-2800 calories per day, work out 6 days per week, and usually run average 500 calorie/day defecit. Some days its 300 calorie defecit, some days 900 calories. I drink tons of water, watch my sodium, and even started a brand new exercise program (Insanity) a week ago to try to shock my system. My clothes dont fit any better either. I even have the bodymedia system set up to default for 10%less calories in case I underestimate (even though i weigh/measure/and account for every bite that goes in mymouth). I have tried eating more one week, eating less another, no luck no matter what I do. Any thoughts/suggestions/insight????
You're already at a healthy weight. It's going to be very hard for you to lose weight. You might want to focus on heavy weight lifting and ease up on cardio a bit. If you gain some muscle mass that will increase your metabolism and you will burn more body fat during rest, through normal activity and even sleeping. You will have to be willing to step away from the scale though. Muscle is much denser than fat and you might gain a little on the scale but you will lose body fat, not lean muscle mass. That's what we all want, right? To burn off fat, not lose weight.0
This discussion has been closed.
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