Thoughts on veganism?
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RedheadQuine wrote: »I haven't read all 8 pages here but I eat a whole foods plant based diet. I say I'm vegan sometimes just because that's a more familiar term to a lot of people, but it's not for ethical reasons. Since going plant based my fibromyalgia has disappeared. I also have incredibly low cholesterol (so low the NHS flagged it up as abnormal - but the GP laughed when he saw why and said they rarely see numbers so low and it's a very good thing!), blood pressure, am not deficient in anything (had recent full blood workup), donate blood (so iron level is fine). I don't supplement with anything except the very occasional B12 just to be on the safe side. I think being plant based means you can get your nutrients - after all, where do we think cows get their protein, etc? Plants! But you can be vegan and eat junk (oreos, tvp, fries, etc) and not be healthy or be deficient in nutrients. To be fair, I think a lot of meat eaters are deficient in nutrients... I see some people's diaries and honestly wonder how they get any vitamins because there are no vegetables or fruit in them at all really! (Bit of a tangent, sorry!)
If anyone wants to add me that eats a similar diet, feel free.
I have a friend with fibromyalgia, who is lactose intolerant and gluten intolerant and she used to GAPS diet (definitely not vegan) with success. Fibromyalgia is still pretty nebulous and I wouldn't go marketing veganism as a cure. As has been said before, how much of your health is dependent on the "whole foods" part? Did you eat a whole foods diet before you went vegan? Not asking you to defend you choice to be vegan, but I don't think you can reliably point to cutting out meat and animal products as the absolute reason for better health when you consider all the factors involved.
Cholesterol is important for your body to function, by the way. If you had abnormally low levels, that could be a bad sign for how you synthesize/regulate cholesterol. Don't know why your GP was laughing about it being flagged.thelazydandelion wrote:Sorry feeling insecure this evening. And I've seen that video
I should have said most animals, I should know better than to generalize
What I thought was most telling was that it was a bear in captivity: a bear that is probably bored most of the time, gets plenty of food, no predators or competition. It makes you wonder if a wild bear would behave this way. I doubt it. But I wonder how compassion in different species depends on their level of comfort and security (including humans).0 -
I maintained a vegan diet for three years. I felt fine when I was on it until I started long distance running. When I hit high mileage, I lost a huge amount of muscle mass and had a very hard time getting the protein I needed (protein levels for athletes, not protein levels for everyday eating which are easy enough to get in a vegan diet) without taking eating too much soy or protein powder or taking in too many calories from other sources (beans, etc.)
In the end, I decided to reincorporate eggs and dairy and eat meat no more than once per week. I know there are a lot of people who can train hard on a vegan diet, but I just didn't find that it worked for me. I feel that my endurance increased and it is much easier to maintain my muscle mass now.
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I doubt it, as animals do not have compassion. I know it's natural for us to want to do, but we should not anthropomorphize. (I do it all the time with my cat and dog though.)What I thought was most telling was that it was a bear in captivity: a bear that is probably bored most of the time, gets plenty of food, no predators or competition. It makes you wonder if a wild bear would behave this way. I doubt it. But I wonder how compassion in different species depends on their level of comfort and security (including humans).
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I have a friend with fibromyalgia, who is lactose intolerant and gluten intolerant and she used to GAPS diet (definitely not vegan) with success. Fibromyalgia is still pretty nebulous and I wouldn't go marketing veganism as a cure. As has been said before, how much of your health is dependent on the "whole foods" part? Did you eat a whole foods diet before you went vegan? Not asking you to defend you choice to be vegan, but I don't think you can reliably point to cutting out meat and animal products as the absolute reason for better health when you consider all the factors involved.
Cholesterol is important for your body to function, by the way. If you had abnormally low levels, that could be a bad sign for how you synthesize/regulate cholesterol. Don't know why your GP was laughing about it being flagged.
I have told many people that I think a whole foods diet even with animal products could help fibromyalgia. I certainly think it's worth a try, you've (generic you) nothing to lose in any case! I've never "touted as a cure" - only said, it worked for me, so it might be worth considering.
I'm aware that cholesterol is important for the body to function, and I'm not sure if you're in the UK but it's the ratio of cholesterol that was incredibly low. The GP laughed because the system flagged it up simply because it's lower than the 'average range', but is in no way unhealthy or problematic. My 'good' cholesterol is fantastic and when I had my health check I was told I am the picture of health. Considering that my health used to be anything but, I am pretty pleased with that - and again, I think whole foods is more important than 'veganism' here. But I personally have decided that for me, for now, eating (mostly) whole foods plant based is the way forward.
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I tried veganism for ethical reasons. While I wish I could go back, my health suffered immensely and I needed to return to eating meat. Now I feel a million times better and I'm much healthier. But that is what was right for me. It doesn't mean it's right for everyone...0
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I eat a lot of fruits and veggies, but I have no interest in vegan.0
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I was a vegan for a while but have put eggs and fish into my diet because I don't have the time to eat 175g of vegetable protein.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is that a vegan diet is the healthiest thing you can do as long as (and this is the sticker) you are meeting your macros and getting your micros.
I have never felt healthier than when eating vegan, its an incredible feeling, so much energy, no little life niggles that were so common I didn't even notice them, no headaches, more concentration, more endurance, strength, stamina....
It takes a lot of research or you'll end up depriving yourself of something essential, but really its not that hard and the benefits are well worth it.
The hardest thing is the constant harassment you get from meat eaters. Its surprisingly extreme!
Go for it!0 -
I doubt it, as animals do not have compassion. I know it's natural for us to want to do, but we should not anthropomorphize. (I do it all the time with my cat and dog though.)What I thought was most telling was that it was a bear in captivity: a bear that is probably bored most of the time, gets plenty of food, no predators or competition. It makes you wonder if a wild bear would behave this way. I doubt it. But I wonder how compassion in different species depends on their level of comfort and security (including humans).
It's even more anthropocentric to believe that we'd be the only creatures capable of compassion, especially since there is evidence of compassion from other animals everywhere. I'm not sure why there is such a vehement denial of it except for all the moral questions it raises. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Occam's razor or something.
This story was pretty cool (also redeems cats a bit!). You can ignore the flowery talk of the article and just watch the behavior: http://www.ibtimes.co.in/furry-friendship-stray-cat-befriends-blind-dog-leads-him-around-tail-video-610654
This is a good article on the subject as well, if you have an interest in getting comfy to read all of it: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/magazine/zoo-animals-and-their-discontents.html?_r=0RedheadQuine wrote:I'm aware that cholesterol is important for the body to function, and I'm not sure if you're in the UK but it's the ratio of cholesterol that was incredibly low. The GP laughed because the system flagged it up simply because it's lower than the 'average range', but is in no way unhealthy or problematic. My 'good' cholesterol is fantastic and when I had my health check I was told I am the picture of health.
That clears it up. Thank you for explaining. 0 -
Well, we have to explore and admit the fact that compassion is a huggy feel good construct of our own making.
I'm far too sober these days to delve too deeply into that conversation. Heh.
There are examples of animals doing things that we think of as compassionate acts, but as they aren't compassionate creatures, we would have to look directly at what their brains are doing and how it stimulates them positively in order to even begin constructing an answer.
I once met a raven that waddled and quacked like a duck, a tourist asked if it was a duck. EXAMPLE DESTROYED COURTESY OF A ZOO IN SAN FRANCISCO! 0 -
I've been a vegan for 14 years or so raised two boys as vegans. Both boys are very active, very healthy. 1 boy played baseball at a high level. 1 boy runs, bikes, hikes very actively. I find it interesting when I hear people say that you can't be an athlete, healthy and vegan.
But anyways, why I became a vegan. My husband was diagnosed with kidney failure. Was told that many people become vegetarian/vegan so that their bodies don't have to work so hard. For me it just stuck. Over the years reasons change, but that is why I became one.
At this point both boys are old (19,17) enough to make their own choice and both are still vegan. 0 -
Well, we have to explore and admit the fact that compassion is a huggy feel good construct of our own making.
That's just avoiding the question. If that's true, then compassion doesn't exist for humans, and then apparently there is nothing to be compared. Why do we have this construct at all? If it is a construct that does serve a purpose or define a particular thing, why would we not extend that construct to other creatures if we see behavior that fits our definition? Perhaps "hunger" is also a construct. No other creatures feel hunger except us. Yes, they eat, and get quite aggressive about it if deprived of food, but how can we say they are "hungry"?
I see no point in the extreme "anthropomorphizing!!" fear that becomes an obvious cover for defending feelings of superiority and specialness as humans. It doesn't make sense to deny that animals have feelings, or can do things that we like to prize as unique to us, when there is no evidence that it is unique to us (only cries that we don't know for sure because we can't sit down and have tea and conversation with said animal, which somehow morphs into "of course they don't since we don't know how to measure it!"... in what other branch of science do we have that much of a defeatist attitude?).
There is also the elephant that destroyed a wall of a house on a rampage in India, only to hear a baby inside squealing, whom returned to the house and pulled the rubble off the baby before leaving. But elephants can't possibly show compassion towards human infants, or compassion at all. Obviously there is some other obtuse reason for the elephant to behave this way. Like a blood clot maybe. Or maybe that is why I stop and ask someone who is crying if they are ok. A blood clot.There are examples of animals doing things that we think of as compassionate acts, but as they aren't compassionate creatures, we would have to look directly at what their brains are doing and how it stimulates them positively in order to even begin constructing an answer.
I once met a raven that waddled and quacked like a duck, a tourist asked if it was a duck. EXAMPLE DESTROYED COURTESY OF A ZOO IN SAN FRANCISCO!
But they don't look like ducks, they look like ravens, and that tourist was an idiot.I'm far too sober these days to delve too deeply into that conversation. Heh.
Fair enough. :disagree: Back to recycling the same four or five opinions on veganism.
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smelanie504 wrote: »Biologically, I don't buy into the claims that we're not meant to eat meat/consume dairy. Just my humble opinion.
Me, either. I just never understand the vegans that try to convince us that we are built to be vegan. Biology says otherwise. It would be more accurate, I think, to say we're adaptable. I don't doubt I could survive off a vegan diet, but that does not mean a non-vegan diet is automatically less healthy.
I tried being vegan once. For ethical reasons. It didn't work. My protein and iron levels were constantly low (I donated plasma - I knew, without a doubt, they were low). I struggle enough getting protein eating meat. Take all meat out of the equation, and dairy, too... and I barely get any at all.
I've, also, had people try to shame me recently back into veganism. Which is NOT fair. The shame tactics some people use suck. I'm aware not all vegans do, but the ones that do are pretty vocal. I am in recovery from an eating disorder. The last thing I need is an excuse to restrict something again. But these vocal ones don't get that. They just assume that a vegan diet will be healthy and "work" for everyone. Without considering the fact that not everyone can afford a vegan diet, not everyone has access to the same alternatives to meat as them, and not everyone *should* take up such a restrictive diet (even if it is for ethical reasons).
The vegans that respect my decision to eat meat, though? I have a lot of respect for them. Same as everyone else. Do what you believe is right to support the ethical treatment of animals.0 -
april32many wrote: »My point is that good, whole, local food is accessible and I eat it and everything else (lots of food movements are extremely classists and unsustainable for poor folks or large families).
Nice for this to be acknowledged. The unhealthiest I've been diet-wise was when I was the poorest; and living among other poor people, you see how this happens.
I was 16 years old and gained 30 lbs within six months when I was homeless because of a diet of all canned food, prison trays that were donated, instant everything, and whenever I got an extra dollar I'd spend it on a bag of candy (back when a bag of candy was a dollar) and binge on it.
The best meal I had that I remember was when the Hard Rock Cafe did a sponsorship meal for Christmas and gave us breakfast. REAL eggs (not instant egg powder), sausage, fresh orange juice, O'Brien potatoes. I was in heaven.
It's true... if you have the luxury of choosing all of your food and making those decisions without duress, you should be thankful for it. Luckily a lot of food programs for homeless people are emphasizing getting them fresh produce, and now here are vouchers even for farmer's markets, which is wonderful.
Oh, this is so true.
People underestimate the effects poverty can have on diet. When I was overweight, the poorer I was, the worse it got. Prior to seeking help for it, we didn't get money often. So we didn't get food often. So, when we DID get money to get food, we'd buy the cheapest (usually most unhealthy) things that would last the longest. And... sadly, it never lasted long because you'd get really hungry and eat it in one sitting. Donated food is usually canned foods, breads, boxes of baked goods to make, and the occasional box of hamburger helper. Then there's the stuff that is cheap, often donated, and not filling at all. Like vienna sausages.
Which was part of my point. Not everyone has access to the alternatives many vegans do have access to. I am still poor, technically. We only have internet because my mom is disabled and has to work from it. So, it was that or homephone. We went with it. A vegan diet - done healthily - would not be possible in our situation. Those who can do it, really should be thankful for having the luxury.0 -
And you can add most beer to the above list ( fish bladders used for processing)
Wouldn't it be out anyway? Because of the yeast?
Yeast is more akin to a mold to be very generic, it's definitely not an animal.
Isinglass isn't really used in non BMC beers. If it is a craft beer, they probably don't use isinglass, as there isn't a need to get crystal clear. Bud, Miller, Coors however use isinglass for a few reasons, one being cost, another is consistent product, and as a method of reducing flavor in the finished product.
Stick with good beers and it's not an issue.
There are almost no commercial brewers in the US that use isinglass (and none of the large ones for certain). It's much more expensive than PVPP.
There used to be some British brewers who used it (about 10 years ago when I took the IBD exam there was a question about it so they were still using it) but I'd guess even that's decreased due to the cost. Maybe cask-conditioning it's still used?
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ohsweetballs wrote: »I've been vegan for two years, vegetarian for a decade. Ethical reasons as well. I feel amazing mentally, lots more mental clarity. Physically, I feel 'lighter' if that makes sense - my digestive tract feels cleaner, not as heavy. Hard to explain. But I've only seen good things. Iron is fine (I donate blood), B12 is fine, plenty of protein. Feels good man.
Did you notice a difference when going from vegetarian to vegan?0 -
If OP is worried about the ethical treatment of animals, perhaps a pesco pollo vegetarian regime would fit the bill? I did not know what that was, but I have learned...
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-different-kinds-of-vegetarians.html
Also, red meat is expensive!! How about a Frankenburger?? (The sucker looks good, but apparently they haven't perfected the process yet, so it costs $20 to make each burger patty.) I'd consider switching to Frankenbeef if it cooked the same in recipes.
http://www.cnet.com/news/the-veggie-burger-that-bleeds-like-real-meat/0 -
If a vegan does crossfit. Which one do they tell you about first?0
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