When did 'chemical' become a bad word?
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goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
Man I LOVE the brownies in those!-1 -
FDA definition of natural foods (actually there is no definition but a guideline). I think there is leeway there for man made additives, no?
From a food science perspective, it is difficult to define a food product that is 'natural' because the food has probably been processed and is no longer the product of the earth. That said, FDA has not developed a definition for use of the term natural or its derivatives. However, the agency has not objected to the use of the term if the food does not contain added color, artificial flavors, or synthetic substances.
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peter56765 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »richardheath wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »richardheath wrote: »Labeling chemicals (as in added, or "man-made") as bad is part of the Naturalistic Fallacy: the idea that natural = good and unnatural = bad.
Couple of problems with this.
(1) Natural things, such as arsenic or digitoxin can most definitely be "bad" (in the sense that they will kill you).
(2) Humans are part of nature. We are not some supernatural creature. Therefore, whatever we make is actually also part of nature.
(3) Man-made chemicals are indistinguishable from their naturally occurring forms. Fructose made in the lab is the same as Fructose from a ripe heirloom fruit. Penicillin from a lab is the same as secreted by the Penicillium mold.
(4) Inanimate objects do have a moral sense, and so cannot be "good" or "bad". We have to take them in context and dosage. That digitoxin can be used to treat cancer (in a very carefully controlled dosage, which is easier done with a highly purified "unnatural" form than by feeding the patient foxgloves).
I think if you look up the definition of the word "nature", you'll find not everything above is true.
I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
Nature is the world outside of man. Nothing man-made is natural. Why? Because that's what the words mean. You can suggest an alternate definition, but unless it becomes the official definition it's just a misuse of the word. Which is kind of funny in this thread.
Pretty much every food you eat has been altered by man in some way. Before we got our grubby hands on them, "natural" corncobs were very small, apples were small, hard and sour, almonds were poisonous, sheep would attack you, and cows didn't have huge udders that produce far more milk than a calf could ever drink. Unless you are a hunter-gatherer, to a very large extent there are no "natural" foods anymore.
Even outside of our influence, nature isn't the elegant homeostatic system some people think it is. All species are constantly competing and evolving and extinction is a common occurrence. Dutch Elm Disease has destroyed most elm trees. European cave bears didn't survive the last Ice Age. Mammals ate dinosaur eggs. Countless plants, animals and single cell organisms have risen to prominence and than were out-competed by newer, better adapted organisms. Man is just the result of yet another species adapting to its ever changing environment.
There is no way to eat natural because nature itself is always changing and the very act of you being alive changes nature. The food you eat was produced by someone selecting one species to produce over another, and then systematically clearing land to produce that species. In the process, the existing species on the land were destroyed and the habitat was changed. Some organisms can adapt to that change. Others become marginalized or go extinct.
Um, okay? None of that changes the meaning of the words nature or natural.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »peter56765 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »richardheath wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »richardheath wrote: »Labeling chemicals (as in added, or "man-made") as bad is part of the Naturalistic Fallacy: the idea that natural = good and unnatural = bad.
Couple of problems with this.
(1) Natural things, such as arsenic or digitoxin can most definitely be "bad" (in the sense that they will kill you).
(2) Humans are part of nature. We are not some supernatural creature. Therefore, whatever we make is actually also part of nature.
(3) Man-made chemicals are indistinguishable from their naturally occurring forms. Fructose made in the lab is the same as Fructose from a ripe heirloom fruit. Penicillin from a lab is the same as secreted by the Penicillium mold.
(4) Inanimate objects do have a moral sense, and so cannot be "good" or "bad". We have to take them in context and dosage. That digitoxin can be used to treat cancer (in a very carefully controlled dosage, which is easier done with a highly purified "unnatural" form than by feeding the patient foxgloves).
I think if you look up the definition of the word "nature", you'll find not everything above is true.
I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
Nature is the world outside of man. Nothing man-made is natural. Why? Because that's what the words mean. You can suggest an alternate definition, but unless it becomes the official definition it's just a misuse of the word. Which is kind of funny in this thread.
Pretty much every food you eat has been altered by man in some way. Before we got our grubby hands on them, "natural" corncobs were very small, apples were small, hard and sour, almonds were poisonous, sheep would attack you, and cows didn't have huge udders that produce far more milk than a calf could ever drink. Unless you are a hunter-gatherer, to a very large extent there are no "natural" foods anymore.
Even outside of our influence, nature isn't the elegant homeostatic system some people think it is. All species are constantly competing and evolving and extinction is a common occurrence. Dutch Elm Disease has destroyed most elm trees. European cave bears didn't survive the last Ice Age. Mammals ate dinosaur eggs. Countless plants, animals and single cell organisms have risen to prominence and than were out-competed by newer, better adapted organisms. Man is just the result of yet another species adapting to its ever changing environment.
There is no way to eat natural because nature itself is always changing and the very act of you being alive changes nature. The food you eat was produced by someone selecting one species to produce over another, and then systematically clearing land to produce that species. In the process, the existing species on the land were destroyed and the habitat was changed. Some organisms can adapt to that change. Others become marginalized or go extinct.
Um, okay? None of that changes the meaning of the words nature or natural.
Context Lost.-1 -
goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
Whole Foods where you spend $8 for a pound of "organic" strawberries when instead you could have gone to the local Kroger or Safeway and bought the same exact thing (brand and everything) for half the price...
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goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?
Honestly?
Probably not. If it's edible (by which I mean tastes decent enough that you wouldn't spit it out), it's most likely either a cultivated variety that's run to seed, or a naturally occurring hybrid of one of those cultivated varieties.
You see, the interesting thing is that not only are the fruits and vegetables that humans have hybridized more tasty to humans ... they're often also more showy and tastier to animals, birds, and insects. So the pollen and the seeds are widely dispersed. I'm not sure you could find vegetables or fruit that are unaffected by human cultivation anymore.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?
Honestly?
Probably not. If it's edible (by which I mean tastes decent enough that you wouldn't spit it out), it's most likely either a cultivated variety that's run to seed, or a naturally occurring hybrid of one of those cultivated varieties.
You see, the interesting thing is that not only are the fruits and vegetables that humans have hybridized more tasty to humans ... they're often also more showy and tastier to animals, birds, and insects. So the pollen and the seeds are widely dispersed. I'm not sure you could find vegetables or fruit that are unaffected by human cultivation anymore.
Just off the top of my head, hucklberries and fiddleheads. Both can't be cultivated effectively, and wild stocks are where almost ALL commercial product comes from.
That's just off the top of my head.0 -
Even if I accept that "human-made" and "unnatural" are synonymous (which I'm not ready to concede, but let's move on), the other parts of my argument stand. Being made in a lab does not automatically mean that something is bad, anymore than being grown in a field means it is good.
But I will accept that what I called the naturalistic fallacy is in fact not. I should have said an appeal to nature instead.
From the Wiki page:General form of this type of argument:[2]
N is natural.
Therefore, N is good or right.
U is unnatural.
Therefore, U is bad or wrong.
In some contexts, the use of the terms of "nature" and "natural" can be vague, leading to unintended associations with other concepts. The word "natural" can also be a loaded term – much like the word "normal", in some contexts, it can carry an implicit value judgement. An appeal to nature would thus beg the question, because the conclusion is entailed by the premise.[2]
Opinions differ regarding appeal to nature in rational argument. Sometimes, it can be taken as a rule of thumb that admits some exceptions, but nonetheless proves to be of use in one or more specific topics, (or in general). As a rule of thumb, natural or unnatural facts provide presumptively reliable good or bad values, barring evidence to the contrary. Failure to consider such evidence commits a fallacy of accident under this view.[2][3]
Julian Baggini explains that "[E]ven if we can agree that some things are natural and some are not, what follows from this? The answer is: nothing. There is no factual reason to suppose that what is natural is good (or at least better) and what is unnatural is bad (or at least worse)."[4]
(my bolding--Ed)0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?
Honestly?
Probably not. If it's edible (by which I mean tastes decent enough that you wouldn't spit it out), it's most likely either a cultivated variety that's run to seed, or a naturally occurring hybrid of one of those cultivated varieties.
You see, the interesting thing is that not only are the fruits and vegetables that humans have hybridized more tasty to humans ... they're often also more showy and tastier to animals, birds, and insects. So the pollen and the seeds are widely dispersed. I'm not sure you could find vegetables or fruit that are unaffected by human cultivation anymore.
I'm not sure that makes them not natural. If a man-altered seed is naturally planted and grown for years, decades or even centuries, is it still not natural? Once tainted, is it never again part of nature? But it's an interesting discussion.0 -
richardheath wrote: »Even if I accept that "human-made" and "unnatural" are synonymous (which I'm not ready to concede, but let's move on), the other parts of my argument stand. Being made in a lab does not automatically mean that something is bad, anymore than being grown in a field means it is good.
Of course. I'm sure there are some zealots who would argue that point, but I still believe there are a far greater number who simply don't want to have to research and investigate every food additive, and would rather just avoid them "just in case".0 -
And honestly, as I said in another thread..... who gives a rip? Again, people, you get one shot at this. Why not eat what you want, do what you want, live how you want. You are only accountable to yourself. Eat some chemical-laden food if that's what you are comfortable with. Eat all-natural from Whole Foods (or the Wild Wood if you like) if that's what you are comfortable with. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone. While it's fun to debate like this on a website, it's unlikely we'll change each other's minds, and that's okay. Just be the best person you can, be kind to other people, and like yourself.
Nothing you eat is bad. Wasting this one life you get is bad.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?
Honestly?
Probably not. If it's edible (by which I mean tastes decent enough that you wouldn't spit it out), it's most likely either a cultivated variety that's run to seed, or a naturally occurring hybrid of one of those cultivated varieties.
You see, the interesting thing is that not only are the fruits and vegetables that humans have hybridized more tasty to humans ... they're often also more showy and tastier to animals, birds, and insects. So the pollen and the seeds are widely dispersed. I'm not sure you could find vegetables or fruit that are unaffected by human cultivation anymore.
Just off the top of my head, hucklberries and fiddleheads. Both can't be cultivated effectively, and wild stocks are where almost ALL commercial product comes from.
That's just off the top of my head.
Makes sense that things that are really difficult to cultivate would fall under that heading.
Went to look up huckleberries out of curiosity. Funny that the first hit that comes up is a pdf from the University of Iowa on how to cultivate your own huckleberry bushes.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?
Honestly?
Probably not. If it's edible (by which I mean tastes decent enough that you wouldn't spit it out), it's most likely either a cultivated variety that's run to seed, or a naturally occurring hybrid of one of those cultivated varieties.
You see, the interesting thing is that not only are the fruits and vegetables that humans have hybridized more tasty to humans ... they're often also more showy and tastier to animals, birds, and insects. So the pollen and the seeds are widely dispersed. I'm not sure you could find vegetables or fruit that are unaffected by human cultivation anymore.
Just off the top of my head, hucklberries and fiddleheads. Both can't be cultivated effectively, and wild stocks are where almost ALL commercial product comes from.
That's just off the top of my head.
What about paw paws?0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?
Honestly?
Probably not. If it's edible (by which I mean tastes decent enough that you wouldn't spit it out), it's most likely either a cultivated variety that's run to seed, or a naturally occurring hybrid of one of those cultivated varieties.
You see, the interesting thing is that not only are the fruits and vegetables that humans have hybridized more tasty to humans ... they're often also more showy and tastier to animals, birds, and insects. So the pollen and the seeds are widely dispersed. I'm not sure you could find vegetables or fruit that are unaffected by human cultivation anymore.
Just off the top of my head, hucklberries and fiddleheads. Both can't be cultivated effectively, and wild stocks are where almost ALL commercial product comes from.
That's just off the top of my head.
What about paw paws?
elderberries?0 -
I'll eat my chemicals and be healthy too.
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I definitely don't want to drink sodium hypochlorite though...So some chemicals are quite deadly.0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?
Honestly?
Probably not. If it's edible (by which I mean tastes decent enough that you wouldn't spit it out), it's most likely either a cultivated variety that's run to seed, or a naturally occurring hybrid of one of those cultivated varieties.
You see, the interesting thing is that not only are the fruits and vegetables that humans have hybridized more tasty to humans ... they're often also more showy and tastier to animals, birds, and insects. So the pollen and the seeds are widely dispersed. I'm not sure you could find vegetables or fruit that are unaffected by human cultivation anymore.
Just off the top of my head, hucklberries and fiddleheads. Both can't be cultivated effectively, and wild stocks are where almost ALL commercial product comes from.
That's just off the top of my head.
Makes sense that things that are really difficult to cultivate would fall under that heading.
Went to look up huckleberries out of curiosity. Funny that the first hit that comes up is a pdf from the University of Iowa on how to cultivate your own huckleberry bushes.
It's not effective, otherwise it would be done widespread.
These little things run about $50 a gallon here, and when someone plants or transplants a huckleberry bush into a non-wild environment, it becomes fairly inspid and flaccid in flavor. Quite a surprise. Plenty of examples of that locally to me, where folks with stars in their eyes thought they'd be able to ride the hucklberry to financial success in a cash only/barter economy. lol.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »goddessofawesome wrote: »
Um, the dictionary?goddessofawesome wrote: »I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
nat·u·ral
ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
adjective
adjective: natural
1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.
So if I plant a tree, it's not natural?
Where'd you get that definition from?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
And actually yes. If you transplant a tree it's not natural. Case in point, another definition:
growing spontaneously, without being planted or tended by human hand, as vegetation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/natural
I suppose I should have known someone would nit-pick something as silly as the definition of natural.
Well then I think you've put this entire conversation to bed.
Congratulations everyone, you can all relax. Nothing you eat is natural. No matter how much you spend at Whole Foods. You're the same as the guy eating a Hungry Man microwaveable meal.
So, if I eat wild blackberries or crab apples, those are not natural?
Honestly?
Probably not. If it's edible (by which I mean tastes decent enough that you wouldn't spit it out), it's most likely either a cultivated variety that's run to seed, or a naturally occurring hybrid of one of those cultivated varieties.
You see, the interesting thing is that not only are the fruits and vegetables that humans have hybridized more tasty to humans ... they're often also more showy and tastier to animals, birds, and insects. So the pollen and the seeds are widely dispersed. I'm not sure you could find vegetables or fruit that are unaffected by human cultivation anymore.
I'm not sure that makes them not natural. If a man-altered seed is naturally planted and grown for years, decades or even centuries, is it still not natural? Once tainted, is it never again part of nature? But it's an interesting discussion.
If it is planted by humans, it already falls outside of some of the definitions of 'natural' bandied about in this thread. So, what do you mean by 'naturally planted and grown?'0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »peter56765 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »richardheath wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »richardheath wrote: »Labeling chemicals (as in added, or "man-made") as bad is part of the Naturalistic Fallacy: the idea that natural = good and unnatural = bad.
Couple of problems with this.
(1) Natural things, such as arsenic or digitoxin can most definitely be "bad" (in the sense that they will kill you).
(2) Humans are part of nature. We are not some supernatural creature. Therefore, whatever we make is actually also part of nature.
(3) Man-made chemicals are indistinguishable from their naturally occurring forms. Fructose made in the lab is the same as Fructose from a ripe heirloom fruit. Penicillin from a lab is the same as secreted by the Penicillium mold.
(4) Inanimate objects do have a moral sense, and so cannot be "good" or "bad". We have to take them in context and dosage. That digitoxin can be used to treat cancer (in a very carefully controlled dosage, which is easier done with a highly purified "unnatural" form than by feeding the patient foxgloves).
I think if you look up the definition of the word "nature", you'll find not everything above is true.
I'm sure you could find a definition of "nature" which states that anything that a human makes is, by definition, not part of nature. But why is an anthill natural but a house is not? A tool used by a chimp is natural, but a screwdriver is not? I would suggest such a definition is based on common usage, not on a hard and fast distinction of any sort.
Nature is the world outside of man. Nothing man-made is natural. Why? Because that's what the words mean. You can suggest an alternate definition, but unless it becomes the official definition it's just a misuse of the word. Which is kind of funny in this thread.
Pretty much every food you eat has been altered by man in some way. Before we got our grubby hands on them, "natural" corncobs were very small, apples were small, hard and sour, almonds were poisonous, sheep would attack you, and cows didn't have huge udders that produce far more milk than a calf could ever drink. Unless you are a hunter-gatherer, to a very large extent there are no "natural" foods anymore.
Even outside of our influence, nature isn't the elegant homeostatic system some people think it is. All species are constantly competing and evolving and extinction is a common occurrence. Dutch Elm Disease has destroyed most elm trees. European cave bears didn't survive the last Ice Age. Mammals ate dinosaur eggs. Countless plants, animals and single cell organisms have risen to prominence and than were out-competed by newer, better adapted organisms. Man is just the result of yet another species adapting to its ever changing environment.
There is no way to eat natural because nature itself is always changing and the very act of you being alive changes nature. The food you eat was produced by someone selecting one species to produce over another, and then systematically clearing land to produce that species. In the process, the existing species on the land were destroyed and the habitat was changed. Some organisms can adapt to that change. Others become marginalized or go extinct.
Um, okay? None of that changes the meaning of the words nature or natural.
Read it again. Everything you eat is man-made to a certain extent and there's really no such thing as eating natural anyway. For good or for bad, man is a part of the ecosystem he inhabits and therefore both affects it and is affected by it. There's no way to draw the line or make the distinction you are trying to make.0
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