Squat Pains a Plenty - Low Bar
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Did you experience pain during that set? For the first few reps, it looks like your knees are staying out and tracking over your toes (hard to tell because of the angle), but the last two it looks like there's some wiggle in your knees. Almost like they were caving inward, you saw it and tried to push them out. It may be that your knees are collapsing in and you really need to focus on pushing the knees out during the entire movement.smittybuilt19 wrote: »https://youtube.com/watch?v=wYNzS9ri5i0&feature=youtu.be
This was yesterday at lunch. I didn't get a front shot. I didn't read Jeff's reply until afterward. As I said yesterday, form is likely failing, I feel that I am approaching max work weight capacity.
Thanks.
The hardest thing I've found with lifting is that there is so much to think about. I realize this part of my form is off, so I really focus on it, and then something else goes to *kitten*. Focus on that, and the first thing starts going wrong again.
I do think it's a form issue, and maybe some others can chime in with some suggestions too.
Very little to no pain in that set. Last two reps were def fight or flight.
I do also post in the form critique of ETP. They are the reason I have made it this far, my squats were horrendous in the beginning lol.
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So a couple thoughts, push those elbows forward, that should help raise your chest, and combat some of the core collapse happening. Also, make sure you're bracing your core. Big belly breath in, brace *kitten* hard, and squat. From what I can see, you aren't bracing up, and that's going to be important for heavier squats.
There's a bit of knee wiggle in the last couple reps, it looks like your knee comes out and then wiggles in, might be something to look at.
What does your spotter see with your form?
I do know my chest is failing. I feel that the bar will fall off my back when I push the elbows more forward. When that happens I start supporting the bar with my hands (you know what that does to my wrists and elbows).
From the start (about 1.5 yr) core bracing, or lack of, has been pointed out to me in nearly every critique but I just can't wrap my head around how to do it. I do take a deep breath at the top into my belly but the tightness seems to disappear during the descent (even though I'm still holding my breath in the hole.
Spotter doesn't understand what I'm doing, he's just there to make sure I don't die lol. He says I inspire him
enough said haha.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »So a couple thoughts, push those elbows forward, that should help raise your chest, and combat some of the core collapse happening. Also, make sure you're bracing your core. Big belly breath in, brace *kitten* hard, and squat. From what I can see, you aren't bracing up, and that's going to be important for heavier squats.
There's a bit of knee wiggle in the last couple reps, it looks like your knee comes out and then wiggles in, might be something to look at.
What does your spotter see with your form?
Aside from that, I would suggest a video from the front as well so we can better see what your knees and feet are doing. In addition to what was mentioned, it seems like you need to improve your core strength a little. Some work on your abs, obliques, and low back is warranted, possibly some separate glute work as well. Something like back raises can address the low back and glutes.
I will try to get a front shot when I squat again Friday.0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »Core work. Try doing light front squats. If you are doing sitting shoulder presses or OHP, do them standing up. Power cleans. And the normal planks, sit ups, supermans etc...
Will start trying more core work. I only don't do core work because I mostly hear "you don't need ab or core work when doing SL or SS type workouts." Although it seems to be unanimous that I am lacking in strength in that specific area.What I kept seeing consistently is that he's standing in two motions.... *kitten* rises up, then he starts bringing up the chest. That should be one movement without levering. It can potentially be tied to two reasons, abdominal collapse due to lack of proper bracing, or just too much forward lean preventing a single upward movement.
Screwing those elbows forward will help raise that chest and let the chest and back rise as the hips do.
The squats aren't too bad, I know when I get tired, my squats start looking like that two beat standing motion, but it's not optimal. It also feels like you're losing a lot of leverage. Anyway, just my uneducated opinion.
The elbows forward seems to be what would provide the most improvement in theory, it just scares the hell out of me to do it. Like I said earlier, the bar (although I keep my back tight and feel a good "shelf") starts to fall and I support it with my arms which of course hurts like *kitten* and takes my mind completely off of the current set and on to not dropping the weight.
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Trying to find a pic of elbows in. here. Her grip is more narrow than I could do but her elbows are well in. should help stabilize the bar so it doesn't feel like it's slipping down
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JeffseekingV wrote: »Trying to find a pic of elbows in. here. Her grip is more narrow than I could do but her elbows are well in. should help stabilize the bar so it doesn't feel like it's slipping down
Squat with elbows in like that and it's only a matter of time before your wrists are trashed followed by your elbows. No offense, but I've never heard of "elbows-in" as a cue for keeping the chest raised. You need your wrists straight which will prohibit your elbows from being close to your body, but in doing so you'll have a safe "shelf" for the weight and you won't feel like your wrists/elbows/arms are holding the weight, which, if you lift with elbows in, that's essentially what is happening to an extent. Lifting the chest is simply something you need to learn. Sorry that's boring advice but it's truthful. And OP-your squats aren't bad but my simple advice would be to deload and work on form. Also, strengthening your quads, lower back and abs (basically the "core" as already mentioned) will help as well.
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It's not a matter of moving the elbows closer into the core. I can't, my shoulder mo sucks the big one.
It's about trying to get those elbows as close to vertical as you can. OP, I get what you're saying about it feeling like it might fall off you, but really it probably won't.
Besides, your spotter looks spry, he can dance out of the way before it gets him. If you maintain solidly braced shoulders and arms, that bar isn't going to be moving. The arms aren't there for decoration or to hang out like noodles, it's there to brace that bar on to you. Squeeze them, hard.
I don't know about others, but something I try to do when I squat is I try to keep my core, back, shoulders and arms all rigid, because that helps me keep my core braced. I don't know how to describe the bracing for you, other than, breathe deep in, let that air fill your lungs and push your diaphragm down, then you squeeze those abs out (like when you make your core solid before someone punches you in the gut), at this point I personally think about trying to push as much air into that area as I can to increase pressure. (Granted it's impossible to push air to do that, but it's a mental cue.)
Then I rip it. As I'm coming up, about 1/2 way up if the lift isn't a killer is when I'll breathe out, but if I can think, I'm thinking about nipples and elbows forward and up, and to keep my stomach hard, rigid, and expanded.0 -
I would definitely recommend dropping the weight while you work on the form. I might recommend a few things, but keep in mind I've got a bit less than a year of squatting under my belt, so take it with a grain of salt
You might try a thumbless grip. I had a tendency to try to push the bar up and forward when i was gripping around the bar, which seemed to put me more into a good morning. I did find improvement switching to thumbless.
Think about driving your hips not just up, but forward as well as you rise to the top of your rep. Imagine doing a vertical equivalent of hip thrusts. When you get to the top, work on squeezing your glutes. Again, with lighter weights so you can control it. Thinking of moving those hips forward instead of up was helpful for me to keep my chest up.
A couple people mentioned using a belt as well. While you don't need a belt to stabilize yourself, it's nice to wear one a few times to really work on keeping the core tight.0 -
Your squat is better than the photo and not that bad. You absolutely do not want elbows vertical and bent wrists. Wrists straight, elbows up. Don't look in the mirror. Keep a neutral head position the whole way. Depth is good. The last few reps the hip rose faster than the chest. Take a deep breath at the top and use the valsalva pattern. You will take a deep breath into the stomach and push out. This protects your spine. I can't tell your foot stance too well on that video, but heels should about shoulder width or a little bit more with toes about 30 degrees out. The bar should move vertical over the middle over your foot.
Read though and Google Rippetoe and Squats. If you have the funds, buy Starting Strength 3rd edition.0 -
Leadfoot_Lewis wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »Trying to find a pic of elbows in. here. Her grip is more narrow than I could do but her elbows are well in. should help stabilize the bar so it doesn't feel like it's slipping down
Squat with elbows in like that and it's only a matter of time before your wrists are trashed followed by your elbows. No offense, but I've never heard of "elbows-in" as a cue for keeping the chest raised. You need your wrists straight which will prohibit your elbows from being close to your body, but in doing so you'll have a safe "shelf" for the weight and you won't feel like your wrists/elbows/arms are holding the weight, which, if you lift with elbows in, that's essentially what is happening to an extent. Lifting the chest is simply something you need to learn. Sorry that's boring advice but it's truthful. And OP-your squats aren't bad but my simple advice would be to deload and work on form. Also, strengthening your quads, lower back and abs (basically the "core" as already mentioned) will help as well.
I think elbows in- is not in close to the body- although I was taught to be narrower rather than wider on the grip and therefor the elbows- but rather than flaring the elbows BACK- they tuck forward and almost help press the chest up.
I kind of my elbows having a bar or plate in them that runs through my rib cage and as I drive up through the floor- the more I keep my elbows pinned forward- the more I can help push my chest up.
Different cues for different people.
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I think elbows in- is not in close to the body- although I was taught to be narrower rather than wider on the grip and therefor the elbows- but rather than flaring the elbows BACK- they tuck forward and almost help press the chest up.
I kind of my elbows having a bar or plate in them that runs through my rib cage and as I drive up through the floor- the more I keep my elbows pinned forward- the more I can help push my chest up.
Different cues for different people.
It's not the elbows that are so much the problem as the bent-back wrist position - do you really think you should be supporting your BW or more with just your wrists? I stand by it being a crappy cue. I'd rather have a client practice something like Supermans on the floor to get the mind-muscle connection of what back extension (which puts the chest up) feels like. Teach them to stay tight in the core (back extension) which will again, automatically keep the chest up. If they can't stay tight then work on strength & mobility (as I stated in my other post)
Also...your grip width should be whatever width will allow you to have straight wrists. Someone with poor wrist flexibility will have a very wide grip on the bar, but that's irrelevant to this anyway..
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No I don't think the wrists should be support the weight- but I do think the elbows shouldn't be all flared out to the back- typically that's a sign of a caved chest that the core isn't supporting. I can't say I've seen anyone with a solid squat with elbows flared out behind them.0
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If you're doing that, it's probably a very stupid thing to do. You have your traps and lats to hold that *kitten*, use it. Your hands are there to keep the bar stable.Leadfoot_Lewis wrote: »
It's not the elbows that are so much the problem as the bent-back wrist position - do you really think you should be supporting your BW or more with just your wrists?
I didn't think it had to be said, but apparently it does.
It's called a back squat because the bar goes on your back, resting on the back of your shoulders, and as an extension your skeletal system. If you're trying to hold the bar up with your arms, knock it off, you're in for a bad time. Same with a front squat. It's called a front squat because the bar sits trapped on your delts and your hands keep it trapped and stable. IF you're trying to hold the bar up with your arms, knock it off, you're in for a bad tie.
Also, if you're flaring your elbows back, you're in for a bad time. You push those elbows forward to get your chest up.
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No I don't think the wrists should be support the weight- but I do think the elbows shouldn't be all flared out to the back- typically that's a sign of a caved chest that the core isn't supporting. I can't say I've seen anyone with a solid squat with elbows flared out behind them.
Really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-8wyACXv8
I can post many more examples if you'd like. This is one of the gentlemen that taught me how to squat. It is VERY common with a Low Bar Back Squat to have your elbows up. The elbow in which everyone keeps going on about is more common in a High Bar Squat,where you do lead out of the hole with the chest more so than a Low Squat, where hip drive gets you out. Unless I read the title wrong, high bar is not how the OP is lifting.
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Watch the video, that doesn't look low bar.0
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To me, it doesn't look like a particularly high bar squat either, but it's hard to tell the bar position because the plates are in the way.Watch the video, that doesn't look low bar.
I do see some form issues in several of the squat videos in this thread, and I feel like I do a lot of them. If nothing else, this conversation has really made me think about how I can improve my own squats...0 -
Body position is different on a low bar, from what I've read, I lack the mo to do one.
Looks to me as a hb back squat, but a different angle would be needed to determine that.0 -
I have to come back and read all this again. I'm terrified of low bar. It feels absolutely horrible to me.0
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Leadfoot_Lewis wrote: »No I don't think the wrists should be support the weight- but I do think the elbows shouldn't be all flared out to the back- typically that's a sign of a caved chest that the core isn't supporting. I can't say I've seen anyone with a solid squat with elbows flared out behind them.
Really?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-8wyACXv8
I can post many more examples if you'd like. This is one of the gentlemen that taught me how to squat. It is VERY common with a Low Bar Back Squat to have your elbows up. The elbow in which everyone keeps going on about is more common in a High Bar Squat,where you do lead out of the hole with the chest more so than a Low Squat, where hip drive gets you out. Unless I read the title wrong, high bar is not how the OP is lifting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd8Tzt5VS1w
There are other top level lifters who squat this same way. There is no right or wrong way per say, but you should be supporting the weight on your traps and rear delts.0 -
Bro, do you even forum?LolBroScience wrote: »Leadfoot_Lewis wrote: »No I don't think the wrists should be support the weight- but I do think the elbows shouldn't be all flared out to the back- typically that's a sign of a caved chest that the core isn't supporting. I can't say I've seen anyone with a solid squat with elbows flared out behind them.
Really?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-8wyACXv8
I can post many more examples if you'd like. This is one of the gentlemen that taught me how to squat. It is VERY common with a Low Bar Back Squat to have your elbows up. The elbow in which everyone keeps going on about is more common in a High Bar Squat,where you do lead out of the hole with the chest more so than a Low Squat, where hip drive gets you out. Unless I read the title wrong, high bar is not how the OP is lifting.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd8Tzt5VS1w
ETA - his eyes keep following me.0 -
^ Touche.0
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Just quote my post to see how to get them to embed.0
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Low bar squat with elbows tucked
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RMFHgVN_pcg 0 -
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For a bit you could just post the youtube link and the phpBB forum software would just put the youtube clip embedded inline, then they turned it off, and now we have to do the silly youtube tag.0
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Folks I greatly appreciate the advice. This is the point where I become confused, doubt my abilities, and focus on wayyy too many cues. In the past I've hit a point like this, scrapped my form all together, started over. I am now back to the amount I was squatting 3 months ago, and don't want to revert. (I do realize I may need to slow the progression and maybe back off 10% to work on form)
I will summarize what I feel like has been said here to most likely help me fix the problem.
1) Core strength needs work
2) Chest up, wrists straight, elbows as far forward as possible
3) Possibly narrow stance a bit to alleviate the original issue: femoral head pain.
Thanks for all the input y'all! I will hopefully post a front shot tomorrow.0 -
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smittybuilt19 wrote: »Thank you. I appear to be slightly wider than shoulder width when un-loaded and purposely looking at stance width, however, when loaded and lifting I think I may be going wider than that and it is really starting to hurt as the weight increases.
Just curious, but when squatting, how are your knees? The should follow in line with your toes, if that makes any sense. I used to like wide stance but found that my knees drooped inwards causing a significant amount of pressure on them. When I switched to a shoulder width stance, it felt more natural for my knees to follow my toes.
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BenjaminMFP88 wrote: »smittybuilt19 wrote: »Thank you. I appear to be slightly wider than shoulder width when un-loaded and purposely looking at stance width, however, when loaded and lifting I think I may be going wider than that and it is really starting to hurt as the weight increases.
Just curious, but when squatting, how are your knees? The should follow in line with your toes, if that makes any sense. I used to like wide stance but found that my knees drooped inwards causing a significant amount of pressure on them. When I switched to a shoulder width stance, it felt more natural for my knees to follow my toes.
*I* feel like my knees do ok during the lift but I need to get some footage to verify. Also, just a side note, my issues aren't knee pain, but hip area pain, think femoral head.
I have in the past definitely had issues with caving from being too wide in the stance and it caused knee pain for sure.
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LolBroScience wrote: »Leadfoot_Lewis wrote: »No I don't think the wrists should be support the weight- but I do think the elbows shouldn't be all flared out to the back- typically that's a sign of a caved chest that the core isn't supporting. I can't say I've seen anyone with a solid squat with elbows flared out behind them.
Really?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-8wyACXv8
I can post many more examples if you'd like. This is one of the gentlemen that taught me how to squat. It is VERY common with a Low Bar Back Squat to have your elbows up. The elbow in which everyone keeps going on about is more common in a High Bar Squat,where you do lead out of the hole with the chest more so than a Low Squat, where hip drive gets you out. Unless I read the title wrong, high bar is not how the OP is lifting.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd8Tzt5VS1w
There are other top level lifters who squat this same way. There is no right or wrong way per say, but you should be supporting the weight on your traps and rear delts.
Lord have mercy that's a whole bunch of man right there...
...oh, all hetero.
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