Good Strength Training for Abs (without crunches) ?

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  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
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    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    I have a 400lb squat and I think they are the single best exercise that can be done for functional strength and athletic performance.
    I do believe I intend to catch you soon.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    Ugh... people should do a little more than DL's and Squat's. Prescribing those 2 exercises on this site is like doctors prescribing anti-biotics. You have a runny nose, take this Zpac. You want to improve core strength, overall strength, have a nice *kitten*, and solve world hunger, squat and deadlift.


    Hi. you must be new here.

    There are only about 10 people on this site who actually know anything. The rest of us just regurgitate what we've heard in hopes that the cool people will accept us into their circle of friends.
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
    edited December 2014
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    dbmata wrote: »
    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    I have a 400lb squat and I think they are the single best exercise that can be done for functional strength and athletic performance.
    I do believe I intend to catch you soon.

    I'm sure you will, you work hard enough.
  • Cherimoose
    Cherimoose Posts: 5,209 Member
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    JoRocka wrote: »
    Well you skipped the "people pulling on their spines" bit. that's usually where I see the most damage- but there is quite a lot of research that shows the low back risk as well.

    http://www.peaksportsandspinept.com/articles/whysitupsareabadidea.cfm

    Funny how he says the situp movement "is something we just don't do" in daily life, and then proceeds to recommend that we get face-down with a giant inflatable ball between our legs and roll from side to side. For the life of me i can't recall ever doing this in daily life. B)
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
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    Cherimoose wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    Well you skipped the "people pulling on their spines" bit. that's usually where I see the most damage- but there is quite a lot of research that shows the low back risk as well.

    http://www.peaksportsandspinept.com/articles/whysitupsareabadidea.cfm

    Funny how he says the situp movement "is something we just don't do" in daily life, and then proceeds to recommend that we get face-down with a giant inflatable ball between our legs and roll from side to side. For the life of me i can't recall ever doing this in daily life. B)

    No, but you do turn and twist your body. The purpose of those exercise is to perform some kind of anti-rotational exercise on an unstable surface. An exercise like that would engage all core musculature in a means that would minimize risk to the lumbar spine. The information presented in that link is similar to information communicated from Dr. McGill.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    ^^^ and those muscles along the back that are involved in twisting- are typically the ones that get pulled- from some thing as simple as bending down to pick up suitcase/briefcase.
    zipa78 wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    do leg raises or L sits- way safer- and promote more growth in other places as well.

    and isn't a hip flexor a tendon?

    Sure, or mountain climbers, cable from kicks or whatnot. I'm not saying that sit-ups are a marvellous exercise, I'm just saying that it isn't bad because it mostly stresses the hip flexors.

    "Hip flexor" is usually used as a collective term for describing the muscles connecting the pelvis/spine to the thighs. Just like the term "rotator cuff" describes the myriad of small muscles and tendons in your shoulder.

    But it can be- I know most people have overly tight hip flexors based on the fact they are sitting so much- so doing a sit up where you're essentially already semi contracted- and only contracting it more- coupled with the other issues.

    It's just not a good combination.

    And you're right mountain climbers also- which is one reason I don't do them.

    And when I say hip flexor- no- I mean the actual hip flexor. not the general front region of my hips.
  • RECowgill
    RECowgill Posts: 881 Member
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    Deadlifts and squats (especially deadlifts). I never do crunches or sit-ups, and my core has never been in better shape,
  • rsclause
    rsclause Posts: 3,103 Member
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    Mostly to put a time limit on it, I finish my workout (running, Nautilus set) daily with Planks. I do 30 seconds of plank and 30 seconds rest alternating side, front, side and a crunch set. It takes 16 minutes and seems to do what I need. All the other Ab workouts just kept adding time as they got harder so I made up my own.
  • goddessofawesome
    goddessofawesome Posts: 563 Member
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    yoovie wrote: »
    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    Ugh... people should do a little more than DL's and Squat's. Prescribing those 2 exercises on this site is like doctors prescribing anti-biotics.

    that's not really fair.

    I never even heard of deadlifting til I had been active on this site's forums for about 2 months.

    I'll continue to mention the basics so new people that still think that crunches and curls are basics can be saved from a lot of wasted effort :(

    What's wrong with doing crunches and curls?

  • goddessofawesome
    goddessofawesome Posts: 563 Member
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    JoRocka wrote: »
    curved spine people usually pulling on their neck and using more hip flexor than abs.

    It's just ineffective and causes more problems than worth the potential pay off.

    That's because they don't know how to do them correctly. And exercise done incorrectly is ineffective.
  • LACnessMonster
    LACnessMonster Posts: 25 Member
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    Planks. Mountain Climbers. Burpees. Yoga. A lot of the flow, if performed correctly requires a bit of core strength to hold the poses, and it's big on not putting a ton of strain on the neck in the basic form. Squats and Deadlifts are good as well if that's your jam.
  • graytausn1
    graytausn1 Posts: 4
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    http://neilarey.com/muscle-map.html

    It's a bunch of bodyweight exercises for your core and other body parts.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    goddessofawesome wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    curved spine people usually pulling on their neck and using more hip flexor than abs.

    It's just ineffective and causes more problems than worth the potential pay off.

    That's because they don't know how to do them correctly. And exercise done incorrectly is ineffective.

    I would agree to a point. But there are SO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO- that are less difficult to mess up and are more effective.

    The trade off for risk/reward just isn't there.

    Squats have high reward- so the 'risk' is worth it.

    Crunches- seriously? it's just NOT worth it considering there are so many other more effective exercises to add to the tool box.
  • Leadfoot_Lewis
    Leadfoot_Lewis Posts: 1,623 Member
    edited December 2014
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    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    Ugh... people should do a little more than DL's and Squat's. Prescribing those 2 exercises on this site is like doctors prescribing anti-biotics. You have a runny nose, take this Zpac. You want to improve core strength, overall strength, have a nice *kitten*, and solve world hunger, squat and deadlift. While those two lifts do actively engage your core muscles; they are not the end-all-be-all to core training. For an overall stability and healthy (injury prevention) stand-point, you should do some separate core training.

    Great post - I agree 100%. Like you I am not knocking the benefits of Deadlifts and Squats (as I do both weekly) but I believe that if you truly want to build and/or strengthen a muscle you need to isolate it. Another thing people forget (or may not know?) is the other isolated function of the Rectus Abdominis is Spinal Flexion. While isometric Ab work is great (e.g. Deadlift & Squats) I believe the other function of the Rectus Abdominis need to be strengthened via Weighted Crunches, Leg Raises, etc., etc.
  • Leadfoot_Lewis
    Leadfoot_Lewis Posts: 1,623 Member
    edited December 2014
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    double post...

  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
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    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    dbmata wrote: »
    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    I have a 400lb squat and I think they are the single best exercise that can be done for functional strength and athletic performance.
    I do believe I intend to catch you soon.

    I'm sure you will, you work hard enough.

    I did some dl stance box squats today, did two singles and a triple at 405. That weight REALLY sucks to have on your back. lol.
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
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    Cherimoose wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    Well you skipped the "people pulling on their spines" bit. that's usually where I see the most damage- but there is quite a lot of research that shows the low back risk as well.

    http://www.peaksportsandspinept.com/articles/whysitupsareabadidea.cfm

    Funny how he says the situp movement "is something we just don't do" in daily life, and then proceeds to recommend that we get face-down with a giant inflatable ball between our legs and roll from side to side. For the life of me i can't recall ever doing this in daily life. B)

    This isn't daily life granted, but I do plenty of situp like movements when rock and alpine climbing.
  • yoovie
    yoovie Posts: 17,121 Member
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    goddessofawesome wrote: »
    yoovie wrote: »
    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    Ugh... people should do a little more than DL's and Squat's. Prescribing those 2 exercises on this site is like doctors prescribing anti-biotics.

    that's not really fair.

    I never even heard of deadlifting til I had been active on this site's forums for about 2 months.

    I'll continue to mention the basics so new people that still think that crunches and curls are basics can be saved from a lot of wasted effort :(

    What's wrong with doing crunches and curls?

    nothing. I didn't say there was anything at all wrong with them on the entire planet on which humanity exists - as well as the space stations, current orbiting astronauts and anyone who snuck on Mars - there is nothing wrong.

  • yoovie
    yoovie Posts: 17,121 Member
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    JoRocka wrote: »
    goddessofawesome wrote: »
    JoRocka wrote: »
    curved spine people usually pulling on their neck and using more hip flexor than abs.

    It's just ineffective and causes more problems than worth the potential pay off.

    That's because they don't know how to do them correctly. And exercise done incorrectly is ineffective.

    I would agree to a point. But there are SO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO- that are less difficult to mess up and are more effective.

    The trade off for risk/reward just isn't there.

    Squats have high reward- so the 'risk' is worth it.

    Crunches- seriously? it's just NOT worth it considering there are so many other more effective exercises to add to the tool box.

    I think of crunches as the bodyweight equivalent of doing 10 pounds on the lat pull machine....

    500 times*.

    *due to my personal current abilities.


  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
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    Don't look silly at those 500 rep bonuses. ;)

    My trainer's doing this for fun as a competition between him and his brother, 500 reps of something, every day, AFTER the main workout is complete.

    I'm going to try that later in the year, when I switch to hypertrophy focused eventually.

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